Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BrianDavion wrote:
ohh so your master plan is instead of buying one codex that contains the rules I need for the chapter I want to play, I have to buy two. seriously your proposeal is to soak the "filthy casuals" for more money, so the die hards can save money? yeah that makes busniess sense! ohh wait it doesn't!

What I would support is something like what Kings of War has done, where they released two army books. One is just the rules, the other has both rules, modeling content, and fluff. The 2nd was (at the time) about 60% more expensive.

But if the choice was one codex with everything for a specific army, or one rule book and one fluff book per army, I'd choose the former choice.

NOTE FOR READERS: This is the first time in this discussion that I've listed my personal preferences.

 Lance845 wrote:


Stop claiming the internet thing. I never said everybody did. You are arguing a point never made.

It does invalidate your claim.

I never said everybody had the internet. I just said they could go on the internet they don't have for a painting guide. You lose, I win, because I said so.

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?

Didn't you just tell someone who claims to be motivated by a NEED for the fluff and pictures they don't NEED to fluff and pictures? So you are making claims about what motivates most people?

Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.

It's more than 200 pages. It's still 224 pages. No matter how many times you "accidentally" get something wrong, this won't make it correct. It'll be roughtly 978 pages. I already did the estimation and math for you.

Yeah, he apparently knows more about us than we do. I guess his 'over the internet mind-reading device' is broken.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

You mean my posts acknowledged that people with different tastes and wants purchase codexes, which are currently designed to appeal to as many of them as possible, while your posts are trying to force your own personal view on it?

Yeah, totally a mistake on my part. How dare I consider people who aren't me.

The fact that you don't recognize the logic behind having a product that is as inclusive as possible is worrisome. I'm not sure you're properly equipped to be having this discussion. Until you actually start figuring out what a real logical argument is, consider your posts in this thread to be ignored for their lack of value.

Nice try though Cupcake.

This discussion starts and ends with why the same datasheets are reprinted over and over again in different publications and the merits or flaws of merging them into a single codex.

The current codex format is flawed. And your arguments for their current format is "But I like it, and I think a majority of other people also like it so I am going to state that everyone who buys GW likes it as though it's a fact". I am all for products that support everyone's favorite aspects of the hobby. I am not for selling people 4 books when you could sell them 1.

your claim that the codex system as it stands is "flawed" however is your opinion being presented as fact. I mean at what point does something become a unique eneugh army to merit it's own distinct codex, as opposed to being mixed in with someone elses?

When it doesn't use 80% of the same datasheets. GSC and Nids share 1 datasheet. Genestealers. Distinct armies. DA and Ultramarines? Same army.

Is Deathguard distinct eneugh from Chaos Space Marines? surly they COULD be folded into codex CSM (until this edition they where) of course now that they are distinct they very much have their own character. (I'm using this as a pure example BTW, GW did a much better job of making Death Guard feel like a independant codex was warrented) why not fold sisters of Battle into codex Space Marines? toss in a page of rules reducing their str and toughness, give them a invul save and faith abilities, and maybe 1 or two distinct units. surely thats just a page or two of unqiue rules right? why do we need a seperate codex for them?

Because they actually have different units and share almost nothing with standard codex CSM.

and why not just fold Space Marines into the guard codex, as "codex Imperium" give everyone access to the tanks, and just slide in tac, devestator and assault marines!

Because they don't share all those units.

I apologize for the reduco absurdium. but the point I'm getting at here is you can make all sorts of arguments for consoladation, and right now, it ain't going to happen because GW is expanding codex choice. yes you might view having to buy another book as a down side, (for the record I doubt GW anticipates their regular customers buying more then a half dozen codices at most. Most people'll buy the proper flavor of space marine codex for them and thats that) but I doubt Games Workshop sees it that way. They like money!

I agree with this assessment and it's sort of my point. The codexes isn't really where GW makes their money. It's the models. Most people probably buy 1 codex. Maybe 2. And with the rate at which the information in them is invalidated anyway it's mostly pointless to buy them at all.

as for the focus on people who like GW;'s products liking fluff and art. I'd be willing to bet thats truer then it isn't. warhammer 40k is a visual medium with a lot of story people like that, several Horus Heresy books where on the NYT best seller list. I suspect more people are intreasted in 40k for the fluff then play the game. so yeah I think it's safe to assume most 40k fans like that stuff.

I think it's fair to assume SOME people exclusively like the fluff. Especially because I have met many who think the game is just flat out bad. I have also met many who don't give a damn about the fluff. They want to win games and buy exactly what they need to do that. And then I have met many who sit in the middle and want to play some good games and enjoy the fluff for it's absurdity. People who buy GW products exist on a spectrum. They are not all one thing. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what everyone thinks.

You're going to have to give us some hard numbers for that last bit.

"I think it's fair to assume SOME people exclusively like the fluff. Especially because I have met many who think the game is just flat out bad. I have also met many who don't give a damn about the fluff. They want to win games and buy exactly what they need to do that. And then I have met many who sit in the middle and want to play some good games and enjoy the fluff for it's absurdity. People who buy GW products exist on a spectrum. They are not all one thing. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what everyone thinks. "

How exactly does the ratios break down, I'll need all the metrics.

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?

Didn't you just tell someone who claims to be motivated by a NEED for the fluff and pictures they don't NEED to fluff and pictures? So you are making claims about what motivates most people?

Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.

It's more than 200 pages. It's still 224 pages. No matter how many times you "accidentally" get something wrong, this won't make it correct. It'll be roughtly 978 pages. I already did the estimation and math for you.

Need and like are 2 different things. You are quoting me from several pages ago out of context.

Just like you've been doing to everyone else!

Except that what you're quoted as saying isn't out of context. It's actually to the point of the arguments you've been making.

 Mmmpi wrote:


My estimate is 30 pages with no model pictures, art, or fluff.

Its easy enough to figure out. The outer book is organized into several inner books. You just look for the last page before the datasheets start. In Codex DA that's page 156. 156 pages of fluff and art. Assume something similar for the BA and SW. 286 for Codex SM. Add 224 pages for the Index Imperium 1. Index Imperium 1 contains more armies, but no warlord traits, relics, etc - I'd bet at (checking my DA book again - 3 pages for Stratagems, 2 pages for Relics, 1 page for Warlord Traits, 1 page for psychic disciplines, and 1 page for Tactical Objectives - 8 pages x 3 = 24 pages it's pretty close to the number of pages taken in the Index for the Corvus Blackstar, and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?

Didn't you just tell someone who claims to be motivated by a NEED for the fluff and pictures they don't NEED to fluff and pictures? So you are making claims about what motivates most people?

Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.

It's more than 200 pages. It's still 224 pages. No matter how many times you "accidentally" get something wrong, this won't make it correct. It'll be roughtly 978 pages. I already did the estimation and math for you.

Need and like are 2 different things. You are quoting me from several pages ago out of context.

I quoted EXACTLY what you said, so it isn't "out of context". You are telling people what they do or don't NEED - which is pretty much everyone's primary MOTIVATION. And now you're trying to play semantics about NEED vs WANT in a hobby/luxury item. And it's STILL 224 pages DESPITE you claiming it's less than 200.

Yeah that's true, but I was on my phone at the time.

Breton wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


My estimate is 30 pages with no model pictures, art, or fluff.

Its easy enough to figure out. The outer book is organized into several inner books. You just look for the last page before the datasheets start. In Codex DA that's page 156. 156 pages of fluff and art. Assume something similar for the BA and SW. 286 for Codex SM. Add 224 pages for the Index Imperium 1. Index Imperium 1 contains more armies, but no warlord traits, relics, etc - I'd bet at (checking my DA book again - 3 pages for Stratagems, 2 pages for Relics, 1 page for Warlord Traits, 1 page for psychic disciplines, and 1 page for Tactical Objectives - 8 pages x 3 = 24 pages it's pretty close to the number of pages taken in the Index for the Corvus Blackstar, and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


No, YOU don't NEED it either. You might LIKE it. But you don't NEED it. I don't have anything to show. But then, I am not making claims about what motivates MOST people. Or what MANY stores do or don't do. I can speak to the experiences I have had. Of the 5 local stores that sell GW product 1 has had SOME codexes open. Not all. Again, did you spend 50.00 on your codex without knowing about the army first?

Didn't you just tell someone who claims to be motivated by a NEED for the fluff and pictures they don't NEED to fluff and pictures? So you are making claims about what motivates most people?

Hey guy, EVERY unique unit for the BA is in the index. The index is less than 200 pages with MORE armies then I am saying go in the SM dex. ALL the unique datasheets fit in there nice and snug.

It's more than 200 pages. It's still 224 pages. No matter how many times you "accidentally" get something wrong, this won't make it correct. It'll be roughtly 978 pages. I already did the estimation and math for you.

Need and like are 2 different things. You are quoting me from several pages ago out of context.

I quoted EXACTLY what you said, so it isn't "out of context". You are telling people what they do or don't NEED - which is pretty much everyone's primary MOTIVATION. And now you're trying to play semantics about NEED vs WANT in a hobby/luxury item. And it's STILL 224 pages DESPITE you claiming it's less than 200.

No, it is VERY out of context. He said he NEEDED the fluff inside of the codex. That he NEEDED the painting guides. As though without those things he would die. Quoting me disputing the vernacular he used as though I was making a point besides that is taking it out of context. Again, why are you quoting snippets of conversation from 2 pages ago?

Why were you before you were specifically asked to?

 Lance845 wrote:


When it doesn't use 80% of the same datasheets. GSC and Nids share 1 datasheet. Genestealers. Distinct armies. DA and Ultramarines? Same army.

GSC has the Tyranids Keyword. Same Army.

Is Deathguard distinct eneugh from Chaos Space Marines? surly they COULD be folded into codex CSM (until this edition they where) of course now that they are distinct they very much have their own character. (I'm using this as a pure example BTW, GW did a much better job of making Death Guard feel like a independant codex was warrented) why not fold sisters of Battle into codex Space Marines? toss in a page of rules reducing their str and toughness, give them a invul save and faith abilities, and maybe 1 or two distinct units. surely thats just a page or two of unqiue rules right? why do we need a seperate codex for them?

Because they actually have different units and share almost nothing with standard codex CSM.

Yeah, we've plumbed the depths of his arguments a few pages back.

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll 'logically whine about how quoting his posts is somehow out of context.

 Lance845 wrote:


No, it is VERY out of context. He said he NEEDED the fluff inside of the codex. That he NEEDED the painting guides. As though without those things he would die. Quoting me disputing the vernacular he used as though I was making a point besides that is taking it out of context. Again, why are you quoting snippets of conversation from 2 pages ago?

You're stripping the context of "TO ENJOY THE GAME THE WAY I WANT TO" out of his NEED. You're the one trying to remove context to play Semantics- He doesn't NEED to get into the hobby at all. But anyone intellectually honest enough would know that the context of needing within the CONTEXT of enjoying the hobby is part of how he was using that NEED. And it's 224 pages.

Getting far too many alerts over this thread so its orange text time. Please remember that being polite is mandatory, if you cannot reply politely then do not reply at all. I would normally say stay on topic as well but I am actually struggling to work out what the topic is here.

How many of the wargear options usable by deathguard units are shared with the CSM equivalents? Not in what combinations they can be taken. Just the profiles. Is the standard CSM bolter the same one used by the stock DG troops? Are the DG plague scythes usable by CSM? How about vehicles? Deamon engines? How about Tsons? Their bolters are just the normal guys for CSM right? Totally the same and not at all a unique wargear list.

Right. Totally interchangeable.

Just like the specialty units in the loyalist codexes are totally interchangeable.

They aren't. Many have specialty weapons or gear.

How many marine units have access to Angelius bolters?

Terminators with maces and special shield rules?

Death masks?

Inferno pistols?

On the other side,

There's no reason you can't just use a stratagem for inferno bolters, they don't need to be special right? Let's make all the Death guard stuff T4, bring them in line with the other marine stuff.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Just like the specialty units in the loyalist codexes are totally interchangeable.

Oh wait.

They are. A power sword is a power sword. The bolter is a bolter. A storm bolters a storm bolter. Outside of relics how many unique wargear options exist for DA or BA? SW at least have their ice weapons. Or had in 7th. They might just be power weapons by a different name in 8th. Il check in with my local SW player tomorrow to confirm. The DA and BA are not running around with any wargear SM don't just have already. Again, same army. Literally the same datasheets reprinted 4 times.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Just like the specialty units in the loyalist codexes are totally interchangeable.

Oh wait.

They are. A power sword is a power sword. The bolter is a bolter. A storm bolters a storm bolter. Outside of relics how many unique wargear options exist for DA or BA? SW at least have their ice weapons. Or had in 7th. They might just be power weapons by a different name in 8th. Il check in with my local SW player tomorrow to confirm. The DA and BA are not running around with any wargear SM don't just have already. Again, same army. Literally the same datasheets reprinted 4 times.

An angeles bolter is a bolter?

An encarmine sword, or frost axe is a basic power weapon?

Which generic SM unit uses death masks?

All three non-codex chapters have wargear that isn't in other codexes.

Just like death guard get plasma guns.

So no, literally not the same army four times over.

No no. You are having trouble keeping up. NONE of the wargear for DG or Tsons matches up for CSM. The basic CSM troop is not carrying the same gun as the DG or the TSons.

Tac marines are carrying the same bolter as the BA DA and SW.

The Tac Marines for BA don't have death masks. I never said DA should loose their unique units. I said the vast majority of their units are exactly the same and belong in the same dex because of it.

I don't want crusader squads to get squatted and I don't want most of the unique units for BA DA and SW to get squatted either (those that are actually distinct). Those few units don't justify an entire codex. Of the 3 SW have the strongest case for their own dex. But DA and BA don't have a case at all.

 Lance845 wrote:
No no. You are having trouble keeping up. NONE of the wargear for DG or Tsons matches up for CSM. The basic CSM troop is not carrying the same gun as the DG or the TSons.

Tac marines are carrying the same bolter as the BA DA and SW.

The Tac Marines for BA don't have death masks. I never said DA should loose their unique units. I said the vast majority of their units are exactly the same and belong in the same dex because of it.

I don't want crusader squads to get squatted and I don't want most of the unique units for BA DA and SW to get squatted either (those that are actually distinct). Those few units don't justify an entire codex. Of the 3 SW have the strongest case for their own dex. But DA and BA don't have a case at all.

Death guard are equipped with bolters, plasma, melta, flamers, and combi-bolters.

Just like Tac Marines...

I never said BA tac marines did. I did say some of their specialty units did.

Crusader squads don't justify a codex. The nearly 10 pages of specialty/unique units and characters, and five pages of rules, psychic power schools, and stratagems (these numbers are each, not total), plus 20-70 pages of background fluff do justify separate books.

At least a third of each of the non-codex chapters are unique, and they don't all use the whole repertoire of core units. DA don't use most of the codex fliers for example.

So right now, we have you cherry picking what is distinct, while ignoring it in other armies.

for the record on the subject of crusader squads, I'd honestly like to see black templars be spun of out to their own codex again.

I just counted from the Blood Angels codex.

24% of the codex's units are unique to that book. So while not a third, are still 10 pages of material, assuming that there's 2 data sheets per page.

And that's just data sheets. That's not counting wargear lists, special rules, fluff, model pictures, and so forth.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Just like the specialty units in the loyalist codexes are totally interchangeable.

Oh wait.

They are. A power sword is a power sword. The bolter is a bolter. A storm bolters a storm bolter. Outside of relics how many unique wargear options exist for DA or BA? SW at least have their ice weapons. Or had in 7th. They might just be power weapons by a different name in 8th. Il check in with my local SW player tomorrow to confirm. The DA and BA are not running around with any wargear SM don't just have already. Again, same army. Literally the same datasheets reprinted 4 times.

So for loyalist marines an Angelus bolter is just a bolter, but for Chaos SM, an inferno Bolter isn't just a bolter. You're on fire with this intellectual honesty thing.

I'm also looking forward to taking those Flails of Unforgiven and Maces of Absolution on my Imperial Fist Terminators backing up Lysander. Possibly more than my Stormraven dropping Stasis Bombs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
No no. You are having trouble keeping up.

The stuff I say is different IS DIFFERENT because I say so. Try and keep up.

NONE of the wargear for DG or Tsons matches up for CSM. The basic CSM troop is not carrying the same gun as the DG or the TSons.

Um, I just looked and you should probably tell Battlescribe They have Deathguard Plaguemarines carring the common bolter. How many times are you going to make a ridiculously wrong claim without looking it up first? I realize you can't LINK a datasheet, but you can google one. Oh well, it's your credibility not mine. If you want to toss it away by lying all the time, that's your business.

Tac marines are carrying the same bolter as the BA DA and SW.

And apparently the same as the Deathguard Plaguemarines. And the Imperium Index is 224 pages.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
for the record on the subject of crusader squads, I'd honestly like to see black templars be spun of out to their own codex again.

I'm Meh on that. I wouldn't mind, but it's not high on my priority list. If they did, I'd prefer it if they took Imperial Fists, and Crimson Fists with them. Put all the Sons of Dorn in the same book, and let them go to town expanding all three. Especially for as hard as close combat is sucking right now.

A Sons of Dorn book would be cool, or even a Crusade chapter book, which had BT, and several options for crusade style and fleet style chapters.

 Mmmpi wrote:
A Sons of Dorn book would be cool, or even a Crusade chapter book, which had BT, and several options for crusade style and fleet style chapters.

I mentioned a Sons of Dorn codex because if they're going to bring back more loyalist primarchs - and I think they will - they should add a <Legion> keyword to marines that works like the <Chapter> keyword, and write the Primarch reroll rule to work off the Legion keyword. Successor Chapters are just as likely to perk up and perform better if Daddy is watching, whoever Daddy is.

Breton wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
A Sons of Dorn book would be cool, or even a Crusade chapter book, which had BT, and several options for crusade style and fleet style chapters.

I mentioned a Sons of Dorn codex because if they're going to bring back more loyalist primarchs - and I think they will - they should add a <Legion> keyword to marines that works like the <Chapter> keyword, and write the Primarch reroll rule to work off the Legion keyword. Successor Chapters are just as likely to perk up and perform better if Daddy is watching, whoever Daddy is.

What if their Primarch is one of the traitors?

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
A Sons of Dorn book would be cool, or even a Crusade chapter book, which had BT, and several options for crusade style and fleet style chapters.

I mentioned a Sons of Dorn codex because if they're going to bring back more loyalist primarchs - and I think they will - they should add a <Legion> keyword to marines that works like the <Chapter> keyword, and write the Primarch reroll rule to work off the Legion keyword. Successor Chapters are just as likely to perk up and perform better if Daddy is watching, whoever Daddy is.

What if their Primarch is one of the traitors?

Dorn isn't. We already know who are and aren't. I expect to see at least 5 of each. I'm not sure Dorn is one of the ones that will come back, but between IF/CF/BT I wouldn't be surprised.

problem with that is there are a lot of chapters that have no idea who their primarch is. Minotaurs, blood ravens, red scorpions etc

There are a lot of Chapters who were custom made. They'll either get to pick the Legion keyword they want, have one assigned so we do know, or they'll be locked out of picking one that matters depending on who's in control of their fluff and where they want to go with it.