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Melee is not a super great plan for starters. I have never found myself wishing for some random AP on punches. I desperately want to surrender fewer points on my opponent's shooting phase.

Short of either points reductions or a variation of the red corsairs +1CP for ever tactical or intercessors squad which would see tgem chosen for imperium soup lists.
To be worth while to marines, marines need some new strategums.
Outside of the snowflake chapters the marine strategums aren't worth the tax units.

Compared to the crap GSC gets to do, BA strats aren't worthwhile either. Except for the smash capt nonsense, which I wish they would remove. It's just dumb to the max.

And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Veteran Sargeant with 5 power fist attacks, he's almost a 1 man terminator squad. I think these will help, they will shake up casual play but I doubt it will break the meta

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

I could see this become pretty gnarly on Salamander Intercessors with flamers and boltguns.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

If the rumor pans out to be true they will be a fearsome and affordable troop unit with significant output. Two sgts with power fists will gave the same output as a full squad of Terminators.
Keep in mind that these rumors are for the main Astartes codex. We don't know if it will be Primaris focused or if it will involve chapters like the BA, DA and SW

Martel732 wrote:
Those are not solutions to current problems.

Actually - that would be amazing. I guess it's not what I want...durability. But being more killy also has a lot of benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Valrak just shared this rumour. He was sent the info.

"Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase"

Just thinking how awesome that will be with devs with rockets. Can get ap-3 on missle shots or ap-1 on frags. Oh and vet intercessors with 40 ap-2 shots? Ouch. Go on an spam your invo saves people...dont care anymore! HAHA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

Well you do get 5+FNP intercessors. Probably better than my intercessors to be honest. Have you thought about just asking your opponents to use the formation? Its not like it would be broken on BA. It's just some stupid fluff consideration why they don't get it.

I can make a small part of my list functional. More babysitters, yay.

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
And suddenly Veteran Intercessors have 4 attacks at AP-1
Or 40 shots at 30“ range with AP-2

These are just two basic implications if these prove to be true.

Must be nice to have vet intercessors in the first place.

If the rumor pans out to be true they will be a fearsome and affordable troop unit with significant output. Two sgts with power fists will gave the same output as a full squad of Terminators.
Keep in mind that these rumors are for the main Astartes codex. We don't know if it will be Primaris focused or if it will involve chapters like the BA, DA and SW

This is the exact problem though it's a typical GW answer to a problem great my intercessors for 180 points can get to the same amount of CC attacks as 150 points of guard.
But it doesn't solve the issue of 8th still being an quantity over quality edition.

I'd still much rather have:

A) D2 counts as D1 for all astartes. (Plague marines need love, too)

B) Astartes ignore the first -1 to hit generated from an opponent's ability.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still much rather have:

A) D2 counts as D1 for all astartes. (Plague marines need love, too)

B) Astartes ignore the first -1 to hit generated from an opponent's ability.

Defense is always better than offense in 40k. It's always been that way.

Yeah, but I think the ignoring -1 to hit is important for an elite army. Marines can't afford to miss.

What about -1 AP Weapons count as AP 0 against astartes?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about -1 AP Weapons count as AP 0 against astartes?

That's a nice buff, but doesn't have the same impact of changing D2 to D1. Dam2 and DamD3 commonality almost singlehandedly invalidates primaris competitively, and even casually depending on the situation.

So would the D2 - D1 debuff affect ALL astartes units, or just troops? Because I can see this getting abused by making Aggressors like blocking units. Then again, a squad of aggressors surrounding Gman would be an ugly castle...

All astartes. Aggressors current cost is unjustifiable without such a rule. At least, to me. It wouldn't save them form D3 weapons that rolled a "3", either. IG would still have their way with them, imo. I think current marines are so far from anything that resembles abuse that such a change is worth trying at least.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So would the D2 - D1 debuff affect ALL astartes units, or just troops? Because I can see this getting abused by making Aggressors like blocking units. Then again, a squad of aggressors surrounding Gman would be an ugly castle...

Ehhh - plenty of units a lot cheaper than aggressors that are already tougher than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
All astartes. Aggressors current cost is unjustifiable without such a rule. At least, to me. It wouldn't save them form D3 weapons that rolled a "3", either. IG would still have their way with them, imo. I think current marines are so far from anything that resembles abuse that such a change is worth trying at least.

Personally I think Gravis should have 3 wounds if we were gonna give them any kind of change.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still much rather have:

A) D2 counts as D1 for all astartes. (Plague marines need love, too)

B) Astartes ignore the first -1 to hit generated from an opponent's ability.

I actually agree with the first one, but I'd probably go further and just say all damage is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1, including against Vehicles.

I don't really agree with that second one. I think the better solution is for all chapter master and equivalent auras be all hits, not just failed ones. It severely reduces the impact of -1 to hit factions without outright ignoring the ability altogether.

Like it or not, this is the aura army after all.

Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Nono. The vehicles dont get it.

Im trying to reduce dependence on auras. Theyre terrible.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

"To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability."
I get what you are saying but durability per point is what survivability really means and increasing stats and decreasing cost have the exact same effect here. Except lowering cost is even more effective because better stats can be ignored.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

Hard to scalpel away a 20-30% deficiency. That is where most marine units stand. Intercessors are one of the better units we got actually. They are one of the few that are only 10-15% overcosted.

DA are sub 40% win rate. Until very recently, BA were mid 30% win rate. Still lurking at 40%. Scalpel is fine, but its gonna take a lot of cuts.

Martel732 wrote:
DA are sub 40% win rate. Until very recently, BA were mid 30% win rate. Still lurking at 40%. Scalpel is fine, but its gonna take a lot of cuts.

I guess 12 cuts with the preclusion of adding to the number of cuts is better than one hammer swing that added 50 new cuts needed.

See:EVERY FAQ EVER.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

I get the concern, but I think the approach needs to be to fix the bulk of units that all have essentially the same problem, and then deal with edge cases like FW dreads on their own. Otherwise we just end up with "You can't fix Marine infantry because it might break these 2 units." Just don't give the buff to those units, or nerf them in some other way. Marines need to be back on the table.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, I don't even want to think about Leviathans walking around with the -1 to all damage buff.

To be honest, the problem with Intercessors is the cost, not the survivability. I would much prefer cheaper chaff than harder to kill chaff. I think the D2-D1 would go well on Elite level infantry and vehicles. Oh gawd a full squad of Hellblasters with this...

Making them cheaper would fix it, but then they don't feel like marines anymore, letalone Primaris marines. Turning everybody into chaff/horde is not a good solution.

Right, but for every balance, you have to take into account FW units. We could increase the survivability of all Primaris, but then you risk making FW units even more Meta auto-take. I still advocate for scalpel level changes, not thunder hammer.

I get the concern, but I think the approach needs to be to fix the bulk of units that all have essentially the same problem, and then deal with edge cases like FW dreads on their own. Otherwise we just end up with "You can't fix Marine infantry because it might break these 2 units." Just don't give the buff to those units, or nerf them in some other way. Marines need to be back on the table.

The reduction of damage down to one would only help numarines and other 2+w units though. It would be another spit in the face to regular marine collectors. I dont think that is what the community needs... A buff thet helps both primaris and regulars would be more appreciated.

Also bring in a machete or something, scalpel is not enough.