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Ice_can wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/07/space-marines-preview-new-unitsgw-homepage-post-1/

Jeez these new abilities for the vanguard units are nuts.

Eliminators rifles are S5, Las fusils do 3D, can fall back if charged
Infiltrators is a dual kit, new kit ignores hit modifiers and lays mines for MWs
The rhino let's guys disembark after it moves and has many options
Dreadnought has twin auto cannon and can infiltrate

Plus doctrines, damn, I think marines are gonna be OP

I hate to agree but this does look like typical GW levels of overreaction.

Primaris were so bad they became embarrassed by how badly they overcosted them.
But these new units getting what look like a lot of stacking buffs seem to indicate that GW still has no idea of how to actually balance 8th edition marines.

I've heard that primaris sales were never where they wanted. I don't know how true that is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

My God dude you ever fething stop with being a martyr for the most consistently topping army in the game or what?

Almost every single thread gets derailed into "Marines are garbage". Even when they were OP. And people complaining about the silliness are just "martyr"s for another faction?

Replace CWE with just about any other book, the point remains the same. IronHands/Uthwe was just the most conveinient comparison.

Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

Since when did you ever see anything but Alitoc Craftworld?

-2 to hit is still a way better chapter tactic, eldar have some synergies of design because they have infinite dedicated units one of them is bound to get some good rulea or mesh with the core mechanics.

-2 to hit is certainly a better chapter tactic than anything CWE has. Their best is just a situational -1 to hit. Which faction has -2?

As far as I can tell it's always been the stack -2 to hit shenanigans that people objected to or the doom for not Craftworld units that people complained about and only 1 of those has been addressed yet.

I'd certainly agree that Alaitoc (and Alpha Legion) should get the RG "Count in cover at >12" treatment. Even without the second half (as it looks like Marine CTs are balanced around having 2+ "traits". But that's more about nerfing Eldar than how bad Marines are.

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

So what you actually mean is that the game has not been balanced, the tables just turned.
Did they just pull a 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy?

GW might be overcompensating here. BA might be a sweet spot, because at least they'll still sport a terrible CT compared to the vanilla boys.

Eldar have been frustrating most of the last 25 years. You can't get around that. It was they who broke the marine strangehold on 3rd even. They had to be pretty OP to do that.

Alaitoc and Plaguebearers are on the clock. The nerf bat is coming for both.
GW clearly wants to limit modifiers, and the Plaguebearers will be nerfed with points increases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

So what you actually mean is that the game has not been balanced, the tables just turned.
Did they just pull a 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy?

Lol too early to tell. But hey, if Astartes have a book that can run solo on a par with Dark Eldar, Eldar, GSC, Orks, etc then it's better for everyone.

I fear that the dirty stuff comes when armies start mixing. The Primaris will have these facy units, rules and power but they will still be elite - that balances them.

 Ishagu wrote:
Alaitoc and Plaguebearers are on the clock. The nerf bat is coming for both.
GW clearly wants to limit modifiers, and the Plaguebearers will be nerfed with points increases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

So what you actually mean is that the game has not been balanced, the tables just turned.
Did they just pull a 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy?

Lol too early to tell. But hey, if Astartes have a book that can run solo on a par with Dark Eldar, Eldar, GSC, Orks, etc then it's better for everyone.

I fear that the dirty stuff comes when armies start mixing. The Primaris will have these facy units, rules and power but they will still be elite - that balances them.

I don't think limiting hit modifiers is the worst thing ever as long as we get those updated terrain rules from the last Chapter Approved as standard.

Most of these buffs aren't defensive. Most. So that means damage 2 is still a holocaust for them. Maybe its balanced, but this is a LOT of stuff added all at once.

GW might leave PB alone to sell more units that ignore hit mods. Who knows.

 Ishagu wrote:
Alaitoc and Plaguebearers are on the clock. The nerf bat is coming for both.
GW clearly wants to limit modifiers, and the Plaguebearers will be nerfed with points increases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

So what you actually mean is that the game has not been balanced, the tables just turned.
Did they just pull a 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy?

Lol too early to tell. But hey, if Astartes have a book that can run solo on a par with Dark Eldar, Eldar, GSC, Orks, etc then it's better for everyone.

I fear that the dirty stuff comes when armies start mixing. The Primaris will have these facy units, rules and power but they will still be elite - that balances them.

Aye, it is not an army that needs to be overall topperformer due to the shere ammount of potential allies.
Same with Chaos marines. (altough their IG equivalent is well, gak)
but he, atleast you now shell out 42.50£ for your chapter so it better be decent

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

My God dude you ever fething stop with being a martyr for the most consistently topping army in the game or what?

Almost every single thread gets derailed into "Marines are garbage". Even when they were OP. And people complaining about the silliness are just "martyr"s for another faction?

Replace CWE with just about any other book, the point remains the same. IronHands/Uthwe was just the most conveinient comparison.

Marines are OP until everyone after their codex release gets one.
Demi Company was a stupid and broken concept to begin with, so the fact they weren't just a solid #1 from that speaks volumes on what was released afterwards.

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

Yeah...its a little much to be honest. Wouldn't some simple point drops have been okay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So now that Marines are getting CTs that blow CWE's out of the water, are we going to see any less "But CWE's everything is better in every way" on this forums? Or hear about how Iron Hand's CT is worse (somehow) than Uthwes?

My God dude you ever fething stop with being a martyr for the most consistently topping army in the game or what?

Almost every single thread gets derailed into "Marines are garbage". Even when they were OP. And people complaining about the silliness are just "martyr"s for another faction?

Replace CWE with just about any other book, the point remains the same. IronHands/Uthwe was just the most conveinient comparison.

Marines are OP until everyone after their codex release gets one.
Demi Company was a stupid and broken concept to begin with, so the fact they weren't just a solid #1 from that speaks volumes on what was released afterwards.

I was just thinking this. This reminds me so much of 7.5 eddition and how the game became a complete mess. Scratching your head about how strong the rules are you reading are...

Like seriously 7th eddition marines were complete gak except for superfriends (which was basically a combination of a bunch of special characters from mutliple codex - if you were playing mono ultra marines for example - probably the worst army or at least one of the worst armies). They get 7.5 codex with gladius which was pretty good for a while unitl Ynnari comes out and can literally beat 4k marine armies with 2000 points of ynnari the most busted rules ever, daemonic incursion basically allowing you to pick the daemon table every turn...This is bad news for the game. Soon people will stop playing it cause it is going to get so out of hand.

I guess they don't want power armor horde.

I am a bit worried that most of these buffs make marines better at killing other marines. There is not many defensive buffs, and not much that will help against cheap chaff. I expect marine vs. marine matches to be utter bloodbaths.

 Crimson wrote:
I am a bit worried that most of these buffs make marines better at killing other marines. There is not many defensive buffs, and not much that will help against cheap chaff. I expect marine vs. marine matches to be utter bloodbaths.

Yup. I seem to agree with you a lot.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Looking over everyting and now the doctrines, Astartes might just have become the best army on the tabletop.

They can be immune to charges with proper army builds and positions, can hard counter GSC and Orks, will have the most potent shooting, and now can zoom around and drop out Hellblasters from cheap-ish transports with a 4+ invul!
Veteran Intercessors will be dropping elite units with ease. Characters will be sniped without difficulty - imagine 10 Shots with Ap-3, Damage 2 that can target a character from 36" away. It's happening.

I'm loving the heavy weapon snipers, going to position them all over the board.

The Docrines are the icing on the cake!

Yeah...its a little much to be honest. Wouldn't some simple point drops have been okay?

You see, Shock assault for exemple could've been dropped with you know, giving all marines propper equipment for their generalist role (Bolter, boltpistol and chainsword)
Wouldn't have sold a new dex though because no rules change necessary.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was just thinking this. This reminds me so much of 7.5 eddition and how the game became a complete mess. Scratching your head about how strong the rules are you reading are...

I should be in fact ashamed of my post above - thinking about 7th edition Fantasy while we are also witnessing a 7th edition 40k phenomenon - LET'S PILE UP MORE RULES!!! ON TOP OF EACH OTHER!!!

In my opinion, regardless of the outcome that could be a net positive, this is another sign of the weakness of the basic rules, in the same way the double-tap rules used to hotfix weapons like the the ones on the Leman Russ turret.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess they don't want power armor horde.

The only thing missing for primaris now is recycling.
Actually that is missing from all loyalist chapters.

But he Red corsairs can. Shame that their trait is stuck, and dex 2.0 came out allready soo.
I am going to assume no, we won't see any PA horde army.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was just thinking this. This reminds me so much of 7.5 eddition and how the game became a complete mess. Scratching your head about how strong the rules are you reading are...

I should be in fact ashamed of my post above - thinking about 7th edition Fantasy while we are also witnessing a 7th edition 40k phenomenon - LET'S PILE UP MORE RULES!!! ON TOP OF EACH OTHER!!!

In my opinion, regardless of the outcome that could be a net positive, this is another sign of the weakness of the basic rules, in the same way the double-tap rules used to hotfix weapons like the the ones on the Leman Russ turret.

He now, the leman russ atleast got fixed by a double tap rule.

Not unlike a certain faction that needed a double tap stratagem to get fixed

I'll be lookiing forward to disembarking 3 Flamer Aggressors 8" from an Impulsor with a 4+ invul after it moves, and then hitting something with 6D6 auto hits.

The Eliminators will be a nightmare with their 1+ save in cover. They won't care about auto cannon-like weapons at all.

Also everything can be amazing in combat. Veteran Intercessors will be real killers with 40 shots at AP-2 and 42 attacks with AP-1 on the charge. They will be some of the best troops in the game, bar none.

How much can you drop points though before you invalidate the design space of other units or even armies?

That's why I was for adding on rules.

Not Online!!! wrote:

You see, Shock assault for exemple could've been dropped with you know, giving all marines propper equipment for their generalist role (Bolter, boltpistol and chainsword)
Wouldn't have sold a new dex though because no rules change necessary

Is more of a conflict with the mold and how the models are designed in general. I cannot really be too mad at GW anymore because step by step I realized how deep the post-chapterouse-stress-disorder goes. I fear for some ork unit when resin tankbustas and kommandos will eventually go missing.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was just thinking this. This reminds me so much of 7.5 eddition and how the game became a complete mess. Scratching your head about how strong the rules are you reading are...

I should be in fact ashamed of my post above - thinking about 7th edition Fantasy while we are also witnessing a 7th edition 40k phenomenon - LET'S PILE UP MORE RULES!!! ON TOP OF EACH OTHER!!!

In my opinion, regardless of the outcome that could be a net positive, this is another sign of the weakness of the basic rules, in the same way the double-tap rules used to hotfix weapons like the the ones on the Leman Russ turret.

I am concerned...but I will buy all this gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much can you drop points though before you invalidate the design space of other units or even armies?

That's why I was for adding on rules.

It's too complicated now. It really looks like marines will be OP now. With a 10% to 20% drop in points it would have been a lot easier to see how units compare. Now with a billion special rules...it is REALLY hard to break that down.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much can you drop points though before you invalidate the design space of other units or even armies?

That's why I was for adding on rules.

Good question.
Personally i belive that the introduction of superheavies and LOW in the 2000pts range was a massive mistake.
Because that leads to an race to the bottom, if your infantry is not so cheap that it is negligable if they die then you lose.

It's difficult really.

It's not just superheavies. It's all cheap weaponry that treats marines like grots. Now, this is more sci-fi accurate, as offense usually outstrips defense. But it's not appropriate for techno-barbarism.

Well they changed quite a bit of stuff in this book. I got my fingers crossed now that they buffed the apothecary (probably my favorite Primaris model).

With all these changes I think mono marines are going to be strong. But not game breaking. It's like martel said, none of these are really defensive so it seems more along the lines of even if a marine unit loses a couple models in a unit it can still put up a fight!

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

You see, Shock assault for exemple could've been dropped with you know, giving all marines propper equipment for their generalist role (Bolter, boltpistol and chainsword)
Wouldn't have sold a new dex though because no rules change necessary

Is more of a conflict with the mold and how the models are designed in general. I cannot really be too mad at GW anymore because step by step I realized how deep the post-chapterouse-stress-disorder goes. I fear for some ork unit when resin tankbustas and kommandos will eventually go missing.

Let's be very clear about one thing:

"Piracy is not a game problem, it's a service problem"
Take the new reaper chaincannon for CSM, the only "service" i get for them is the havoc box at one a pop. That is BAD service.
I am also not willing to shell out for each CSM box 2 havoc boxes aswell f.e. so where do i go?

GW has had gak service for a long time. And it isn't like they could've just let it slide, THEY are by FAR the biggest fish in the pond of that market.

Bear in mind intercessors are most likely staying at 17 ppm too

To be fair: a FEW are defensive. IH vehicles are gonna be a bear. BUT most marine vehicles weren't competitively priced to begin with.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just superheavies. It's all cheap weaponry that treats marines like grots. Now, this is more sci-fi accurate, as offense usually outstrips defense. But it's not appropriate for techno-barbarism.

Why is the weaponry so cheap then? Not because the scale creept ever more upwards making the PG from once 15-20 pts now into an 11 pts gun?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was just thinking this. This reminds me so much of 7.5 eddition and how the game became a complete mess. Scratching your head about how strong the rules are you reading are...

I should be in fact ashamed of my post above - thinking about 7th edition Fantasy while we are also witnessing a 7th edition 40k phenomenon - LET'S PILE UP MORE RULES!!! ON TOP OF EACH OTHER!!!

In my opinion, regardless of the outcome that could be a net positive, this is another sign of the weakness of the basic rules, in the same way the double-tap rules used to hotfix weapons like the the ones on the Leman Russ turret.

I am concerned...but I will buy all this gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much can you drop points though before you invalidate the design space of other units or even armies?

That's why I was for adding on rules.

It's too complicated now. It really looks like marines will be OP now. With a 10% to 20% drop in points it would have been a lot easier to see how units compare. Now with a billion special rules...it is REALLY hard to break that down.

I didn't think THAT many rules needed to be added either. I like the idea behind most of the redone Chapter Tactics, and I would've maybe added a proc rule to Bolt weapons and such, and then clean up how certain units get equipment. I'm kinda iffy on the Doctrines (mostly because they initially reward camping, which we need less of to be frank).