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Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.

Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.

I would hope for a stratagem that BT LRC gained the assault vehical rule.

You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.

They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.

Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.

Assuming this thing moves 12

12 +6+3+12=33" if you got only 48 across than that 15" to hide your dude

Assuming you get a 12 for your charge. Average is only 7.

12 for move
12 for deployment
3 for disembark
5 or 6 for move
Avg of 7 for changes.


Plus it can fly so yeah I kinda get why it won't let you charge

 fraser1191 wrote:
12 for move
12 for deployment
3 for disembark
5 or 6 for move
Avg of 7 for changes.


Plus it can fly so yeah I kinda get why it won't let you charge

Ah. That makes more sense.

Average of 2D6 reroll one or both is higher than 7 though.

Dudeface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
With any luck, FW is shut down.

Good so I can stop facing all those game breaking renegade guard units and marines lose access to those vindicator laser destroyers ruling the competitive scene.

Haven't you heard, Corsairs are filthy Aeldari jetbike spamming plebian competitive WAAC asshats.
There's all the Fw Op stuff i tell you.

Btw they also seem to eat kittens.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.

Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.

I would hope for a stratagem that BT LRC gained the assault vehical rule.

You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.

They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.

Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.

I wouldn't. CC focus chapter should CC better than shooty chapters. Reroll charge isn't enough. Yes - the strat should also allow them to charge. That is what it takes to have a good CC build. You have to be able to lay down a turn 1 charge with a strong unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.

Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.

I would hope for a stratagem that BT LRC gained the assault vehical rule.

You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.

They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.

Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.

I wouldn't. CC focus chapter should CC better than shooty chapters. Reroll charge isn't enough. Yes - the strat should also allow them to charge. That is what it takes to have a good CC build. You have to be able to lay down a turn 1 charge with a strong unit.

I agree I just find some of GW's decisions have a habit/had a habit of right idea failed execution. Or atleast did for 7th and early 8th edition, they had a good concept but just rushed it or epic failed at understanding their own rules interactions.

I'm willing to bet there's either a generic or white scars stratagem to charge out of the rhino

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm willing to bet there's either a generic or white scars stratagem to charge out of the rhino

I sure hope so. I hope whitescars and BT get it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm willing to bet there's either a generic or white scars stratagem to charge out of the rhino

I sure hope so. I hope whitescars and BT get it.

It's probably why you can't so they can limit it (more or less) through CP

They beat me to it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.

Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.

I would hope for a stratagem that BT LRC gained the assault vehical rule.

You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.

They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.

Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.

I bet there is a stratagem for it.

At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.

Not Online!!! wrote:


At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.

Similar boat here.

On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.

Similar boat here.

On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.

you know for all those times you see mass stalker bolters in a marine list

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.

Similar boat here.

On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.

you know for all those times you see mass stalker bolters in a marine list

I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.

Not Online!!! wrote:


I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.

They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.

They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.

They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.

 Stux wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.

They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.

They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.

Vs T4 3+ -
Stalker
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 after saves
Bolt Rifle
10 shots 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 1.7 after saves (No Rapid)
15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds 2.5 after saves (Half the time Rapid, Half the time not)
20 shots 13.5 hits, 6.7 wounding hits, 3.35 after saves (All Rapid, All Day)

Stalker with D2
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 to 4.48 (assuming D2 matters - 3.36 assuming it matters half the time. )

They were within about 10% if you assumed only rapid firing half the time - a decent assumption for a backfield objective camper that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.

Well then we basically can be certain that the Stalker rifle now is worth it.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well then we basically can be certain that the Stalker rifle now is worth it.

There's more to it than that, but on a unit you're going to take anyway for CP Generation, yeah it's probably a viable choice. Loading up on 1 shot D2 weapons doesn't do you a lot of good vs a Gaunt horde for example. You want to make sure you still get out an effective number of shots per turn.

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well then we basically can be certain that the Stalker rifle now is worth it.

There's more to it than that, but on a unit you're going to take anyway for CP Generation, yeah it's probably a viable choice. Loading up on 1 shot D2 weapons doesn't do you a lot of good vs a Gaunt horde for example. You want to make sure you still get out an effective number of shots per turn.

Considering the new fetish of stubbers for primaris, i somehow doubt that lack of dakka will be an issue.

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.

They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.

They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.

Vs T4 3+ -
Stalker
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 after saves
Bolt Rifle
10 shots 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 1.7 after saves (No Rapid)
15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds 2.5 after saves (Half the time Rapid, Half the time not)
20 shots 13.5 hits, 6.7 wounding hits, 3.35 after saves (All Rapid, All Day)

Stalker with D2
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 to 4.48 (assuming D2 matters - 3.36 assuming it matters half the time. )

They were within about 10% if you assumed only rapid firing half the time - a decent assumption for a backfield objective camper that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.

You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.

I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".

 Stux wrote:


You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.

I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".

that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.

I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.

Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:


You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.

I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".

that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.

I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.

Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.

I feel you are idealising circumstances for the Stalker is all.

Just a thought, but since they claim that the doctrines are part of the angels of death rule together with shock assault, does it mean that all astartes with Angels of Death will also get doctrines? Because in that case all non codex compliant chapters are quite happy.

keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:


You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.

I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".

that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.

I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.

Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.

Why not GW has play tested this codex and apparently we haven't even seen the most OP chapters yet or are you genuinely of the belief that Ultramarines shooting without a -1 to hit for heavys from turn 2 onwards is going to break the meta?

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it

It's free now iirc thanks to CA 18

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it

Nope, that's the auto bolt rifle. The Stalker is 0.