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So this rule angels of death can't be only bolter discipline+morale reroll, because it will be common for all astartes and not only bolter guys, right?? . I hope is something like reduce damage done to units with this rule by 1 to a minimum of 1 or something that really boosts survivability of astartes.

Will the boys still be able to reroll Battle Shock tests?

 Kithail wrote:
I'd like to discuss how viable would be to give marines (infantry only) the ability of rerolling armour save rolls of 1. (Not invulns). Perhaps it would make SS less of an autotake. Of course perhaps a point adjustment would be in order.

Aside from, as previously mentioned, the game not needing more rerolls, a reroll of 1 for armor saves is deceptively powerful. It doesn't seem like a lot, but a reroll is always more powerful when the base stat is higher.

Lets use a standard example. 30 slugga boys somehow manage to charge into a squad of tacticals, who don't get overwatch for some reason and automaticly make it into melee and everyone gets to attack. 120 attacks, 3+ WS (2/3 to hit) Str 4 vs T 4 (1/2 to wound), 3+ save without reroll (1/3 to save) vs with (2/9 to save)

This takes you from 13.3R average wounds, which wipes the squad with interest, to 8.8R. That is a third of damage lost. While the rest of the marines run from morale, this is best case scenario for the Orks. Try something more fair:

20 choppa boys with a nob vs tactical squad with a sergeant and a heavy bolter. Giving the orks an advantage we start them at 12 inches and let them walk up 6 (representing Evil Sunz), shoot their sluggers and assault (assuming they make a 6 inch charge, which is a good chance). 20 sluggas (20*1/3*1/2*2/9) with dakkax3 (9+20*1/9*1/2*2/9) does a whole .9877 wounds (for sanity's sake will just round that up to 1). One dead marine! then overwatch....

14 bolters, 1 bolt pistol, and 1 heavy bolter. the 15 bolt rounds does 1.042 wounds (15*1/6*1/2*5/6) and the heavy bolter (.3R wounds). Good chance of one dead ork.

In melee, the 19 boys lose their green tide ability. Assuming each boy gets in range to attack, the throw out just throw out 54 (vs 76 if they'd gotten in unscathed) with (54*2/3*1/2*2/9) plus the nob for 4 attacks at str 5 (+4*2/3*2/3*2/9) for 4.395 wounds.

The 4 tac and sarge strike back (6*2/3*1/2*5/6) for 1.66R

In total that's 2.7 wounds by the marines, and 5.3827 wounds by the Orks, with a 25% of losing someone from morale (assuming 5 dead models).

That still sounds pretty in the Boyz's favor, but here's the thing. As currently? the boyz would have done 7.703 wounds, and the marines would have only done 2~ wounds back, likely resulting in the rest of the marine squad running.

We're taking about the differences between a squad only half dead to completely routed, and this is with giving the ork boyz almost every advantage. If the marines got to shoot first (or maybe even charged themselves)? if the boyz were put further away? If I had given the marines a combi flamer? if positioning mean some of the boys didn't get to attack? If the orks failed to charge? If the marines had a chapter tactic? they would have come out better.

And this is not the worst problem. Because what happens if those marines get a +1 to their armor because of cover? They got from a 1/6 chance to fail a save to 1/36. You effectively become immune to small arms fire.

 Kithail wrote:
I'd like to discuss how viable would be to give marines (infantry only) the ability of rerolling armour save rolls of 1. (Not invulns). Perhaps it would make SS less of an autotake. Of course perhaps a point adjustment would be in order.

People heavily dislike rerolls - apparently because spending more time playing the game you enjoy the hobby for is a bad thing - even though rerolls add more "granularity" as people like to call it - on the D6. A reroll of X adds less than a pip so they can break down the 3+ a little further than just going to 2+ (etcetera) which would allow a little more durability/functionality variety between various armies. That said, a reroll of 1 on armor saves when you have -X AP instead of the APX of yore were AP5 meant 4+ could save on a 4, and 5+ just didn't get to roll wouldn't be all that effective at your stated goal. Marines don't take the Storm Shield for AP -0 spam, they take it for the -3 Plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lonewolf81 wrote:
So this rule angels of death can't be only bolter discipline+morale reroll, because it will be common for all astartes and not only bolter guys, right?? . I hope is something like reduce damage done to units with this rule by 1 to a minimum of 1 or something that really boosts survivability of astartes.

Sure it can, they frequently give rules to units that don't need/can't use them. At one point chaplains were fearless and never rolled Morale, but they could still reroll it if they failed. That is, if I remember right.

If the half-assed Genestealer bodybuilders can have a -1 to damage rule, I'm sure Astartes could get it too.
Not gonna happen though.

I'd rather use different dice than reroll huge piles of D6. Also, the interactions with minus to hit are horrible.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd rather use different dice than reroll huge piles of D6. Also, the interactions with minus to hit are horrible.

So would I, especially given how many factions there are now that need their own tier on that die, but GW hasn't used different sided dice since 2nd Edition, and probably never will again. Its a valid discussion point, but not so much as a line in the sand.

D8 would give just enough granularity to work with. I know Martel likes the D10 because of the percentages with it, but D8 would be easier to work from.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
D8 would give just enough granularity to work with. I know Martel likes the D10 because of the percentages with it, but D8 would be easier to work from.

How many factions are there? Some would double up on various armor saves but not attack rolls, or vice versa, for variety but you'll also have elites and chaff within those armies who will need their own niche on the die. Remember whatever size die you land on, two options are all but removed for auto-fail and auto-success - so a D8 only has "granularity" for 6 variations of success/failure. Are 6 results enough to differentiate between Grots to Greater Daemons with Guardsmen, Gaunts, Sisters, Marines, Custodes, Eldar, Terminators, Tanks, Speeders, Knights, and so on?

And still doesn't resolve GW avoiding the Satanic and hard to find Dungeons and Dragons dice like the plague since the year 2000.

6 isn't an auto pass on saves.

Is rare though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
6 isn't an auto pass on saves.

There is no autopass on armor saves, but there is/has been on other things. Remember Double 1's for insane courage? Double 6 Unstoppable Force Perils? The Current SvT chart has a 6 auto-pass to wound (unless a rule provides a negative to-wound mod, which is rare if it exists at all) Keep in mind, the new D(X) system has to survive multiple editions and revisions which will recycle multiple ideas and rules of the past- like some of the things they came up with a system to roll a 7+ on a D6 for.

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
D8 would give just enough granularity to work with. I know Martel likes the D10 because of the percentages with it, but D8 would be easier to work from.

How many factions are there? Some would double up on various armor saves but not attack rolls, or vice versa, for variety but you'll also have elites and chaff within those armies who will need their own niche on the die. Remember whatever size die you land on, two options are all but removed for auto-fail and auto-success - so a D8 only has "granularity" for 6 variations of success/failure. Are 6 results enough to differentiate between Grots to Greater Daemons with Guardsmen, Gaunts, Sisters, Marines, Custodes, Eldar, Terminators, Tanks, Speeders, Knights, and so on?

And still doesn't resolve GW avoiding the Satanic and hard to find Dungeons and Dragons dice like the plague since the year 2000.

Moreso than now.

Also niche dice have been easier to find nowadays. With the internet there's honestly 0 excuses, especially when they're almost the same cost.

Did anyone buy the new WD with Blood Ravens inside? I was told the Angels of Death rule is in their datasheet? No clue if true, haven't seen it myself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
D8 would give just enough granularity to work with. I know Martel likes the D10 because of the percentages with it, but D8 would be easier to work from.

How many factions are there? Some would double up on various armor saves but not attack rolls, or vice versa, for variety but you'll also have elites and chaff within those armies who will need their own niche on the die. Remember whatever size die you land on, two options are all but removed for auto-fail and auto-success - so a D8 only has "granularity" for 6 variations of success/failure. Are 6 results enough to differentiate between Grots to Greater Daemons with Guardsmen, Gaunts, Sisters, Marines, Custodes, Eldar, Terminators, Tanks, Speeders, Knights, and so on?

And still doesn't resolve GW avoiding the Satanic and hard to find Dungeons and Dragons dice like the plague since the year 2000.

Moreso than now.

Also niche dice have been easier to find nowadays. With the internet there's honestly 0 excuses, especially when they're almost the same cost.

Definitely not the same cost.
I can go to my local dollar store and get 10d6 for $1.

 bullyboy wrote:
Did anyone buy the new WD with Blood Ravens inside? I was told the Angels of Death rule is in their datasheet? No clue if true, haven't seen it myself.

He does not have Angels of Death. He has regular ATSKNF.

 Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
D8 would give just enough granularity to work with. I know Martel likes the D10 because of the percentages with it, but D8 would be easier to work from.

How many factions are there? Some would double up on various armor saves but not attack rolls, or vice versa, for variety but you'll also have elites and chaff within those armies who will need their own niche on the die. Remember whatever size die you land on, two options are all but removed for auto-fail and auto-success - so a D8 only has "granularity" for 6 variations of success/failure. Are 6 results enough to differentiate between Grots to Greater Daemons with Guardsmen, Gaunts, Sisters, Marines, Custodes, Eldar, Terminators, Tanks, Speeders, Knights, and so on?

And still doesn't resolve GW avoiding the Satanic and hard to find Dungeons and Dragons dice like the plague since the year 2000.

Moreso than now.

Also niche dice have been easier to find nowadays. With the internet there's honestly 0 excuses, especially when they're almost the same cost.

Definitely not the same cost.
I can go to my local dollar store and get 10d6 for $1.

Ah yes, dollar store dice, how could I forget? However, the cost really isn't that far off.
https://www.amazon.com/MagiDeal-10pieces-Polyhedral-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/B076P6SHWP/ref=mp_s_a_1_16?keywords=d8+dice&qid=1563727611&s=gateway&sprefix=d8&sr=8-16
That's a 10 pack for $4. You might think 4× the cost is unreasonable, but do you need more than 40-50 of them anyway? Not really.

Breton wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
I'd like to discuss how viable would be to give marines (infantry only) the ability of rerolling armour save rolls of 1. (Not invulns). Perhaps it would make SS less of an autotake. Of course perhaps a point adjustment would be in order.

People heavily dislike rerolls - apparently because spending more time playing the game you enjoy the hobby for is a bad thing - even though rerolls add more "granularity" as people like to call it - on the D6.

Rolling dice is not really the thing I like about 40k. If it was, I'd just get a bucket and throw dice in it. Even my toddler got tired of that pretty quick. Its just tedious and time consuming. Honestly the stupid amount of time I was spending dice rolling is one of the reasons I've been so happy playing kill team instead of regular 40k. I still enjoyed 8th edition, but after the second game running some bolter aggressors I was ready to switch to a statistic app.

 argonak wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
I'd like to discuss how viable would be to give marines (infantry only) the ability of rerolling armour save rolls of 1. (Not invulns). Perhaps it would make SS less of an autotake. Of course perhaps a point adjustment would be in order.

People heavily dislike rerolls - apparently because spending more time playing the game you enjoy the hobby for is a bad thing - even though rerolls add more "granularity" as people like to call it - on the D6.

Rolling dice is not really the thing I like about 40k. If it was, I'd just get a bucket and throw dice in it. Even my toddler got tired of that pretty quick. Its just tedious and time consuming. Honestly the stupid amount of time I was spending dice rolling is one of the reasons I've been so happy playing kill team instead of regular 40k. I still enjoyed 8th edition, but after the second game running some bolter aggressors I was ready to switch to a statistic app.

a statistic ap is silly. because the point of throwing dice is that sure there's a statistical window but sometimes luck goes odd. and that can make the game exciting

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Moreso than now.

Also niche dice have been easier to find nowadays. With the internet there's honestly 0 excuses, especially when they're almost the same cost.

Other than the residual from the Satanic Dungeons and Dragons thing Parents and Grandparents with the wallets would have to get over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
I'd like to discuss how viable would be to give marines (infantry only) the ability of rerolling armour save rolls of 1. (Not invulns). Perhaps it would make SS less of an autotake. Of course perhaps a point adjustment would be in order.

People heavily dislike rerolls - apparently because spending more time playing the game you enjoy the hobby for is a bad thing - even though rerolls add more "granularity" as people like to call it - on the D6.

Rolling dice is not really the thing I like about 40k. If it was, I'd just get a bucket and throw dice in it. Even my toddler got tired of that pretty quick. Its just tedious and time consuming. Honestly the stupid amount of time I was spending dice rolling is one of the reasons I've been so happy playing kill team instead of regular 40k. I still enjoyed 8th edition, but after the second game running some bolter aggressors I was ready to switch to a statistic app.

a statistic ap is silly. because the point of throwing dice is that sure there's a statistical window but sometimes luck goes odd. and that can make the game exciting

A statistic app can also randomize. But I don't see people talking about that time you hit calculate on your phone, and killed that Greater Demon when the behind the scenes reroll gave you that last wound you needed nearly as often as when you do it with the drama of a dice roll. There's also a point where you should just put the models away and get a game of Total War or Dawn of War and let the computer do the moving for you too.

I really wish GW would just drop the kits for these new marines. I want to have them built and painted for when this new rule pops up

 fraser1191 wrote:
I really wish GW would just drop the kits for these new marines. I want to have them built and painted for when this new rule pops up

The new Kits will spoil the new codex. But yeah, I'd like to get them painted up as well. I'm curious what, if anything the Infiltrators will get for options as we already have Eliminators.

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I really wish GW would just drop the kits for these new marines. I want to have them built and painted for when this new rule pops up

The new Kits will spoil the new codex. But yeah, I'd like to get them painted up as well. I'm curious what, if anything the Infiltrators will get for options as we already have Eliminators.

I'm hoping infiltrators get shotguns to be honest. But ones with good damage potential and can target things beyond infantry. I'd say that's the biggest problem with Primaris they're super rigid and have basically S4 for most of their units. Hopefully the shotguns are S5, S6 at half range or something. Ideally wounding T3 infantry on 2

What are the new units going to be?

Valrak just shared this rumour. He was sent the info.

"Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase"

Those are not solutions to current problems.

Martel732 wrote:
Those are not solutions to current problems.

Until we've seen the next codex you can't claim that anything is or isn't a solution to anything.

Clearly if this is true then we're looking at substantial changes to the book.

I can claim those particular abilities, if accurate, solve nothing. If there are other changes, great.

I hope you can choose based on turn as opposed to round so you can be more flexible with your abilities. But I'm sure everyone is already thinking "if I choose the ap for shooting my already meh melee will continue to be meh"

I do kinda want to side with Martel on this one. Improving Marine melee is great and all, but unless we are giving them the option of melee weapons, where is the benefit of 2 attacks at S4 AP1 D1 per model?

Given their obvious focus towards ranged attacking, putting them into melee seems counter intuitive. Unless we are thinking Reivers here, in which case they could do some really good work with this.