New marine abilities

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**Daedalus81**

Ishagu wrote:
Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc

Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.

White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.

Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.

I'm talking strictly about marines as the uproar occurred after the doctrines.

Tactics applying to vehicles DOES give the armies themselves a boost. Does a single reroll for tanks who likely already hit on 3s and wound on 3s with reroll 1s for both tilt the game? I'm going to say not likely.

Impulsor should be rhino stats then I'd assume.

Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.

I'm just fighting fire with fire.

Mathhammer is largely garbage.

**Martel732**

Ishagu wrote:
Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc

Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.

White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.

Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.

I have found it easier to outshoot Tau than trying to assault their castles. Tau are like an NPC boss fight from a video game.

**Ishagu**

Yeah you just have to cut the range and get more guns to shoot them. Marines have plenty of ways to do it now.

I'm loving the Infiltrators that get the Captain aura everywhere on the table. They cripple GSC completely, and GSC are a hard counter to many lists.

**Daedalus81**

Ishagu wrote:
Yeah you just have to cut the range and get more guns to shoot them. Marines have plenty of ways to do it now.

I'm loving the Infiltrators that get the Captain aura everywhere on the table. They cripple GSC completely, and GSC are a hard counter to many lists.

You lose helix when you do that so no DS blocking.

**Martel732**

I have found its as simple as plopping in cover and shooting their T3 3+ guys in cover with my T4 2+ guys. The fact that this is my method with BA is very depressing. But I'm not gonna be the other guy that charged in with 15 DC from DS and ended with zero after overwatch.

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.

Probably, but then you'll lose cover / exploding 6s / ignore AP1 / 6+++.

There are plenty of tradeoffs and marines will be no means be unstoppable.

Raven Guard marines in cover already HAD cover and -1 to be hit. Now it's worse, but their vehicles get it. Does this make RG marines more powerful than before? No.
Salamanders ignore AP1. Does this make them better against lasguns, pulse rifles, and choppas? Not one bit.
Iron Hands marines already had the 6+++, but now they overwatch better. This doesn't make them better except in very specific circumstances.
White Scars & Black Templars are all about the bikes or melee, so nothing for non-melee marines here, either.
Ultramarines are unchanged.
Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are the only ones that genuinely improved with exploding 6s.

So that leaves us with ONE extra AP situationally applied and likely to just infantry. THIS is what is going to break the game?

Unless you're waiting until turn THREE you're not getting AP on those flamer aggressors (unless UM can change it), which will ONLY be 3 aggressors in a tank that likely costs hundreds of points.

I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.

**Sterling191**

Ishagu wrote:

I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.

Missile cost will depend on if its a double (which I hope it wont be). If so expect CML pricing. Real question is whether it'll have Fly or not, and whether it can leave the large hardpoint empty.

All told its shaping up to be a damn good box.

**Ishagu**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
Yeah you just have to cut the range and get more guns to shoot them. Marines have plenty of ways to do it now.

I'm loving the Infiltrators that get the Captain aura everywhere on the table. They cripple GSC completely, and GSC are a hard counter to many lists.

You lose helix when you do that so no DS blocking.

The rule that blocks 12" arrivals is called Omni Scramblers. The Helix Adept gives the 5+ recover wound. Happy to trade that for re-roll hits all the time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:

I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.

Missile cost will depend on if its a double (which I hope it wont be). If so expect CML pricing. Real question is whether it'll have Fly or not, and whether it can leave the large hardpoint empty.

All told its shaping up to be a damn good box.

It will 100% have fly. No question about it

**Xenomancers**

Ishagu wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Ishagu wrote:

The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.

That seems surprisingly reasonable. Where're you hearing that from? (not disputing, just trying to source data)

Rumours knocking around, apparently the Incursors are 19 points each also, and the Las Fusils are 15 points. We'll know soon enough if this is correct.

If the Impulsor is 75, make it 85 by the time you factor in two storm bolters and an Ironhail heavy stubber.

I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.

105 with the rocket sounds really nice.

**Kanluwen**

I'm actually questioning whether it will have Fly or not.

I expected the Skorpius to have Fly or a pseudo-Fly rule. It had neither.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.

Yes, absolutely - if you build your army for heavy you're going to benefit immediately, but then you're also making other tradeoffs.

Cramming in stalker bolt rifles will halve your shots and fix your position, so, unless you intend to snipe characters I can't see them doing much to hordes. For 33 points you get a suppressor with AP3. It's still S7, so what is it doing better? You have a whole army that never wants to move.

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm actually questioning whether it will have Fly or not.

I expected the Skorpius to have Fly or a pseudo-Fly rule. It had neither.

It has fly dude. It is using the same tech as a repulsor.

**Daedalus81**

Ishagu wrote:

The rule that blocks 12" arrivals is called Omni Scramblers. The Helix Adept gives the 5+ recover wound. Happy to trade that for re-roll hits all the time.

I stand corrected. Brutal.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.

Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.

**Daedalus81**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.

Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.

If it's not T8 and it has less than 12 wounds it shouldn't be that price.

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.

Yes, absolutely - if you build your army for heavy you're going to benefit immediately, but then you're also making other tradeoffs.

Cramming in stalker bolt rifles will halve your shots and fix your position, so, unless you intend to snipe characters I can't see them doing much to hordes. For 33 points you get a suppressor with AP3. It's still S7, so what is it doing better? You have a whole army that never wants to move.

That is kinda how marines play. You don't even want to move with your rapid fire weapons ether lol because bolter disc. That is why we like our repulsors.

**Ishagu**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.

Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.

Why? It has far less weapons and will be t7 with less wounds.
Compare a Rhino to a Landraider.

**Xenomancers**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.

Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.

How much is the admech transport?

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:
How much is the admech transport?

73 with all the bullets included. The chassis is 65.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.

Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.

If it's not T8 and it has less than 12 wounds it shouldn't be that price.

Yeah, its shaping up to be a Primaris Razorback, and is pretty close in price if statted accordingly.

For context, a naked Razorback clocks in at 70 points.

**Xenomancers**

so admech gets 12 str 4 36" range for 73 points - carries 10 dudes - ignores to hit penalties for heavies. Is t6 but will have +2 wounds so basically same defensive profile. 105 with missle/ fly keyword/ special assault deployment.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.

This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.

**Daedalus81**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.

This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.

Quantify 'fast as hell'. 5++ is an assumption. Washback is an assumption (though reasonable).

I wasn't involved the executioner debate. 250 for a model whose predecessor was at least 285 base makes me think you weren't talking with sane people.

**Xenomancers**

It's a razorback that has fly and another special rule.

**Sterling191**

Xenomancers wrote:
It's a razorback that has fly and another special rule.

Im personally not sold on the Impulsor having fly. Not after the duster hovercraft.

**fraser1191**

Xenomancers wrote:
It's a razorback that has fly and another special rule.

Seem more like an amalgamation between a rhino, a box to get you places, a whirlwind, rocket pod, and a stalker, iron hail icarus stuff. Though that will really only be good for bikes

**Daedalus81**

Sterling191 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
It's a razorback that has fly and another special rule.

Im personally not sold on the Impulsor having fly. Not after the duster hovercraft.

To have transports hugging cover and popping over with fly and THEN splling troops out...it's a considerably daunting proposition.

**Ishagu**

Lol The Executioner was 284 with weapons when it was released.

The AdMech transport was never a flyer, it has no base. Flying units have bases.

The rumour said the base cost is 75. That's all there is to it. Recent rumors have been very accurate in regards to this release, right down to he Ultras and WS supplement.

**Scallywag**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.

This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.

No, it won't... The Repulsor was around 300 points before the update. So nobody was wrong by about 150 points.

**bort**

The Impulsor base at 75 does seem cheap compared to the Rhino and Razorback. But, those tanks were overpriced. All this means to me is hopefully the Rhino chassis isn’t still 70 base vs the Impulsor 75 when the Impulsor gets more options and perks.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Honest question:

What other transports in 8th have the assault Transport rule?