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Because we've got a Wolves player in my store and he kicks a pretty decent amount of butt.
We play 1500pt games where I field a single battalion
The core is
Hqs
Wolf Lord with jumpack (th/ss, wulfenstone)
The second Hq is either a battle leader (same gear as the wolf Lord) or a Runepriest with jumpack (armour of russ)
Troops are a mix of 5 man greyhunters and intercessors
A stormfang
5xlongfangs (4xlascannon or 4xplasma cannon)
Then I use either wulfen or thunderwolves (5 man squad)
Sometimes a ven dread with twin las/missile as support antitank or terminators with a mix of combi plasma stormshields and power fists
Sometimes I use 1-2 razorbacks
Does your friend use forge world or guard/Knight allies???
All in all I feel like I am missing 200-250 (1-2 units) points when I play with the current point cost against the armies I mentioned
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 13:31:32
The Newman wrote: Kraks are better against T3-T6 and T8-T11 multi-wound targets. That's actually quite a range in theory. In practice there aren't a lot of T4- multi-wound targets and a lot of armor is clustered at T7.
More shots is almost always better except in very nitch situations...basically t5. Even if you are getting a little better odds on a krak it's still practically better because you average more hits.
You are mistaken. All other things being equal a Heavy 1, Dd6 is mathematically identical to a Heavy d6, D1 provided you're shooting at something with more than one wound, and multi-wound targets are hardly a niche situation. The reason multi-shot weapons are considered better is that most of them are not over-paying for a high AP that they won't get to use on account of all the invuln saves and because you won't always have a target with more than one wound. More shots is better on average, but not due to any inherent mathematical advantage when calculating expected damage.
The average damage of any given weapon on any given target is [to-hit %] x [average shots] x [to-wound %] x [failed save %] x [average damage]. It doesn't matter what order those are in if the numbers are the same (basic transitive property) so if your math is saying a Heavy 1, Dd6 does less average damage than a Heavy d6, D1 with the other stats being equal then you've done something wrong. Since a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots, 1 damage and a Krak grenade is 1 shot, 2 damage average with the same AP then the only number that matters for average damage over time is the to-wound %, and I shouldn't have to spell out how an S4 and an S6 compare on that front to anyone here.
Not quite. The D D6 will do 3.5 on average. The D6 D1 will do 3.5 shots. So vs two wound models -say Intercessors, I'd rather shoot the D6 D1's and take out one and a half intercessors over REALLY taking out the one. Your theory is right, but you didn't account for multi-wound above the average wound characteristic. Vs a 20 wound tank model, you're right, it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other. When the wound number is lower than the average - not just 1 - there is a difference.
You must have missed the part where I explicitly said multi-wound models, and the implicit part where there aren't all that many multi-wound models that don't have six or more wounds outside of Marines.
And in-context were talking about a Dd3 weapon, so the average isn't more wounds than a Primaris Marine even I wasn't specifically talking about shooting tanks with the ruddy thing.
You're not wrong, just pendantic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/19 13:50:56
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
You can't spam unit anymore. Rule of 3.
Guilliman has a great aura but causes armies to be static. In the current meta he is not a top unit and lists around him don't work due to this.
I think you're stuck in the game from 18 months ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/19 14:48:09
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
It's possible. Gman is still showing up in tournaments and doing better than any other marine config on average. Their design philosophy is very opaque, so we really can't tell for sure.
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
It's possible. Gman is still showing up in tournaments and doing better than any other marine config on average. Their design philosophy is very opaque, so we really can't tell for sure.
He's showing up, but he's not doing better. Blood Angels have won more events or performed better recently. Show me where you're getting your info.
If you actually knew anything about the meta you'd know that the hot new Astartes list involves Imperial Fist Centurions in their new Vigilus detachment.
Removed - BrookM
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 17:11:43
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
You can't spam unit anymore. Rule of 3.
Guilliman has a great aura but causes armies to be static. In the current meta he is not a top unit and lists around him don't work due to this.
I think you're stuck in the game from 18 months ago.
You can't spam not troops.
I've seen way too many guardsmen spamming list and grot spamming lists to believe that spamming is dead, you just need actually worth their points troops, something that marines lack.
Also you keep saying just bring an appropriate list, how do you balance a list to give a casual marine list a non blow out game yet still actually having the right level of fist fight brawling units to take on IG lists, oh it's just a fluffy list, aye because 60 guardsmen 3 tank commanders stracken bullgryns and some sentinels really pulls a lot of power out of you mono codex list?
Marines and even choas marine's sufferer from GW fundamental failure to understand the consequential impacts of the deaign decisions they make.
The variability both within and between codex's is far to high for game to allow competitive lists and casual play 40k to be enjoyable.
You can say build a better list scrub or whatever witty dig I'm sure your going to post but the power per point spread in the game is currently a problem.
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
It's possible. Gman is still showing up in tournaments and doing better than any other marine config on average. Their design philosophy is very opaque, so we really can't tell for sure.
He's showing up, but he's not doing better. Blood Angels have won more events or performed better recently. Show me where you're getting your info.
If you actually knew anything about the meta you'd know that the hot new Astartes list involves Imperial Fist Centurions in their new Vigilus detachment.
Removed - BrookM
To be fair that was made specifically for a team tournament style event and not a singles tournament. The podcast interview with him has him even stating he wouldn't take it to a singles. You have to look at lists in respect to the tournament format it was made for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/19 17:12:19
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
You can't spam unit anymore. Rule of 3.
Guilliman has a great aura but causes armies to be static. In the current meta he is not a top unit and lists around him don't work due to this.
I think you're stuck in the game from 18 months ago.
Tell that to GW, they've posted a second g-man parking lot list that went 5-0 at a tournament. Two spearheads; one a Techmarine and three Heavy Bolter sponson Predators (?!?), the other a Techmarine, three squads of Elimininators and two dakka Repulsors, and g-man himself. Might have been another Captain in there somewhere.
Weird that GW is going out of their way to point out that g-man keeps featuring in tournament winning Marine lists but don't seem to notice that it indicates a balance issue.
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
You can't spam unit anymore. Rule of 3.
Guilliman has a great aura but causes armies to be static. In the current meta he is not a top unit and lists around him don't work due to this.
I think you're stuck in the game from 18 months ago.
Tell that to GW, they've posted a second g-man parking lot list that went 5-0 at a tournament. Two spearheads; one a Techmarine and three Heavy Bolter sponson Predators (?!?), the other a Techmarine, three squads of Elimininators and two dakka Repulsors, and g-man himself. Might have been another Captain in there somewhere.
Weird that GW is going out of their way to point out that g-man keeps featuring in tournament winning Marine lists but don't seem to notice that it indicates a balance issue.
What tournaments and what type of game was played? I've won a local 8 man even with Guilliman. Does that indicate anything?
Also why shouldn't Guilliman be a strong option? Lol are you upset that the Ultras are one of the better codex chapter options for the first time since prior to 6th edition?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/19 16:34:40
He re-roll wounds aura rewards players for taking the wrong weapons for the targets.
Just more volume is better that's not a list that's a poor design choice and basic school maths.
They could have given him use 1 codex spacemarine strategum for free each turn and he would have been less broken.
And I say that as a now ex ultramarine player.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 16:53:32
Ice_can wrote: He re-roll wounds aura rewards players for taking the wrong weapons for the targets.
Just more volume is better that's not a list that's a poor design choice and basic school maths.
They could have given him use 1 codex spacemarine strategum for free each turn and he would have been less broken.
And I say that as a now ex ultramarine player.
It's not just Gman. He amplifies the effect. But the onslought gatling series is way better vs IKs than many other weapons that should be better instead.
Ice_can wrote: He re-roll wounds aura rewards players for taking the wrong weapons for the targets.
Just more volume is better that's not a list that's a poor design choice and basic school maths.
They could have given him use 1 codex spacemarine strategum for free each turn and he would have been less broken.
And I say that as a now ex ultramarine player.
Codex space marines has trash stratagems. That is a bad example. The army basically has no chapter tactic. You have to give up good tactics to use him and it only makes sense to use him with high ROF weapons because for high str weapons a reroll 1's to wound bubble is just fine. Keep in mind - the army still isn't every good even with a reroll every aura. I agree that if marines price is being inflated by his aura that is is a bad design choice. Cause not even ultra marines are automatically going to be using his aura. They might not bring him and it's only 6".
Like seriously - you can't charge one unit more because another unit exists. You should charge each unit based on it's ability in a 2000 point game. I can assure you. At 400 point GMan is probably overcosted at 2k points. He was fine at 360.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
SW honestly have some pretty dirty tricks using index units and cheap storm shields. I'm not sure if that's what is happening here. It's not enough in the competitive scene to really be a force, though.
lonewolf81 wrote: Marines get reroll morale (worst possible rule) while other armies get cool mechanics like orders, power from pain, dakka dakka etc on top of their " chapter tactics“ which by the way affect more units in the army (vehicles). Also mainly shooty armies like dark eldar, imperial guard etc have better melee than SpaceWolves for example, grotesques, bulgrins are better than wulfen/ thunderwolves point for point. I hope gw gives all marines a big boost because if you don't play guiliman you are pretty much autoloose against all other armies as a pure marine army (this is a fact not only in the competitive scene but also in casual games)
What kind of "casual" games do you play?
In my meta i mostly play against eldar ,dark eldar, imperial guard, orks... with my wolves. I must be really lucky not to get wiped of the board. If i go second and my opponets dont roll bad i will loose most of the time because they field more units than me.
Their lists got toned down by using highlander house rules so they cant spam their best units and to have more variety on the board but still an uphill battle simply because they have more effective units for less points
PS : i strongly believe that marines are not getting point decreases because of guiliman's reroll everything aura. The minute a unit gets cheaper, it will be spammed next to guiliman in the tournament scenes (which then affects everyone through FAQ changes etc). They should rework his aura to reroll 1s to wound and not every failed wound roll
You can't spam unit anymore. Rule of 3.
Guilliman has a great aura but causes armies to be static. In the current meta he is not a top unit and lists around him don't work due to this.
I think you're stuck in the game from 18 months ago.
Tell that to GW, they've posted a second g-man parking lot list that went 5-0 at a tournament. Two spearheads; one a Techmarine and three Heavy Bolter sponson Predators (?!?), the other a Techmarine, three squads of Elimininators and two dakka Repulsors, and g-man himself. Might have been another Captain in there somewhere.
Weird that GW is going out of their way to point out that g-man keeps featuring in tournament winning Marine lists but don't seem to notice that it indicates a balance issue.
What tournaments and what type of game was played? I've won a local 8 man even with Guilliman. Does that indicate anything?
Also why shouldn't Guilliman be a strong option? Lol are you upset that the Ultras are one of the better codex chapter options for the first time since prior to 6th edition?
2) I don't care if Ultramarines are good, I care if inter-faction balance is bad. G-man seems to be contributing to balance being bad because he's pretty good in a UM army and all the shared Marine units appear to be balanced around him, despite most factions not being able to fully benefit from taking him.
Full disclosure, I also have a problem with an army even appearing to be designed around a named character. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere outside of narrative games and definitely shouldn't be allowed in competitive events, especially in a game that encourages you to "roll your own" faction but forbids named characters if you do so. I don't think GW should even print point values for named characters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 17:58:55
Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ishagu wrote: Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ironic that as I recall various Marine focussed players stating that it must be so, Marines deserve it and F&%K anyone else who should merely wait quietly until all the important Marine dexes were done and be glad that there might be time for anyone else anyway.
The codexes were speedily pushed out- shame really as the rules could have remained in Index form with a regular update and the essential lore been in Campaign books and new faction Codexes.
So a Crusade Book and linked Index update book, same for Xenos races and Chaos Powers - but I guess they figured they could (and did) would sell the Codexes yet gain with mostly the same old fluff and art
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Ishagu wrote: Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ironic that as I recall various Marine focussed players stating that it must be so, Marines deserve it and F&%K anyone else who should merely wait quietly until all the important Marine dexes were done and be glad that there might be time for anyone else anyway.
The codexes were speedily pushed out- shame really as the rules could have remained in Index form with a regular update and the essential lore been in Campaign books and new faction Codexes.
So a Crusade Book and linked Index update book, same for Xenos races and Chaos Powers - but I guess they figured they could (and did) would sell the Codexes yet gain with mostly the same old fluff and art
Yeah, and they are wrong. The actual game testers themselves say that Guilliman is not connected to the pricing of other units and has potentially been costed too high (stated on the FLG podcast and Chapter Tactics).
What's your evidence to the contrary beyond a few frustrated players not happy with the performance of the codex? Or are you stating opinions as facts?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 18:25:59
Ishagu wrote: Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ironic that as I recall various Marine focussed players stating that it must be so, Marines deserve it and F&%K anyone else who should merely wait quietly until all the important Marine dexes were done and be glad that there might be time for anyone else anyway.
The codexes were speedily pushed out- shame really as the rules could have remained in Index form with a regular update and the essential lore been in Campaign books and new faction Codexes.
So a Crusade Book and linked Index update book, same for Xenos races and Chaos Powers - but I guess they figured they could (and did) would sell the Codexes yet gain with mostly the same old fluff and art
They are just looking for a reason why everything in the army is 20% overcosted compared to top units from other codex. I mean...I think with a buff like gmans it does make it more difficult to balance the army internally but the formula should be a high cost for gman himself which he already had. I think Gman probably has a lot to do with GW doing nothing to fix marines because they listen to a bunch of newbie fluff players that complain about people getting all the rerolls! "How can I beat a guy that gets to reroll everything?" - ofc the simple answer is to kill the fragile units gman is buffing and soon hes got nothing to buff anymore. They actually increased the cost on already bad units like TLAC razors and storm ravens just because "spacemarines" (+90 conscripts) could beat a few index armies early in the eddition. It was clear once IG codex was released that space marines were actually quite horrific. It's only gotten worse as more powerful armies keep coming out. Personally - I'd be happy with a complete redesign of space marines HQs/ LOW as long as most the bad units got fixed and put on par with IG/Admech stuff.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ishagu wrote: Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ironic that as I recall various Marine focussed players stating that it must be so, Marines deserve it and F&%K anyone else who should merely wait quietly until all the important Marine dexes were done and be glad that there might be time for anyone else anyway.
The codexes were speedily pushed out- shame really as the rules could have remained in Index form with a regular update and the essential lore been in Campaign books and new faction Codexes.
So a Crusade Book and linked Index update book, same for Xenos races and Chaos Powers - but I guess they figured they could (and did) would sell the Codexes yet gain with mostly the same old fluff and art
They are just looking for a reason why everything in the army is 20% overcosted compared to top units from other codex. I mean...I think with a buff like gmans it does make it more difficult to balance the army internally but the formula should be a high cost for gman himself which he already had. I think Gman probably has a lot to do with GW doing nothing to fix marines because they listen to a bunch of newbie fluff players that complain about people getting all the rerolls! "How can I beat a guy that gets to reroll everything?" - ofc the simple answer is to kill the fragile units gman is buffing and soon hes got nothing to buff anymore. They actually increased the cost on already bad units like TLAC razors and storm ravens just because "spacemarines" (+90 conscripts) could beat a few index armies early in the eddition. It was clear once IG codex was released that space marines were actually quite horrific. It's only gotten worse as more powerful armies keep coming out. Personally - I'd be happy with a complete redesign of space marines HQs/ LOW as long as most the bad units got fixed and put on par with IG/Admech stuff.
Compared to a command russ, most marine vehicles are way more than 20% off.
Ishagu wrote: Can anyone prove that Guilliman has any impact on the cost of units?
GW are not costing units around him. You're already paying for his aura with his substantial cost which is frankly stifling in any game at 2k or below.
It's one of these silly myths, same as the myth that transport capacity increases unit price, even though a Razorback chassis costs less than a Predator chassis.
The Space Marine books simply suffer from being the first books written for 8th edition. Nothing more.
Ironic that as I recall various Marine focussed players stating that it must be so, Marines deserve it and F&%K anyone else who should merely wait quietly until all the important Marine dexes were done and be glad that there might be time for anyone else anyway.
The codexes were speedily pushed out- shame really as the rules could have remained in Index form with a regular update and the essential lore been in Campaign books and new faction Codexes.
So a Crusade Book and linked Index update book, same for Xenos races and Chaos Powers - but I guess they figured they could (and did) would sell the Codexes yet gain with mostly the same old fluff and art
They are just looking for a reason why everything in the army is 20% overcosted compared to top units from other codex. I mean...I think with a buff like gmans it does make it more difficult to balance the army internally but the formula should be a high cost for gman himself which he already had. I think Gman probably has a lot to do with GW doing nothing to fix marines because they listen to a bunch of newbie fluff players that complain about people getting all the rerolls! "How can I beat a guy that gets to reroll everything?" - ofc the simple answer is to kill the fragile units gman is buffing and soon hes got nothing to buff anymore. They actually increased the cost on already bad units like TLAC razors and storm ravens just because "spacemarines" (+90 conscripts) could beat a few index armies early in the eddition. It was clear once IG codex was released that space marines were actually quite horrific. It's only gotten worse as more powerful armies keep coming out. Personally - I'd be happy with a complete redesign of space marines HQs/ LOW as long as most the bad units got fixed and put on par with IG/Admech stuff.
Compared to a command russ, most marine vehicles are way more than 20% off.
Agreed- in some cases 30% even.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ishagu wrote: Games Workshop aren't fixing Marines because they have a longer term plan with codex releases.
Guess we should all just wait to have a fair game until 2020? I think I understand now! I can just stomp kids with gman and knights until my ultras get fixed. Waits that is what I have been doing!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I'd argue a predator might even be 50% off from a command russ. Battlecannons being 22 pts is fething absurd.
The exact same weapon is 90 points on a chaos knight lol. To be fair though - they have to spend at least 30 points there on a weapon so...it's really a 60 point weapon on that chasis.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 18:51:45
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ishagu wrote: Games Workshop aren't fixing Marines because they have a longer term plan with codex releases.
Guess we should all just wait to have a fair game until 2020? I think I understand now! I can just stomp kids with gman and knights until my ultras get fixed. Waits that is what I have been doing!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I'd argue a predator might even be 50% off from a command russ. Battlecannons being 22 pts is fething absurd.
The exact same weapon is 90 points on a chaos knight lol.
That might be a bit excessive, but it underscores what the hell is going on.
???
