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Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

magic 8 ball says prospect unlikely.

Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

Marine infantry was already very weak for its cost. Why should it go up more? All this stuff is still just going to get melted by plasma anyway.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.

accurate description of the situation is accurate.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.

Slaanish is running GW confirmed!

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

No because then there is no improvement.

Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.

Things need to be tested, but it feels like a lot of bonus special rules on top of each other which is always powerful. Not convinced it's the best thing for balance - but we are clearly in 8.5 edition now and I dont see why Marines should remain a punching bag. Will be interesting to see what comes next. Sisters I guess.

 Ishagu wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

No because then there is no improvement.

Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.

There's no improvement but they needed the boost? Seems contradictory.

Anyway, they don't need a points increase generally. They were below par now, and will probably be mid tier with this stuff. In the sweet spot.

I'm not yet convinced they'll be winning big tournaments (and if they do I'm certain people will still be running loyal 32 for chaff and CP), but they'll feel a lot better to play casually. And it's possible with new Stratagems etc in the book that they do become competitive!

The only players who should be complaining about this are Grey Knights really, who are left even further behind (and Shock Assault really doesn't do anywhere near enough to make that army decent!).

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

No because then there is no improvement.

Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.

There's no improvement but they needed the boost? Seems contradictory.

Anyway, they don't need a points increase generally. They were below par now, and will probably be mid tier with this stuff. In the sweet spot.

I'm not yet convinced they'll be winning big tournaments (and if they do I'm certain people will still be running loyal 32 for chaff and CP), but they'll feel a lot better to play casually. And it's possible with new Stratagems etc in the book that they do become competitive!

The only players who should be complaining about this are Grey Knights really, who are left even further behind (and Shock Assault really doesn't do anywhere near enough to make that army decent!).

He was saying that if the points increased then there wouldn't be an improvement. The marines needed a boost to be competitive and now they are getting it through rule changes rather than point changes.

All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable

 fraser1191 wrote:
All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable

The best defense is a good offense I guess

balmong7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable

The best defense is a good offense I guess

What was that about gw trying to migitate frontloadin armies?
Get turn 1 you now stand a chance as marines.
Don't get turn 1. Bend over as usual.

Not Online!!! wrote:

balmong7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable

The best defense is a good offense I guess

What was that about gw trying to migitate frontloadin armies?
Get turn 1 you now stand a chance as marines.
Don't get turn 1. Bend over as usual.

That's what the Apoc turn structure is for. We're all supposed to just figure out that we should be putting markers down and not removing casualties until the end of the round now.

The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

To be fair...it isn't a basic troop squad. It costs more than 4 infantry squads. You almost get a full batallion of IG for it's cost. Realistically at it maxium output it is actually going to be more impressive. Take those numbers and double them (that is vets getting to shoot twice for the rapid fire strat) then increase it even more for being crimson(imperial) fists/ultramarines with gman (esp vs vehicals). Instead of point drops they decided to make marines super elite...I feel they have gone a little to far with it but IG complaining about OP troops...that will never get old.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:

5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+

Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.

Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.

The Newman wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:

5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+

Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.

Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.

Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK

But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.

However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:

5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+

Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.

Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.

Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK

But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.

However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.

Not vs special weapons though - what is really scary right now is how good marines are at killing marines.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

Alright let's slow this down a little.

Turn 1 these Intercessors have no AP bonus, which means they are effectively no different than they were before.

20 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 5.9 Firewarriors = 41 points

Now, as you say, they kill 7.4 = 52 points

So they kill maaaybe an extra firewarrior and a half on turn 2 if they got to stand still.

Now take 17 firewarriors and 5 pathfinders with a pulse accelerator and 2 ion rifles - 175 points. That's enough lights to mark to reroll 1s.

17 * .583 * .666 * .333 = 2.2 = 37 points
4 * .5 * .833 * .5 * 2 = 1.7 = 28 points

So these Tau kill MORE points of Intercessors at a range OUTSIDE the Intercessor's reach. Are we really going to call them "nuts" with "overwhelming firepower"?

Even if you took ONLY firewarriors they would still do 45 points of damage which eclipses Intercessors without the doctrine bonus and comes close to them with it.

I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.

1 CP stratagem to switch to another combat doctrine, even one you've already used? Yeah, that would surprise me not at all.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :

7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).

For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.

A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:

5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+

Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.

Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.

Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK

But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.

However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.

Actually actually, I did my numbers wrong. I was calculating the damge for two 10-man Guard squads because that's what a min squad of Intercessors costs and not figuring in the cost of the characters since they'd be in the list regardless. You said you were calculating for a max 10-man Intercessor squad, so I should have run the numbers for four squads of Guardsmen instead of two.

And yes, an Intercessor has more staying power than a Guardsman. He does not have more staying power than the four Guardsmen that you get for the same points.

If we're including the cost of the characters (which I think is a bad idea since the Marine characters buff more things so it balances out) then I should have used six squads of Guardsmen instead.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.

Probably, but then you'll lose cover / exploding 6s / ignore AP1 / 6+++.

There are plenty of tradeoffs and marines will be no means be unstoppable.

Raven Guard marines in cover already HAD cover and -1 to be hit. Now it's worse, but their vehicles get it. Does this make RG marines more powerful than before? No.
Salamanders ignore AP1. Does this make them better against lasguns, pulse rifles, and choppas? Not one bit.
Iron Hands marines already had the 6+++, but now they overwatch better. This doesn't make them better except in very specific circumstances.
White Scars & Black Templars are all about the bikes or melee, so nothing for non-melee marines here, either.
Ultramarines are unchanged.
Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are the only ones that genuinely improved with exploding 6s.

So that leaves us with ONE extra AP situationally applied and likely to just infantry. THIS is what is going to break the game?

Unless you're waiting until turn THREE you're not getting AP on those flamer aggressors (unless UM can change it), which will ONLY be 3 aggressors in a tank that likely costs hundreds of points.

Guardsmen also screen your more expensive, better shooting units while the Intercessors themselves are the more expensive, better shooting unit. The value of just standing in the way of Tank Commanders and various artillery pieces cannot be overstated.

Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc

Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.

White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.


Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.

Two ten-man Guardsman squads and the CC needed to order them cost 115pts.

With FRFSRF at long range, for 36 shots, they average two wounds against Primaris. That's one kill.

Seven Intercessors cost 119pts.

With Bolter Discipline, and Doctrine for bonus AP, for 14 shots, they average 6.22 wounds against Guard.

In a straight shootout the Intercessors kill 31% of their opposing number, while the Guardsmen manage 14%. The Intercessors out-shoot Guard by about 50% and are considerably more durable. If the Guardsmen can close to short range, then their relative killing power roughly equals out (remaining slight edge to the Intercessors), but Intercessors have longer range and are likely to get the first shot off.

If the Intercessors have the benefit of cover, their casualties are cut in half, making it even more lopsided. Guardsmen receive only a 20% increase in durability due to cover in this example.

I'm not going to debate the merits of board control or flexibility of Guard orders or vulnerability of Intercessors to plasma, but if you guys are going to do mathematical comparisons between Guard and Marines on planet bowling ball, either you take the cost of FRFSRF into account, or we can just as fairly assume the Marines are getting buffed by Guilliman and give them full re-rolls.

 Ishagu wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...

No because then there is no improvement.

Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.

Agreed, if they go up in cost it would be a huge step backwards. As much as I would prefer Marines being more durable, upping their damage potential this dramatically is a huge step in the right direction.
It will mean they can hurt the right units early (like proper Shock troops) and by extension take less damage later.

So long as the points do NOT increase, Marines will finally be posed to function more closely to their intended fluff, but hardly will be OP considering we've gotten no indication that Marines are getting any kind of durability buff (save a handful of Chapter Tactics that give a slight buff, but nothing substantial)

-

 Ishagu wrote:

The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.

That seems surprisingly reasonable. Where're you hearing that from? (not disputing, just trying to source data)

Sterling191 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.

That seems surprisingly reasonable. Where're you hearing that from? (not disputing, just trying to source data)

Rumours knocking around, apparently the Incursors are 19 points each also, and the Las Fusils are 15 points. We'll know soon enough if this is correct.

If the Impulsor is 75, make it 85 by the time you factor in two storm bolters and an Ironhail heavy stubber.

I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.