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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

Yes, but something simplistic like locking World Eaters to Assault Doctrine or Iron Warriors to Devastator Doctrine wouldn't be the craziest concept in the world.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

if this is part of angels of death the doctrines will be avalaible to everyone, even non codex chapters like space wolves. but I agree loyalists do typically fight more cohesivly then chaos marines.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

if this is part of angels of death the doctrines will be avalaible to everyone, even non codex chapters like space wolves. but I agree loyalists do typically fight more cohesivly then chaos marines.

So AL, IW , WB, BL are all unorganized morons?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

The Book of Lorgar is concerned with weightier things than Codex Astartes, a tome of mere tactics and strategy.

If I will have to wait 8 months to get updated to the vanilla codex level *again*, I'll probably drop this game like I did in the middle of 7ed.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:

And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)

So excuse me but that is BS

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I made some ill-advised attempts at painting this as balanced.

I was wrong.

I got nothing.

I think perhaps people are jumping the gun again on impressions. Maybe not. I dunno.

The doctrines are the only immediate buff outside mediocre weapons. Everything else has a cost associated with it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I made some ill-advised attempts at painting this as balanced.

I was wrong.

I got nothing.

I think perhaps people are jumping the gun again on impressions. Maybe not. I dunno.

The doctrines are the only immediate buff outside mediocre weapons. Everything else has a cost associated with it.

Still strange situation where mirror traits did not get any mention for an update now isn't it.
and more stratagems mean by shere virtue more chances for GW giving us more "great and fun and balanced " stratagems tm

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:

And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)

So excuse me but that is BS

They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.

These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.

Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?

No.

So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

You don't get anythig as DW IIIIFFFFFF the article is right, however when we remember stuff like beta bolter rule then by all means go ahead.

I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:

And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)

So excuse me but that is BS

yes but they're not orginized the same way as space marine chapters. they're also ,MUCH MUCH less... for lack of a better term bonded, then codex marines. Marinus Calgar doesn't have to worry about Cato Sicirus literally stabbing him in the back

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O

Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.

Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.

Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.

Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_doctrine

I see someone never had been forced to make NCO

DAMN YOU SWISS STATE*angry fistshaking.

Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?

Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.

Also, the article says:

Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…

AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:

And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)

So excuse me but that is BS

They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.

These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.

Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?

No.

No but the scourged, Purge, Flawless, RC, etc still do to an extent because that is all they know?
The argument still makes no sense and i remain adamant about it beeing BS

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Here's hoping Land Raiders get Assault Vehicle

Not sure it'll help. Didn't it say they can't charge on the same turn they disembark or did I just not retain the info?

Otherwise a Land Raider still doesn't get things into melee quickly which is what I would want

Am I the only one to think it's a little ironic that a rule named "Assault Vehicle" neither helps the unit get other units into melee nor makes it better at assaulting by itself?

why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.

The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest

BrianDavion wrote:
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.

What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?

Martel732 wrote:
This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.

Which should never have happened in the first place.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.

What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?

it was sold to me and it is annoying I agree. but it is what it is.

I mean if an Iron warriors player asked me if he could just use the IFs trait I'd tell him to go for it. but not everyone is as generous as I am.

BrianDavion wrote:
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

Tomatoe - tomato, potatoe - potato. I didn't think we were getting Angels of Death initially, but GW has created the expectation now, the rest is just conjecture about how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.

Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something

I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.

What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?

it was sold to me and it is annoying I agree. but it is what it is.

I mean if an Iron warriors player asked me if he could just use the IFs trait I'd tell him to go for it. but not everyone is as generous as I am.

Sure, that's nice, but you are not the issue, or the rules itself.

The issue is that GW knew that they fethed 75% of all TRAITS in nearly ALL books.
Yet they updated 1 book,after their EVIL twin got their update which had similar TRAITS, infact even MIRRORED ones. And nothing really changed in that book beyond a heavy nerf bat to the standard unit it fielded and shadowspear stuff. In essence the updates worthless cashgrab.

Now we get supplements, bloat and no ONES happy really.

Look at half the marine player in here, doubting that it is a good change, even MARTEL for gods sake. I mean chances are higher that hell freezes over!

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.

Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.

Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?

Here's the actual quote:

So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels

It doesnt say what you want it to say.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?

Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?

Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.

Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.

Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?

Here's the actual quote:

So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels

It doesnt say what you want it to say.

Beta bolter rule article description?
Remember that?