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To make an argument for TLJ to be improved once it has a wider context, you'd have to find a compelling reason for the whole Casino sequence, the world's slowest starship race and the whole anti-heroic sacrifice debacle.

These are flaws that seem, to me at least, wholly contained within the movie with no particular impact to the wider arc (much of which that does is what I actually found to like in the movie, even Porgs!)

I don't see how any of that can be reframed effectively.

 Frazzled wrote:
I doubt JJ Abrams is doing anything from the old EU or anything. He's not that deep. ..

People can and have been drawing a lot of parallels between the sequel trilogy and what Rise appears to be doing with Dark Empire.

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make an argument for TLJ to be improved once it has a wider context, you'd have to find a compelling reason for the whole Casino sequence, the world's slowest starship race and the whole anti-heroic sacrifice debacle.

These are flaws that seem, to me at least, wholly contained within the movie with no particular impact to the wider arc (much of which that does is what I actually found to like in the movie, even Porgs!)

I don't see how any of that can be reframed effectively.

Granted. I was more referring to Luke dying for no reason and Rey being a nobody. Those are the 2 biggest issues I personally did not like about TLJ. Rise of Skywalker can change Rey's origin and at least bring Luke's character back, albeit in ghost form.

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 Frazzled wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
..... it fixes a tremendous number of problems with TLJ.

This is partly why I haven't committed to a particular opinion about TLJ just yet. There are so many ways Rise of Skywalker could change our perception or outright retcon stuff that happened in TLJ that rewatching it after RoS could make it worth the ride. Fingers crossed.
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Similarly, I don't think Empire would be as fondly remembered if not for Jedi's rather saccharine ending complimenting it well. Not that it likely matters for either TLJ or RoS in the internet era of entrenched opinions.

Do you mean Empire Strikes Back? The film has been critically acclaimed as the best of the Star Wars films, bar maybe the groundbreaking original.

Yes, but it got a lot more negative reactions initially than people remember it for today. Much of its greatness has been built up after Jedi made good on its promises and closed off its open threads in a mostly satisfying manner. It would still be a great film on its own merits, but I'm not sure it would be as fondly remembered if its follow up had flopped. It gets a lot of attention for being the best film in a great trilogy and benefits from a follow up that most people really love, but can still recognize its predecessor as being a bit taller by comparison.

I feel like saying that Luke 'died for no reason' is similar to saying that Obi-Wan 'died for no reason' in ANH.

They both refuse to fight their apprentices and both die so that others can live.

 Azreal13 wrote:
To make an argument for TLJ to be improved once it has a wider context, you'd have to find a compelling reason for the whole Casino sequence, the world's slowest starship race and the whole anti-heroic sacrifice debacle.

These are flaws that seem, to me at least, wholly contained within the movie with no particular impact to the wider arc (much of which that does is what I actually found to like in the movie, even Porgs!)

I don't see how any of that can be reframed effectively.

but 3d is cool ,gave TLJ another go last week and I'm fairly sure that's more or less the reason for the Casino, i don't have 3d telly but shots intended for 3d are really easy to spot

as for the spaceship chase, well hyper drive petrol is expensive and the rest of the fleet was busy having an agenda meeting, with whiteboards and powerpoint

and of suicide is fine if you've already got the majority of your command killed but not if it might save a few people cos you know boys are silly, unless its an old Jedi doing the exact same thing 10 minutes later

 Kanluwen wrote:
I feel like saying that Luke 'died for no reason' is similar to saying that Obi-Wan 'died for no reason' in ANH.

They both refuse to fight their apprentices and both die so that others can live.

The difference being the Obi-wan was PHYSICALLY on the Death Star and needed to buy some time for the others to escape. Luke was not physically on Crate and had already bought the time needed. He could have simply "turned off" the projection and been fine, then later rejoined the rest in physical form.

I get the reasoning behind why he died being the strain of the power, but that wasn't previously established and didn't have to be the case. We spent the whole of TFA looking for Luke, then most of TLJ with a shadow of Luke, then once Luke was finally back, just kidding - he's gone. WTF?

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 Turnip Jedi wrote:


as for the spaceship chase, well hyper drive petrol is expensive

How can the Rebellion be a threat if they are so incompetent to forget to gas up at the nearest Petrox station before going on a trip?

Meh, I don't mind it really. Tracking through Hyperspace is an interesting dilemma given how often the jump is used as a safety net in the setting. The overall arc including the secret mission to save the day and its surprise failing are all fun and set up the finale nicely. I quite like the overall idea that the ships are doomed but the people can survive and rebuild though it would have landed better with a couple scenes with tighter script work.

That said, its all too long and bloats the film as a whole. I'd love to see 20 min or so cut from the whole thing. The little animal escape is a nice change of tone and actually fairly succinct as I've rewatched it but gets bookended by a couple preachy speeches from DJ and Rose that don't really land. The same warped time problem with Luke's training and the Falcon chase feels more obvious in this film; in part because we're all a little older ans wiser and in part because there's no changes in the setting of the chase to mess with our perception of time passing. I've enjoyed the whole thing more on rewatches than I did originally, even if there's particularly pieces that I think would really improve it as a whole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
How can the Rebellion be a threat if they are so incompetent to forget to gas up at the nearest Petrox station before going on a trip?

They had plenty of gas to escape. They just didn't have a way to escape when the series go to safety net failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
He could have simply "turned off" the projection and been fine, then later rejoined the rest in physical form.

Is there any reason to think that is the case? He's also fake fighting the whole time they're trying to find their way out of the caves. He quits about the time Rey clears the path for everyone to escape.

I very much read the Luke situation as he'd made the choice to project with the foreknowledge it was going to cost him his life, which, IIRC, had already been set up earlier?

There was no "I'll just do this for a bit and I'll be ok" it was always "if I do this, it's only going to end one way."

 Azreal13 wrote:
I very much read the Luke situation as he'd made the choice to project with the foreknowledge it was going to cost him his life, which, IIRC, had already been set up earlier?

There was no "I'll just do this for a bit and I'll be ok" it was always "if I do this, it's only going to end one way."

When Rey first appears to Kylo in the link, he wonders how its possible and lists a couple ideas. One is Force projection, which he dismisses because doing so would kill her.

That's it, been a while since I watched it, couldn't quite remember.

Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

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Pop culture hates the idea of heroes giving up and generally would rather see them fight to their last breath. No rewards, no rest, they fight until they die and the longer they live the more frustrating it is they can't get a happy ending (still mad about Mara). On that note, it's probably the single most surprising thing about Endgame. The story completely earns it, but people are still mad Cap got a happy end.

 Galef wrote:
Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

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I thought it was about the actors not wanting to do any more of these films?

(and after the last pils of gak who can blame them....)

 Galef wrote:
Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

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Why did Obi-Wan have to die?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

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Why did Obi-Wan have to die?

Padme should have died in ESB so each film could have the death of one of the big three from the first 3 films.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

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Why did Obi-Wan have to die?

Because Vader got between him and the MF.


The force projection death in TLJ was foreshadowed. So was Luke having an X wing that could take him off planet if he changed his mind. Wouldn't have been much of a fakeout if they'd left Luke stranded with no ship.



In ANH Obi died because Vader was on his game.

In TLJ Luke died because he took too long of a pity party.

 Frazzled wrote:
How can the Rebellion be a threat if they are so incompetent to forget to gas up at the nearest Petrox station before going on a trip?

The Rebellion gassed up before Yavin, Endor, and Scarrif. You're thinking of the Resistance that runs their fleet like a teenager with their first car. They're totally different and not just a nonstalgic rehash lacking any creativity new faction.

 Galef wrote:
Right, that line was written in as foreshadowing for later on. But WHY did it need to be foreshadowed and happen at all? Why does that power have to kill the user? Why does Luke have to die?

I just don't see how the greater story is serviced by killing off major characters systematically movie by movie.

They're not really major characters anymore, their job is pass the torch to new generation and simplest way of doing that is to die.

Why did Luke have to die?

Simple for the same reason as Obi Wan, Dumbledore etc. In order to allow the new heroes to mature. ("We are what they grow beyond") Old and wise mentors have a really high death rate because of this and the whole while Luke is alive why Rey and not him?

You need to lose old characters sometimes to make room in your story. This was one of the many failings of GOT in the end. They stopped losing characters and thus had way too many to use satisfyingly.

 Scrabb wrote:

The force projection death in TLJ was foreshadowed. So was Luke having an X wing that could take him off planet if he changed his mind. Wouldn't have been much of a fakeout if they'd left Luke stranded with no ship.

Luke's X-Wing is busted and missing a wing. It's actually the door to his shed.

 Earth127 wrote:
Why did Luke have to die?

Simple for the same reason as Obi Wan, Dumbledore etc. In order to allow the new heroes to mature. ("We are what they grow beyond") Old and wise mentors have a really high death rate because of this and the whole while Luke is alive why Rey and not him?

You need to lose old characters sometimes to make room in your story. This was one of the many failings of GOT in the end. They stopped losing characters and thus had way too many to use satisfyingly.

That would be fine if they hadn't marketed TFA TLJ as the continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker- which is what Starwars fans wanted. Instead they asked us to care about someone else, and gave us no reason to do so, had Luke absent and inactive and Han divorced and killed.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Why did Luke have to die?

Simple for the same reason as Obi Wan, Dumbledore etc. In order to allow the new heroes to mature. ("We are what they grow beyond") Old and wise mentors have a really high death rate because of this and the whole while Luke is alive why Rey and not him?

You need to lose old characters sometimes to make room in your story. This was one of the many failings of GOT in the end. They stopped losing characters and thus had way too many to use satisfyingly.

That would be fine if they hadn't marketed TFA TLJ as the continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker[u]- which is what Starwars fans wanted. Instead they asked us to care about someone else, and gave us no reason to do so, had Luke absent and inactive and Han divorced and killed.

I don't remember anyone using those words. 'Continuation of the Skywalker saga' and stuff like that, sure. So it's more like you decided what the story should be and then being disappointed when it wasn't.

 Earth127 wrote:
Why did Luke have to die?

Simple for the same reason as Obi Wan, Dumbledore etc. In order to allow the new heroes to mature. ("We are what they grow beyond") Old and wise mentors have a really high death rate because of this and the whole while Luke is alive why Rey and not him?

You need to lose old characters sometimes to make room in your story. This was one of the many failings of GOT in the end. They stopped losing characters and thus had way too many to use satisfyingly.

Or just don't bring them up in the first place. We didn't need the new Star Wars series to include any of the old heroes (except Chewbacca because he's cool). But this is Star Wars II - The Bad Ripoff so of course we did.

 Earth127 wrote:
Why did Luke have to die?

Simple for the same reason as Obi Wan, Dumbledore etc. In order to allow the new heroes to mature. ("We are what they grow beyond") Old and wise mentors have a really high death rate because of this and the whole while Luke is alive why Rey and not him?

You need to lose old characters sometimes to make room in your story. This was one of the many failings of GOT in the end. They stopped losing characters and thus had way too many to use satisfyingly.

That.....makes sense, actually. I can live with that.

HOWEVER! I still think we needed more time with Luke so that the mentor relationship with Rey could develop and thus be more impactful for Rey. Like, have Luke actually save them on Crate use the projection, but NOT die because of it in TLJ. Fast Forward to RoS and Luke (STILL ALIVE) has been training Rey with the help of Obi-wan, Yoda and Anakin's ghosts.
Have Rey be more proficient because of this training, but not quite where she needs to be.
Stuff goes down very early in the movie and Luke THEN has to sacrifice himself so that Rey can be saved and have to mature.

It just shifts his death to a different place, but makes it feel like less of a betrayal of the RotJ ending.

 Frazzled wrote:
Or just don't bring them up in the first place. We didn't need the new Star Wars series to include any of the old heroes (except Chewbacca because he's cool). But this is Star Wars II - The Bad Ripoff so of course we did.

I disagree. At the very least we needed Luke and at least 1 next generation Skywalker (Ben in this case). If you do not include any Skywalkers, you can't name them EP 7,8,or 9 and that is the continuation of 1-6 which revolve around Anakin & Luke

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Nah. One of the best things about the death we got is that Luke never really gets beat. Denying Kylo any real sense of victory is one of the most satisfying things about it and stalling a movie for a "proper" death would have given him an unearned win. Also, while this is a bit of mixing the actor and the role, Luke going out on a massive trolling seems like a very Mark Hamill way to go.

 LunarSol wrote:
Nah. One of the best things about the death we got is that Luke never really gets beat. Denying Kylo any real sense of victory is one of the most satisfying things about it and stalling a movie for a "proper" death would have given him an unearned win. Also, while this is a bit of mixing the actor and the role, Luke going out on a massive trolling seems like a very Mark Hamill way to go.

That is also fair. You guys are starting to make me actually like his death in TLJ. How dare you!

What I won't like is if Luke, Obi-wan, Yoda AND Anakin force ghost council isn't at least cameo'd. We hear Luke's voice in the RoS trailer, but we heard it in TFA trailer too and he basically wasn't in that movie. If JJ is staying true to his claim that RoS will tie the saga together, we need all 4 of those Jedi Ghosts to be part of the story

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 LunarSol wrote:
Nah. One of the best things about the death we got is that Luke never really gets beat. Denying Kylo any real sense of victory is one of the most satisfying things about it and stalling a movie for a "proper" death would have given him an unearned win. Also, while this is a bit of mixing the actor and the role, Luke going out on a massive trolling seems like a very Mark Hamill way to go.

Agreed, and 'see you around, kid' is a fantastic choice.