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Plasma overheat doing 1 mortal would also resolve the stupidity of tanks with a plasma cannons no one can OC and FW getting around it by creating 10 different special guns whose sole special rule is overheating for 1 mortal.
Hellblasters don’t compare very well damage wise unless you are assuming both rapid fire and overcharge, if you can do that, sure they are excellent. But that seems more like relying on your opponent messing up than the unit being generally good.
Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense.
In a meta of rampant invulns and multiple to hit debuffs, utilizing plasma as your primary armament is a death sentence.
I don't disagree that -1 to hits are really aggravating with plasma. It should really only cause 1 mortal wound on an unmodified roll of a 1. I betcha if they made that rule marines in general would be doing a lot better.
Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense.
In a meta of rampant invulns and multiple to hit debuffs, utilizing plasma as your primary armament is a death sentence.
This is absolutely my experience. I think hellblasters are one of the worst marine units actually.
It's true. I don't use them. It's mostly because they die easy in my opponents shooting phase though. At least DA can mitigate that with a 4++ save.
They don't die any easier than the rest of the Primaris line outside of Aggressors and Inceptors, why would them being fragile be a consideration?
I don't use them because a -1 to hit would be a nice chance of pace, I'm usually looking at -2 or -3.
That is gross dude. Why do you play marines against eldar? It's like auto lose.
Per point they are very fragile compared to intercessors.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bort wrote: Plasma overheat doing 1 mortal would also resolve the stupidity of tanks with a plasma cannons no one can OC and FW getting around it by creating 10 different special guns whose sole special rule is overheating for 1 mortal.
Hellblasters don’t compare very well damage wise unless you are assuming both rapid fire and overcharge, if you can do that, sure they are excellent. But that seems more like relying on your opponent messing up than the unit being generally good.
The idea is the 4++ helps you get into rapid fire range.
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Martel732 wrote: Doesnt help vs -1 and -2 ap dam 2. Butcher cannons.
You are getting a better save than he is. He doesn't have any -1 to hits. Do DA have the primaris ancient?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 18:40:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: It is trivial to lay waste to hellblasters with suppressors, for example.
4++ works on iks, not t4 as much.
No argument here. Except helblasters are winning this matchup easily against suppressors. Unless they are out of range. Supressors in general are a better unit that hellblasters. If you could include more than 9 of them in an army. They would be great to spam around azreal to I think.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Except helblasters are winning this matchup easily against suppressors.
Not even close. They are points identical, but one has two times the movement, the capacity to give themselves a -1 to be hit while only sacrificing two shots, the capacity to fly, innately deep strike, can shut down Overwatch, full damage out to maximum range, a longer range, and doesnt kill itself to fire its weapon.
Literally the only thing that Hellblasters have going for them is the capacity to be taken in larger pods.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 19:08:37
Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense.
In a meta of rampant invulns and multiple to hit debuffs, utilizing plasma as your primary armament is a death sentence.
I don't disagree that -1 to hits are really aggravating with plasma. It should really only cause 1 mortal wound on an unmodified roll of a 1. I betcha if they made that rule marines in general would be doing a lot better.
Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense.
In a meta of rampant invulns and multiple to hit debuffs, utilizing plasma as your primary armament is a death sentence.
I don't disagree that -1 to hits are really aggravating with plasma. It should really only cause 1 mortal wound on an unmodified roll of a 1. I betcha if they made that rule marines in general would be doing a lot better.
Find it hard to believe hell blasters doesn't work. They are one of the highest damage output units in the game with their weakness being defense.
In a meta of rampant invulns and multiple to hit debuffs, utilizing plasma as your primary armament is a death sentence.
This is absolutely my experience. I think hellblasters are one of the worst marine units actually.
It's true. I don't use them. It's mostly because they die easy in my opponents shooting phase though. At least DA can mitigate that with a 4++ save.
They don't die any easier than the rest of the Primaris line outside of Aggressors and Inceptors, why would them being fragile be a consideration?
I don't use them because a -1 to hit would be a nice chance of pace, I'm usually looking at -2 or -3.
That is gross dude. Why do you play marines against eldar? It's like auto lose.
Per point they are very fragile compared to intercessors.
I play Marines because it's what I own. Usually they're suffering the same -2 once the Reapers are dead, they don't like it either.
Sure Hellblasters are fragile per point compared to Intercessors, the same can be said of Devs and Tacs. Do you not play Devs?
No - I typically don't. Out of trial and error the only units that make the cut for me regularly are.
Intercessors
Primaris ancient
Relic levithan
Redemptor dread
Assorted HQ's based (usually special characters)
Eliminators
Venerable dreads with lascannons and rockets/auto cannons (dont have any contemptor mortis)
In larger games Plasma interceptors
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 19:28:46
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: Suppressors are money. They have saved me so many times.
I like them but hard to fit into my lists. Can't drop eliminators for them or I auto lose to tau. Relic levi fills their roll just fine and does a lot more damage for his cost while also not being made of glass.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Lemondish wrote: I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that you need to rely on your opponent messing up unless you're also assuming that you're not very good.
I’m not super good, but come on, if plasma inceptors are too easily screened out of 18” to be considered viable, that same opponent can easily keep prime targets 21” away from the hellblasters already on the table. Or just kill them.
bort wrote: Plasma overheat doing 1 mortal would also resolve the stupidity of tanks with a plasma cannons no one can OC and FW getting around it by creating 10 different special guns whose sole special rule is overheating for 1 mortal.
You may want to check the rules, because I don't think there exists any plasma weapon that will kill a tank from OC.
The only kind of devs I play are the SW ones because they can deepstrike (outflank), take a storm shield/terminator, have built in re-roll 1's to hit, a strat to ignore all negative mods to hit and can re-roll all failed wounds for 1 cp.
Still costs 3 cp, come with a troop tax that I don't want to pay and die the turn after they land in any game that's close. Good news is they reliably delete their points +, bad news is they are expensive, slow, fragile, can't come in until t2 and take a lot of CP to work.
Marines having negs to hit after they move means you either start your devs in LOS (they die if you don't go first) or you try to move them from out of LOS (praying your enemy doesn't have non-LOS weapons, planes/flying tanks[ffs] that will get the angle, tall and mobile knights that can get LOS to pretty much everything on a board that isn't enclosed or movement shenanigans like da jump or warptime) and suffer the neg to hit and then they die the next turn.
Not every matchup, but enough of the in meta ones that once you win your first game you are looking at 50/50 chance of seeing something that will kill marines outside of transports (and the transports they are in) at a depressingly fast rate. The only way I can keep things alive is to deep strike them (DW/SW/BA) or put them in magic boxes (fully enclosed terrain and that falls apart against wyverns ignoring cover, firing twice getting ap -1 on 6s).
Notice that most of the good performing marine lists have as few marine bodies in them as possible. Marines die too fast, are too slow, have poor delivery options, carry over-costed weapons and when they get something that isn't complete garbage GW nerfs it faster than you can paint it.
Once you get past the mid-tables at a tournament you realize just how bad our best is compared to other factions (going 3-0 day one makes for a "fun" day two in my experience...)
Back on topic, it looks like it was an intentional nerf (hasn't be walked back yet). It seems like it could be related to marine vehicles getting CT but that seems to be more wishful thinking than anything else. It definitely wasn't outside of the existing power band for existing vehicles (tank commanders, knights, eldar flyers, custodes, ravagers, doomsday arks, tau stuff, chaos FW dreads) so I'm not sure why it was nerfed but I doubt GW is going to come out and tell us.
bort wrote: Plasma overheat doing 1 mortal would also resolve the stupidity of tanks with a plasma cannons no one can OC and FW getting around it by creating 10 different special guns whose sole special rule is overheating for 1 mortal.
You may want to check the rules, because I don't think there exists any plasma weapon that will kill a tank from OC.
Off the top of my head. Rhinos do. Primaris rhino. Landraider excelsior. Razorback with lasplas (I think this is still index allowed).
Lemondish wrote: I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that you need to rely on your opponent messing up unless you're also assuming that you're not very good.
I’m not super good, but come on, if plasma inceptors are too easily screened out of 18” to be considered viable, that same opponent can easily keep prime targets 21” away from the hellblasters already on the table. Or just kill them.
You can't really screen an 18" shooting unit on turn 2. That is not managable. That is why I use plasma interceptors over hell blasters. I don't have the option for 4++ hellbaslters though. I would take that option if it were available.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 20:00:50
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
bort wrote: There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bort wrote: There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.
The macro plasma only does 1 MW on a 1. So I think it's on par with tanks designed centuries ago
bort wrote: There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.
The macro plasma only does 1 MW on a 1. So I think it's on par with tanks designed centuries ago
Rules wise no - cause a lemon commander can reroll it's own 1's. Executioner can't.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
bort wrote: There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.
The macro plasma only does 1 MW on a 1. So I think it's on par with tanks designed centuries ago
Rules wise no - cause a lemon commander can reroll it's own 1's. Executioner can't.
Martel732 wrote: Devs have more range and dont kill themselves. Hellblasters are pure ass the way 8th ed is played.
Plasma is unfortunately the best weapon to give dev squads too. 25 point LC? 22 point rocket or MM at 22? 28 point gravcannon? or 16 point plasma cannon? You have only one choice here.
bort wrote: There’s also 2(?) AM tanks that can take plasma, though 1 again has its own special rule to not insta die. And Chaos did for the exploit of killing their own Rhinos to charge out of until that loophole was FAQed shut.
Yeah pretty funny huh? A POS lemonruss has plasma vents but the brand new Repulsor executioner doesn't? Whilst being twice the size and much more advanced. Stuff like this I just can't reconcile while considering the rules team is not just blatantly not out to make marines suck compared to Astra.
The macro plasma only does 1 MW on a 1. So I think it's on par with tanks designed centuries ago
Rules wise no - cause a lemon commander can reroll it's own 1's. Executioner can't.
Guess we gotta wait for Primaris Sgt chronus!
Yeah I bet you forgot he existed lol
Nah I put him in a stalker all the time - the ultimate eldar killer. Hits on 2's even vs aloitoc spears and still hits ground on 3+. I can't wait for priamris chronus! 400 point repulsor executioner is my kind of bag
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/01 22:34:17
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I'm not gonna lie...I've never thought about him in a Stalker like that. That's not a bad setup to be honest. I've done the Auto-Las Pred before and wasn't terribly happy and the Whirlwind, ending up even less happy.
A Stalker is cheap and fulfills a purpose. I'm gonna have to think on that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
fraser1191 wrote: Wow, yeah I never thought of chronus in a stalker either. Well I guess I'll chew up my DE friend next game
eat venoms for breakfast.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not gonna lie...I've never thought about him in a Stalker like that. That's not a bad setup to be honest. I've done the Auto-Las Pred before and wasn't terribly happy and the Whirlwind, ending up even less happy.
A Stalker is cheap and fulfills a purpose. I'm gonna have to think on that.
Hes okay in a pred. But costs a lot. Like you said stalkers are cheap. It's much tougher and he does really good against fly. Like most things he is too expensive but it does fill an hq requirement for cheap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/02 01:51:40
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
fraser1191 wrote: Wow, yeah I never thought of chronus in a stalker either. Well I guess I'll chew up my DE friend next game
eat venoms for breakfast.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm not gonna lie...I've never thought about him in a Stalker like that. That's not a bad setup to be honest. I've done the Auto-Las Pred before and wasn't terribly happy and the Whirlwind, ending up even less happy.
A Stalker is cheap and fulfills a purpose. I'm gonna have to think on that.
Hes okay in a pred. But costs a lot. Like you said stalkers are cheap. It's much tougher and he does really good against fly. Like most things he is too expensive but it does fill an hq requirement for cheap.
Being able to get a cheap Spearhead of him + 3 TFCs sounds tasty to me. Wouldn't know how to fit it in though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
