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Simple poll:

Belisarius Cawl will betray the Emporer,
and turn to chaos,
or
Not.

I personally see him pulling a Palpatine.

I want to see Cawl is actually an AI.

I don't know about Cawl going heretic but I can easily see him being declared Heretek. Admech have fought civil wars over a single design or methodology. His actions should've created a schism not seen since the heresy. Not only the heresy of new design, potential AI, and in general just doing whatever he pleases including freely working with a variety of xenos, but the idea that he could improve upon the emperors work with the space marines shouldn't have gone over well at all.

I mean, this is the Imperium that fought civil wars over how people tell time. You really mean to tell me Cawl can pull all that stuff and get off Scott free? I don't care if he has a primarch backing him, hasn't stopped that kind of thing before.

I would like to see some sort of civil war or schism that's a result of his actions. Whether Cawl has good intentions that just don't work out or a secret evil agenda, it seems way overdue for the space marines to have a civil war between those who embrace Primaris (Ultramarines) and those who don't (dark Angels, flesh tearers, etc.) That, or the admech schism over Cawl's radical departures from the teachings of the Mechanicus. Or maybe Cawl is sneaking these new marines to take over the Imperium, who knows? I just don't like how it was thrown in and about the only bones we're thrown to what should be a galaxy splitting event is some pissy Dark Angels getting mad Primaris found out about the Fallen and the Flesh Tearers captain saying that the primaris are just Ultramarines with a new coat of paint. I'm sure there are a few more but it really seems like more should be going on with this.

I think he would be in serious trouble if Guilliman hadn't defended him.
He is probably the greatest technological mind in the Imperium, and seems to actually care a lot about humanity's survival.

Nah. Belligerent Carl is going to be an uncritically portrayed super good guy forever, he has the adamantium impenetrable plot armor of "The guy who justifies GW putting out new Space Marine units"

It would be funny if Cawl issued "Order 66" and the Primaris turn on the old marines.

Improbable. Named characters with models don't die or change armies.

I think he'll stay more of a grey character. I think his intention will remain with protecting humanity (though from his view this will involve continuing to gather personal power), but that his actions will end up causing massive problems.

The hinted at Traitor Legion Primaris will be revealed, and that probably won't go well. Even if they are perfectly loyal, the ecclesiarchy will not like it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Improbable. Named characters with models don't die or change armies.

Colour Sgt Kell is dead, as is the Tau leader.

I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

I could see that happening. Fulgrim + Noise Marines would be a good reason to update Bile.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

Heretic. You and your false loyalists will be purged. We're the *real* loyalists.

Bharring wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

Heretic. You and your false loyalists will be purged. We're the *real* loyalists.

You never know, if regular marines get purged from the loyalist ranks I may have to go Chaos to field my army. . . only to find them being Primarised.

Cawl deliberately turning traitor would just be a boring cop-out. And I say that as someone who remains extremely skeptical of his introduction to the setting in the first place. It would be far more interesting, IMO, if it turned out he really does mean well, but that his arrogance and lack of social / political skills / judgement ends up getting him declared traitor unjustly. Bonus points if Guilliman is forced to publically denounce him for political reasons while knowing he is actually innocent.

I voted that he would stay Loyal, However he is constantly bugging Rowboat to include the traitor Primarchs geenseed in the Primaris project, So if he did this secretly and then we got some Traitor Primaris as a result.
I could see Rowboat withdrawing his protection and Cawl being an outcast.
If there was a Schism, and considering the proximity of mars to Terra, and that Cawl would have contingency planned for him falling out of favor, and the resources he controls, the story line could be quite interesting.

In seriousness...Cawl just wats to be the Fabricator General and a progressive one at that. Something which is fairly anathema to the Ad Mech.

God I hope not. I really liked Cawl when he was first introduced as he seemed like an interesting character but at this point he's basically just a plot device to push more new units and tear down more and more of what made the setting unique.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

That would be the most boring thing ever, seperate chaos marines and loyalists more not less.

I can't tell if the posts in this thread are genuine guesses, or just wishful thinking. It would be entirely out of character for Games-Workshop to turn any character traitor/outcast. Is there even a single example of this happening before? As far as I'm aware, every traitor character has been a traitor since their introduction, and their "turn" has always been part of their backstory.

As for Chaos getting Primaris marines, why would they? I mean there's potential for a White Dwarf article giving us some rules for that sure, but the recent Chaos Space Marines kits tells me that they almost certainly won't get their own Primaris kit as well.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

Heretic. You and your false loyalists will be purged. We're the *real* loyalists.

You never know, if regular marines get purged from the loyalist ranks I may have to go Chaos to field my army. . . only to find them being Primarised.

Na fam, they just get a nozzle up the backside and filled with WARP STUFFerrrrrrm i mean power. Gifts of power from the gods!

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm going with Cawl stays on the loyalist side, and Fabius Bile enables Chaos Primaris while getting a sweet new model.

It might be Fabius Bile- The Emperor's Children are due for some "screen time", but it happens due to a raid on the Sangprimus Portum not his experiments - Other Legion Geneseed is still other Legion geneseed, and Chaos needs Primaris geneseed to match their own. My money is on Cawl disobeying Guilliman and creating some Primaris from the less trustworthy but not 2nd and 11th Legions. He's going to decide he can show Guilliman it's ok, it can work, and some event will transpire to get those Primaris over to Chaos in such a way as to side-step Nurture vs Nature (again)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ginjitzu wrote:


As for Chaos getting Primaris marines, why would they? I mean there's potential for a White Dwarf article giving us some rules for that sure, but the recent Chaos Space Marines kits tells me that they almost certainly won't get their own Primaris kit as well.

Not this edition. Primaris are being Beta Tested right now. Once they're relatively bug free they will be side ported to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Improbable. Named characters with models don't die or change armies.

They do both, but at a rate rare enough to be the exception not the rule. Lord Solar Macharius, Captain Invictus, Captain Tycho... Potentially the Astral Claws.

Badab War (901.M41 - 912.M41)
The Second War for Armageddon 941.M41 through 943.M41.

The 2nd Ed Codexes may have listed the Astral Claws as loyalist without backstory. Or not at all.

Not a very interesting idea imo.
Theres enough potential story/plot points in 40k without having a major loyalist character turn just cuz.

As someone mentioned above, more info on what Fabius is up to would be more interesting.

If Primaris turn traitor, I'd like to see it be some from Loyalist geneseed. Have some of the ones from fallen Legions remain loyal whilst some Blood Angels Primaris find out Cawl hasn't actually cured the Red Thirst or Black Rage, just made them less common, but far more dangerous, or same but with Wolfen, or Salamanders, etc. Guys like the Sons Of The Phoenix (? I think that's the blatantly Emperor's Children looking dudes?) are totally flabbergasted and hunt their traitor brothers right into the arms of their own chaos forefathers, and even with the truth revealed, stay with the Imperium.

I do like the idea of Cawl being blamed and partially excommunicated but actually not being all that traitor-y.

craggy wrote:
If Primaris turn traitor, I'd like to see it be some from Loyalist geneseed. Have some of the ones from fallen Legions remain loyal whilst some Blood Angels Primaris find out Cawl hasn't actually cured the Red Thirst or Black Rage, just made them less common, but far more dangerous, or same but with Wolfen, or Salamanders, etc. Guys like the Sons Of The Phoenix (? I think that's the blatantly Emperor's Children looking dudes?) are totally flabbergasted and hunt their traitor brothers right into the arms of their own chaos forefathers, and even with the truth revealed, stay with the Imperium.

I do like the idea of Cawl being blamed and partially excommunicated but actually not being all that traitor-y.

That will happen, they're not going to tell players after decades that you can't create a fallen loyalist chapter anymore. And they've had numerous examples of Traitor Legion Loyalists show up as advisers/agents. Garro. Qruze. Barabus Dantioch. This could/will add some more, and it would be neat if they were playable Non-Keyword-Breaking characters you could add to battleforged loyalist armies - But it will most likely be limited to Black Library fiction.

I mentioned Nature vs Nurture earlier. I'm not sure if it's conscious or not, but that does seem to be a theme GW loves to play with, while not outright picking a side. They like to push groups over some edge either to the loyalists, or to the traitors but they like to do it in a way that both Nature and Nurture have something to point to for why or something that invalidates both at the time time, plus a mixture of it all. Horus was abandoned, and left without the guidance of his father the Emperor who withdrew from all the Primarchs cold turkey (Nurture). Horus was just covetous, ambitious, and evil to begin with (Nature). Horus was possesed during the ritual to save his life (Discredit both) Who knows? Like I said, I don't know if this is a purposeful social commentary like Star Trek, or if they're just playing with psychological motivations like a good author, of if it's all accidental and they fell into it backwards. But if you look for it, you'll find it over and over.

Nah.

As for Heretek?

Cawl assisted The Emperor. This is known. Cawl created The Primaris on the orders of Guilliman. Chances are, somewhere, he'll have written orders etc.

Therefore, the charges would never stick.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah.

As for Heretek?

Cawl assisted The Emperor. This is known. Cawl created The Primaris on the orders of Guilliman. Chances are, somewhere, he'll have written orders etc.

Therefore, the charges would never stick.

The 40K universe is a little too dystopian to believe rule of law from a government with its own Assassin's bureau will care if orders from the High Mucky Muck Grand Poobah are written down before they're purged from Imperial Records after the accused resisted Inquisitorial Arrest by letting the Assassin shoot him in the head from 4 rooftops away. But it wouldn't happen because Guilliman won't replace Cawl. Cawl is the best thing to happen to the Mechanicum - from a Primarch trying to save the Imperium's standpoint - in forever. Assuming Cawl does something that ends up unintentionally providing Primaris geneseed of Traitor Legions to the Traitor Legions there will be fallout, but not that kind.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah.

As for Heretek?

Cawl assisted The Emperor. This is known. Cawl created The Primaris on the orders of Guilliman. Chances are, somewhere, he'll have written orders etc.

Therefore, the charges would never stick.

Wasn't Arkhan Land practically a saint to the Admech and he still got murdered in cold blood? I don't really see how any of that makes Cawl immune to the level of insanity the admech is capable of. The sheer amount of jealousy, arrogance, and short-sightedness the average tech priest is capable of doesn't make me so confident that one wouldn't try to snuff Cawl out for his own chance at the limelight.

Have we actually seen any first hand accounts of him helping the Big E. Last we saw him in the HH he was a no body tech adept fleeing the aftermath of Horus's battle with Russ.

 Daba wrote:
I want to see Cawl is actually an AI.

The Cawl Inferior is totally an AI. No matter how much it denies this fact. Cawl is a Heretek of the highest order that needs exterminating PDQ.

Nah, AI can save the imperium if implemented correctly. They just need to invent primium while they are at it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Daba wrote:
I want to see Cawl is actually an AI.

The Cawl Inferior is totally an AI. No matter how much it denies this fact. Cawl is a Heretek of the highest order that needs exterminating PDQ.

Cawl inferior trolling Bobby G in the first Dark Imperium novel was on of my favorite parts. The G man knows he's made a deal with the devil in Cawl but doesn't have any other choice due to how messed up things are post fall of cadia.