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The Newman wrote:


...it effectively gives every UM vehicle Machine Spirit. That ain't bad.

Only if doctrines apply to vehicles.

Wayniac wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.

What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.

Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.

already edited my post - i mixed it up with Tactical Expertise, my mistake

Wayniac wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.

What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.

Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.

He mixed two things a little, but the UM doc is turn 2 and forward only unless they have a strat to change docs.

You know, I just thought...

Why does Devastator doctrine benefit grenades? Shouldn't grenades fall under the purview of Assault doctrine?

Wayniac wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.

What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.

Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.

Scions of Gulliman looks to be always on, pretty sure Nekooni is thinking of Tactical Expertise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:


...it effectively gives every UM vehicle Machine Spirit. That ain't bad.

Only if doctrines apply to vehicles.

"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."

* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Tigurius puts Ahriman to shame now though.

Not sure I agree, depends on price.

Scions of Guilliman is gross though. Especially if UM get a strat to further manipulate the currently active doctrine.

I'm tempering my angst a bit. I'm really glad the marines are getting this stuff, but I feel like CSM got phoned in quite a bit by comparison.

UM gets 16 strats to themselves. Black Legion got 8 of which one was redundant.

In the end I have lots of awesome stuff. It's just a little annoying, but I understand the dynamic of a living rule set.

That's insane then. It literally busts the meta open IMHO.

The Newman wrote:


"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."

* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.

Well, today's article you mean. Good catch. We're in for a wild ride.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Tigurius puts Ahriman to shame now though.

Not sure I agree, depends on price.

Scions of Guilliman is gross though. Especially if UM get a strat to further manipulate the currently active doctrine.

I'm tempering my angst a bit. I'm really glad the marines are getting this stuff, but I feel like CSM got phoned in quite a bit by comparison.

UM gets 16 strats to themselves. Black Legion got 8 of which one was redundant.

In the end I have lots of awesome stuff. It's just a little annoying, but I understand the dynamic of a living rule set.

Don’t worry, White Scars are getting the treatment, as well as more first Founding Chapters, heretic.

**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You know, I just thought...

Why does Devastator doctrine benefit grenades? Shouldn't grenades fall under the purview of Assault doctrine?

Grenade Launchers are my only guess.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

I feel ya brother... And after I got my GKs all nicely painted up...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

Hah.

Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.

Anyone able talk me out of it?

Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.

I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

Hah.

Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.

Anyone able talk me out of it?

Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.

I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.

Doctrines for vehicles certainly will be fun

If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

Hah.

Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.

Anyone able talk me out of it?

Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.

I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.

Put me down for Iron Hands getting a +1 to their FNP if within 6" of a character as their free equivalent to the Ultramarine ability.

Wayniac wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.

What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.

Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.

Its always on whenever the tactical doctrine is up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

Hah.

Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.

Anyone able talk me out of it?

Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.

I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.

Put me down for Iron Hands getting a +1 to their FNP if within 6" of a character as their free equivalent to the Ultramarine ability.

Think of it more like a chapter tactic because ultras don't really have one. Iron hands shouldn't be getting anymore freebies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:


"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."

* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.

Well, today's article you mean. Good catch. We're in for a wild ride.

Vehicles get doctrines? Or GW just sucks at writing rules or should I say the reviewer sucks at interpretation?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Vehicles get doctrines? Or GW just sucks at writing rules or should I say the reviewer sucks at interpretation?

It seems so. It's a running joke that the article writers don't know the rules, but I can't recall instances where they actually got it wrong with unambiguous wording.

My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.

Intercessors are running around, always rapid firing with ap-2 bolters.

Tiggy is Eldrad. Re rolls to cast AND +1 to cast and deny. Fantabulous.

Cherry on top is that it applies to vehicles, so heavy weapons on Redemptors now have no penalty to hit, as an example.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.

From the Chapter Tactics preview:

** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!

GKs are at least on tap to get some sort of update, but probably not one of those REDACTED books. Hopefully their .pdf is fairly extensive.

There's enough in the picture for all the 'Vanilla' founding chapters; UM, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist. No bets on whether they actually do it that way, or if they group them up somehow (Templars and CF bundled in with IF for instance), or if some.of the books are dedicated to completely new chapters or fleshing out the chapters like Emperor's Spears that were introduced in White Dwarf.

The Newman wrote:

GKs are at least on tap to get some sort of update, but probably not one of those REDACTED books. Hopefully their .pdf is fairly extensive.

It's going to be a single page that says "You get Shock Assault, have fun!".

Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.

I'm not putting my expensive ass eliminators in smite range. Or double tap range.

Kinda worried about what they're going to do for BT considering the strong shooting buffs they're throwing around. I'd really like to avoid being stuck in a shooting Codex with a melee army again.

 Ishagu wrote:
My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.

I think the only saving grace is that it will be hard to have enough units in range. You'll certainly overkill the gak out of IS though.

Little consolation though.

Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
**Weeps in Greyknight and Deathwatch**

Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?

Hah.

Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.

Anyone able talk me out of it?

Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.

I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.

If this comes with doctrine manipluation. Ultras will still be on top. I never would have expected a rule this strong to be handed out for free...also...why isn't it just part of their chapter tact?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.

Once per game. If the Serg is carrying the Carbide, which probably replaces his proper gun. Still a good ability, but not quite as good as it looks at first glance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

If this comes with doctrine manipluation. Ultras will still be on top. I never would have expected a rule this strong to be handed out for free...also...why isn't it just part of their chapter tact?

Yea, it would have been a rule that was just fine on its own let alone stacking with the others. Good grief.

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.

Once per game. If the Serg is carrying the Carbide, which probably replaces his proper gun. Still a good ability, but not quite as good as it looks at first glance.

From the wording, it appears to be once per TURN, not once per GAME.

Edit: Rules pic.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.

No, I did not miss this, I've been taunting my buddy who plays GSC relentlessly with these updates.