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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Klickor wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, you would deep strike your terminators. 170 points of them could take on 30 IS and 1 CC.

20 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 6 GEQ // 5 plain-ass terminators
18 * .5 * .333 * .167 = 0.5 // Full strength IS FRFSRF at 24"

This is the funny thing about math hammer, because that 0.5 is quite likely to not happen on the 3 average save rolls you have to take, but sometimes you also roll 3 1s.

Terminators drop and kill the better part of a unit and then charge a separate unit (overwatch is nearly negligible). With the new rules they're dropping 16 PF attacks, which is 7 GEQ.

So, you have a unit of 10, a unit of 4, a unit of 3, and the CC. Both of those heavily wounded units are likely to lose models to morale. But of course you get to FRFSRF @12" with a whole unit of 10 on your turn... 37 * .5 * .333 * .167 = 1

One wound. This presumes the terminators make it into combat, but really if they don't they might lose one model and then next turn they're in unless you focus with other elements from your army (which you should), but again this is where mathhammer is stupid and accounts for none of the realities on the table.

The problem is the next turn. When a tank commander fire its plasma cannons and wipes the whole unit in a single volley. If they have screens left and you DS a terminator unit you are very unlikely to charge anything worth while since even if you kill the guardsmen they still did their job of keeping you away.

I think the VS guardsmen problem is usually a good indicator if troops are good or not but kinda irrelevant in most other cases. If guardsmen are good against a target usually shows how bad the other unit is but the reverse doesnt say that unit is goodm. That terminators can be point effient against guardsmen isnt really interesting or an indicator of they are good since the opponent should have other units to counter the terminators and since the terminators cant get close enough against non chaff/screens they get countered.

Hence my comment : "but again this is where mathhammer is stupid and accounts for none of the realities on the table"

Here's the next problem. You just assumed that the TC is ripping into terminators, but you added nothing to the marine side of the equation to account for that, so, you unbalanced the consideration to strictly favor IG. The IS didn't keep me away if the goal was to put a hole in them - that job is done. Soaking up tank fire is an added benefit. It's what can push through that gap that will be important.

That terminators can be point effient against guardsmen isnt really interesting or an indicator of they are good since the opponent should have other units to counter the terminators and since the terminators cant get close enough against non chaff/screens they get countered.

You can say this about literally anything that is the scissors to paper.

Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus. Breton, your scenario doesn't make any sense. Lets break it down from the beginning.
Them: Terminators are better vs X.
You: NO! Lasguns still kill them, here is some biased and incorrect math to prove it. (Yes it was biased. Somehow the Terminator was at 24' not getting his double shots and the IG were at half range for double tap)
Them: That was biased, here is why, here is the correct math and here is why I was right.
You: yeah but now the IG have a TANK! haha guard win.
Them: Adding in 200-400pts of extra's doesn't invalidate the original position.

So at this point can you admit you were wrong about the Lasgun?

SemperMortis wrote:


Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus.

A Daedalus agreement a day keeps the bolters away? I'll work on it...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus.

A Daedalus agreement a day keeps the bolters away? I'll work on it...

From what I am seeing of the new SM stuff, we will need to keep a lot of Bolters away. I think the 8 months (ish) of orkz being successful in tournaments is officially over. I just don't see orkz being able to stand up to that kind of firepower and counter charge ability.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus it's still a better trait than Salamanders and Crimson Fists.

Its not great, but I like Combat Squads so the Crimson Fists tactic suits me fine.

Most of our stuff was already MSU and it doesn't help with the actual problem of larger targets.

It REALLY isn't a good Chapter Tactic and you're deluding yourself to think otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Klickor wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, you would deep strike your terminators. 170 points of them could take on 30 IS and 1 CC.

20 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 6 GEQ // 5 plain-ass terminators
18 * .5 * .333 * .167 = 0.5 // Full strength IS FRFSRF at 24"

This is the funny thing about math hammer, because that 0.5 is quite likely to not happen on the 3 average save rolls you have to take, but sometimes you also roll 3 1s.

Terminators drop and kill the better part of a unit and then charge a separate unit (overwatch is nearly negligible). With the new rules they're dropping 16 PF attacks, which is 7 GEQ.

So, you have a unit of 10, a unit of 4, a unit of 3, and the CC. Both of those heavily wounded units are likely to lose models to morale. But of course you get to FRFSRF @12" with a whole unit of 10 on your turn... 37 * .5 * .333 * .167 = 1

One wound. This presumes the terminators make it into combat, but really if they don't they might lose one model and then next turn they're in unless you focus with other elements from your army (which you should), but again this is where mathhammer is stupid and accounts for none of the realities on the table.

The problem is the next turn. When a tank commander fire its plasma cannons and wipes the whole unit in a single volley. If they have screens left and you DS a terminator unit you are very unlikely to charge anything worth while since even if you kill the guardsmen they still did their job of keeping you away.

I think the VS guardsmen problem is usually a good indicator if troops are good or not but kinda irrelevant in most other cases. If guardsmen are good against a target usually shows how bad the other unit is but the reverse doesnt say that unit is goodm. That terminators can be point effient against guardsmen isnt really interesting or an indicator of they are good since the opponent should have other units to counter the terminators and since the terminators cant get close enough against non chaff/screens they get countered.

Hence my comment : "but again this is where mathhammer is stupid and accounts for none of the realities on the table"

Here's the next problem. You just assumed that the TC is ripping into terminators, but you added nothing to the marine side of the equation to account for that, so, you unbalanced the consideration to strictly favor IG. The IS didn't keep me away if the goal was to put a hole in them - that job is done. Soaking up tank fire is an added benefit. It's what can push through that gap that will be important.

That terminators can be point effient against guardsmen isnt really interesting or an indicator of they are good since the opponent should have other units to counter the terminators and since the terminators cant get close enough against non chaff/screens they get countered.

You can say this about literally anything that is the scissors to paper.

Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus. Breton, your scenario doesn't make any sense. Lets break it down from the beginning.
Them: Terminators are better vs X.
You: NO! Lasguns still kill them, here is some biased and incorrect math to prove it. (Yes it was biased. Somehow the Terminator was at 24' not getting his double shots and the IG were at half range for double tap)
Them: That was biased, here is why, here is the correct math and here is why I was right.
You: yeah but now the IG have a TANK! haha guard win.
Them: Adding in 200-400pts of extra's doesn't invalidate the original position.

So at this point can you admit you were wrong about the Lasgun?

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

They are 37 right? So 5 is 185pts? So 20 S4 shots for that price is ridiculous, but they also get the powerfist which is the utility they suffer for. Look at my Killa kanz, Dreadz, Nautz. They all suffer points wise because they have the utility to technically be good at CC and have a ranged weapon. If I could rip off the CC weapon on my kanz and reduce their price by 15pts I would in a heartbeat.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus.

A Daedalus agreement a day keeps the bolters away? I'll work on it...

From what I am seeing of the new SM stuff, we will need to keep a lot of Bolters away. I think the 8 months (ish) of orkz being successful in tournaments is officially over. I just don't see orkz being able to stand up to that kind of firepower and counter charge ability.

There is so much to chew on from the past month that it will take 6 months to settle into whatever the meta might be, but CA and Sisters will come by that time as well. And whatever the psychic thing is going to be. Time flies so fast these days.

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

They are 37 right? So 5 is 185pts? So 20 S4 shots for that price is ridiculous, but they also get the powerfist which is the utility they suffer for. Look at my Killa kanz, Dreadz, Nautz. They all suffer points wise because they have the utility to technically be good at CC and have a ranged weapon. If I could rip off the CC weapon on my kanz and reduce their price by 15pts I would in a heartbeat.

They also have W3 without a mostly useless 5++ behind it

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

They need to get the Wolf Guard treatment and be able to take anything out of the armory in any combination.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus.

A Daedalus agreement a day keeps the bolters away? I'll work on it...

Just to say, I agree with you as well. However the situations are oddly often skewed in the guards favor of hypothetical math hammer giving them all the answers while they beat down the poor - insert army, mostly marine units here - without mercy and prove why they are the boogey man of 8th edition. If they were as good as all the one sided scenarios play out, they'd never ever lose a game and all that would be left is broken dreams in their wake. Even in a thread talking about the new marines, can't ever escape the fact of Guard OP, say their new faction name three times in the mirror and they arrive at any game you are playing and nuke your units with tank commanders packing all the plasma and we all know, there is no counter to that.

Chos termites might actually be worth it now?
Especially with chainaxes?
Need to expand my termites force.

You mean Chaos Termies?

They've always been worth it thanks to combi weapons and double shooting. Now they have better CC on top.

 Ishagu wrote:
You mean Chaos Termies?

They've always been worth it thanks to combi weapons and double shooting. Now they have better CC on top.

I'm gonna give loyalist termies a go now that they have a decent chance of destroying an average vehicle

 Ishagu wrote:
You mean Chaos Termies?

They've always been worth it thanks to combi weapons and double shooting. Now they have better CC on top.

Not really, the price for combiweapons is steep, and that made the squad into a centerpiece unit, which however is done better by a lot of other units in the csm dex.

They aren't the best but they are still good.

It's easy for them to earn their points back and then some in every game quite easily.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
You're also not allowed to make up hypothetical scenarios that prove your point as fact covered in descriptors influencing the reader. The mirror of what you just did is:

How useful is falling back and shooting when your back is against the table edge?! You'd have to fall back off the board!

If you're going to do the hypothetical thing, you've got to do it neutral or not in your favor. I'm not even going to get started on why you moved to shoot at the unit 36 inches away while complaining you get half the shots you would have gotten at a unit 24 inches away with questions of why you moved if you wanted double the shots at the closer unit, or what happens when there isn't that closer unit. Oh. Maybe I did get started.

Because that's the range band that the Black Legion trait is actually useful.

At 30"-36", you can shoot something by advancing that you could not normally shoot.
At 24"-30", you can advance and shoot the same number of shots, at a penalty to hit.
At 18"-24", you lose half your shots advancing (since it changes Rapid Fire X to Assault X) thanks to Bolter Drill.
At 18" or less, you lose half your shots advancing even if you had to move anyway.

No, you misunderstood. Why did you move to shoot at the far away unit if you wanted to double tap the close unit? You’re complaining you didn’t get to double tap the far away unit because you could have double tapped the nearby one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klickor wrote:

The problem is the next turn. When a tank commander fire its plasma cannons and wipes the whole unit in a single volley. If they have screens left and you DS a terminator unit you are very unlikely to charge anything worth while since even if you kill the guardsmen they still did their job of keeping you away.

I think the VS guardsmen problem is usually a good indicator if troops are good or not but kinda irrelevant in most other cases. If guardsmen are good against a target usually shows how bad the other unit is but the reverse doesnt say that unit is goodm. That terminators can be point effient against guardsmen isnt really interesting or an indicator of they are good since the opponent should have other units to counter the terminators and since the terminators cant get close enough against non chaff/screens they get countered.

. That’s just it, they’re not efficient vs guardsmen. An entire squad of guardsmen is the about same price as one terminator. And he’s not even close to killing them before they kill him.

Don’t get me wrong, I like them, and they have their uses. But they’re not good. They’ve been worse, but they’re still not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Weird day, I am agreeing with Daedalus. Breton, your scenario doesn't make any sense. Lets break it down from the beginning.
Them: Terminators are better vs X.
You: NO! Lasguns still kill them, here is some biased and incorrect math to prove it. (Yes it was biased. Somehow the Terminator was at 24' not getting his double shots and the IG were at half range for double tap)
Them: That was biased, here is why, here is the correct math and here is why I was right.
You: yeah but now the IG have a TANK! haha guard win.
Them: Adding in 200-400pts of extra's doesn't invalidate the original position.

So at this point can you admit you were wrong about the Lasgun?

I didn’t give guard a tank? I pointed out there were far better things to deepstrike against than a guard squad as the reason I didn’t mathhammer the termie squad alphastriking a guard squad? I probably pointed out one guard squad and a tank were about the same cost. I did the math for 10 guardsmen vs a Termie (and had the Reiver bolt carbine from the thread I had just replied to not the storm Bolter in my head, not bias) and redid the math correctly. Maybe you missed that, maybe you got confused, maybe you just want to lie about bias? Then my next offer was 3 guard squads with specials and heavies, , and a heavy weapon squad for roughly equal points - vs. 5 man Terminator Squad with... a heavy.. I asked what to arm the Terminators with, and as yet haven’t seen a reply, but I’m still catching up.

And no, the correct math doesn’t prove I was wrong, it proves I was right. The bells and whistles unit of Terminators doesn’t curb stomp and equal points investment of guard squads. The lasguns alone are pretty close to on par with the stormbolters after you adjust for volume of fire vs +1S and save mods. Throw in specials and heavies and it just gets worse. For 40 points you get 2-4 shots, and 2 2+ wounds. Guard get 10-20 S3 shots and 10 5+ wounds.

You’ve said you’re deep striking them, that means you get 5 turns tops with them in a 6 turn game. 5 x4 is 20 shots max, Just over 13 hits, just under 9 wounding hits, 6 wounds after saves. Even if the guardsmen doesn’t kill a single terminator, they still score the objective with 3 wounds left. But, let’s see. You deep stuck, you get to shoot first, because no matter how ridiculous, you apparently deep struck in order to target the guardsman squad and you call it bias to point out that is unlikely and ridiculous - so you get a little over 1 of your six casualties. I get 9 firing back. 18 shots, 9 hits. 3 wounds, half of one after saves. You have 1.5 wounds left. Next turn I lose another 1 and change, we’ll call it 7. 14 shots, 7 hits, 2 wounding hits, you lost a third of a wound. You have 1 and 1/6th of a wound left or so. This race would be exciting if I didn’t know the Terminator already lost the objective. 6 firing, 12 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds, a third after saves, youre now at 5/6ths of a wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

They are 37 right? So 5 is 185pts? So 20 S4 shots for that price is ridiculous, but they also get the powerfist which is the utility they suffer for. Look at my Killa kanz, Dreadz, Nautz. They all suffer points wise because they have the utility to technically be good at CC and have a ranged weapon. If I could rip off the CC weapon on my kanz and reduce their price by 15pts I would in a heartbeat.

Its the cyclone. Keep the storm bolter, and fire two missiles. I’m not sure it’s better than an AssCan though. Feels pretty similar.

So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

My God dude you ever fething stop with being a martyr for the most consistently topping army in the game or what?

If they keep dominating them in comp play, then yes.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. Terminators are already durable enough to a host of weapons. The issue is their offense is mostly lacking. While always having 4 shots on is nice for them, it doesn't do much for an almost 40 point model that would also likely purchase a Heavy Weapon.

They need to get the Wolf Guard treatment and be able to take anything out of the armory in any combination.

Yeah my wolfguard terminators are only 27pts Storm Bolter and storm shield. 135pts for 5 man squad. Additionally with wulfen and arjac and the new shock assault they would have 5 attacks on the charge.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
You're also not allowed to make up hypothetical scenarios that prove your point as fact covered in descriptors influencing the reader. The mirror of what you just did is:

How useful is falling back and shooting when your back is against the table edge?! You'd have to fall back off the board!

If you're going to do the hypothetical thing, you've got to do it neutral or not in your favor. I'm not even going to get started on why you moved to shoot at the unit 36 inches away while complaining you get half the shots you would have gotten at a unit 24 inches away with questions of why you moved if you wanted double the shots at the closer unit, or what happens when there isn't that closer unit. Oh. Maybe I did get started.

Because that's the range band that the Black Legion trait is actually useful.

At 30"-36", you can shoot something by advancing that you could not normally shoot.
At 24"-30", you can advance and shoot the same number of shots, at a penalty to hit.
At 18"-24", you lose half your shots advancing (since it changes Rapid Fire X to Assault X) thanks to Bolter Drill.
At 18" or less, you lose half your shots advancing even if you had to move anyway.

No, you misunderstood. Why did you move to shoot at the far away unit if you wanted to double tap the close unit? You’re complaining you didn’t get to double tap the far away unit because you could have double tapped the nearby one.

Because I was talking about the Legion Trait-if you're not Advancing, it does literally nothing other than an extra point of Leadership.

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

Since when did you ever see anything but Alitoc Craftworld?

-2 to hit is still a way better chapter tactic, eldar have some synergies of design because they have infinite dedicated units one of them is bound to get some good rulea or mesh with the core mechanics.

As far as I can tell it's always been the stack -2 to hit shenanigans that people objected to or the doom for not Craftworld units that people complained about and only 1 of those has been addressed yet.

I've seen the others occasionally in northern Ohio.

Hm, with Shock Assault (plus Crimson Fists CTs), I'm actually feeling reasonably enthused about using Assault Marines for the first time in a while. Seems like they should munch through units of screening chumps quite nicely now.

You don't want to have to get that close. As a BA player, trust me.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't want to have to get that close. As a BA player, trust me.

Aye, but in fairness, you don't have anything good to say about *anything*

Not in the BA arsenal, really. Which heavily overlaps with marines. Although these CT are quite nice. A lot of marine units get pretty good with the correct neo-CT slapped on them.

BA just have a terrible CT. And punching with power armor has been, up till this point, awful.

 Ishagu wrote:
They aren't the best but they are still good.

It's easy for them to earn their points back and then some in every game quite easily.

Depends quite a bit, i personally drifted away from Combi weapons mostly because of the price point.
Altough i agree that a dirt cheap CSM termi squad does earn it's points back rather fast, especially with slaanesh mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Not in the BA arsenal, really. Which heavily overlaps with marines. Although these CT are quite nice. A lot of marine units get pretty good with the correct neo-CT slapped on them.

BA just have a terrible CT. And punching with power armor has been, up till this point, awful.

Shock assault should help there so he, RIP and TEAR might become good enough, but imo why give out a special rule when you could've just given everyone a Chainsword?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus it's still a better trait than Salamanders and Crimson Fists.

Its not great, but I like Combat Squads so the Crimson Fists tactic suits me fine.

Most of our stuff was already MSU and it doesn't help with the actual problem of larger targets.

It REALLY isn't a good Chapter Tactic and you're deluding yourself to think otherwise.

I've liked it since it was a WD Tactic, since around here there's mostly horde guardsmen, horde orks, horde nids and horde daemons. Maybe the meta at my local store is just deluded.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/07/space-marines-preview-new-unitsgw-homepage-post-1/

Jeez these new abilities for the vanguard units are nuts.

Eliminators rifles are S5, Las fusils do 3D, can fall back if charged
Infiltrators is a dual kit, new kit ignores hit modifiers and lays mines for MWs
The rhino let's guys disembark after it moves and has many options
Dreadnought has twin auto cannon and can infiltrate

Plus doctrines, damn, I think marines are gonna be OP

 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/07/space-marines-preview-new-unitsgw-homepage-post-1/

Jeez these new abilities for the vanguard units are nuts.

Eliminators rifles are S5, Las fusils do 3D, can fall back if charged
Infiltrators is a dual kit, new kit ignores hit modifiers and lays mines for MWs
The rhino let's guys disembark after it moves and has many options
Dreadnought has twin auto cannon and can infiltrate

Plus doctrines, damn, I think marines are gonna be OP

I hate to agree but this does look like typical GW levels of overreaction.

Primaris were so bad they became embarrassed by how badly they overcosted them.
But these new units getting what look like a lot of stacking buffs seem to indicate that GW still has no idea of how to actually balance 8th edition marines.