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As the title suggests, Games Workshops loves the use of analogies and would suggest that Terra and most of the surrounding planets will fall to Chaos. In real life, the vikings, viewed as pagan savages, invaded Rome and pillaged it. Multiple times in fact. The result was that there was a break in the Roman Empire, with one becoming the Eastern Roman Empire, aka, the Byzantine Empire, which is what Roboute Guilliman, Lion El'Jonson, and Sanguinius were preparing for as the Imperium Secundus. If we are to look at real life events and place them in the realm of 40k, it would seem that Chaos (aka the vikings) will reach the heart of the Imperium and crush it. Thoughts?

In short?

No.

Segmentum Solar could take a right kicking. But even with half of the Space Marine Legions, and oodles of other support, Horus still couldn't take Terra - and at that time, the Homeworld had only had a decade or so of notice to beef up it's security.

Fast forward Ten Thousand Years? Layers upon layers of defence. And the Chaos Legions are all more than a bit insane, with some being basically uncontrollable.

Who knows what other secrets lie hidden? What wonder weapons exist known only to The Custodes themselves?

The forces of Chaos could reach the solar system - but I really do not fancy their chances much.

Any assault is going to be massively costly. If they blow it, Chaos could be left with nothing worth much of a damn. The Imperium? Billions upon Billions of humans, and the resources that come with it.

Provided there's no Xenos able to capitalise on the ruin, The Imperium will get back on it's feet faster than Chaos.

I don't think Vikings ever sacked Rome. The whole thing falls apart since the eastern empire is already long gone, when historically it out lasted the western one.

Youre thinking of the Goths my dude.

Think you are thinking of the Visigoths there mate (and Rome wasn't the Capital of the Western Empire at the time) but that aside no I don't think Chaos would be allowed to take or could take Terra. They may have an easier time getting there than when they were mostly confined to Eye but they still lack the strength and the Terran system is still massively fortified.

Will Terra fall?

I'm not sure... they don't have to actually go through the Sol System... they can invade through the webway and through the Golden Throne/Gate? What if the Blackships failed to come to bring psykers?
If the emperor is still alive, then would his death provoke this too... or even save humanity further? That's a bit of a tangent, but is a possible way the gate can be opened, or sealed.

Alternatively, if I was trying to destroy Terra (and not capture it) I'd probably just try and destroy the Sun. Bypass the stationary defences and you only have to deal with the space ships. Come from above or below the plane of planets and you'll never have to cross their orbits, maybe?

Animus wrote:
I don't think Vikings ever sacked Rome. The whole thing falls apart since the eastern empire is already long gone, when historically it out lasted the western one.

Sterling191 wrote:
Youre thinking of the Goths my dude.

 ingtaer wrote:
Think you are thinking of the Visigoths there mate (and Rome wasn't the Capital of the Western Empire at the time) but that aside no I don't think Chaos would be allowed to take or could take Terra. They may have an easier time getting there than when they were mostly confined to Eye but they still lack the strength and the Terran system is still massively fortified.

My mistake, I thought it was the Normans, who were originally vikings that had settled down in France and were paid by the Romans as auxiliaries, and then they essentially were treated as second class citizens and revolted against the Romans.

I could see it happening if the Old Ones got their gak together in The Warp and found a way to make the Necrons, Eldar, and Chaos come together under their control once again. But that's extremely unlikely to ever happen in this universe of 40K.

 Cake Farts wrote:
I could see it happening if the Old Ones got their gak together in The Warp and found a way to make the Necrons, Eldar, and Chaos come together under their control once again. But that's extremely unlikely to ever happen in this universe of 40K.

Especially as they're dead. And only ever controlled one of those things.

The Orks damn near took Terra. Popped right up with an Orky Death Star, complete with subspace gate with the power to vomit uncountable trillions of Boyz all over the planet- had they been looking to destroy rather than force a surrender, Terra would have fallen..

Spikeyboyz got a lot to learn.

 Skinflint Games wrote:
The Orks damn near took Terra. Popped right up with an Orky Death Star, complete with subspace gate with the power to vomit uncountable trillions of Boyz all over the planet- had they been looking to destroy rather than force a surrender, Terra would have fallen..

Spikeyboyz got a lot to learn.

Yes but that was a VERY different Terra and Imperium : at the time they were basically complacent since they believed Chaos and every other threat beaten, and therefore were completely taken by surprise when the Beast attacked. Terra in M40 is much much much more defended and prepared.

Psionara wrote:

Animus wrote:
I don't think Vikings ever sacked Rome. The whole thing falls apart since the eastern empire is already long gone, when historically it out lasted the western one.

Sterling191 wrote:
Youre thinking of the Goths my dude.

 ingtaer wrote:
Think you are thinking of the Visigoths there mate (and Rome wasn't the Capital of the Western Empire at the time) but that aside no I don't think Chaos would be allowed to take or could take Terra. They may have an easier time getting there than when they were mostly confined to Eye but they still lack the strength and the Terran system is still massively fortified.

My mistake, I thought it was the Normans, who were originally vikings that had settled down in France and were paid by the Romans as auxiliaries, and then they essentially were treated as second class citizens and revolted against the Romans.

Ummm, no. The Vikings may have sacked Rome around 860 (We know they pillaged as far down as Florence in Italy, and may have gone further, but there is no definite evidence for Rome) - but not until a good few centuries after the 'Fall' of the Roman Empire (410). The Normans weren't acquainted with the Romans at all - they only sacked Rome in 1084, long after any 'Romans' of the type you're thinking had ceased to culturally exist.. You're probably mistaking that with the 'Holy Roman Empire (Carolingian)' - where Charlemagne, a Frankish Warlord, carved out an Empire from amongst the post-Roman Kingdoms in what was Gaul, Germania and Hispania. His descendant, Charles the Fat, offered a Viking leader, Rollo, a fief in Normandy in return for ceasing raiding and policing the area from other raiders.

The actual 'Fall' of Rome is very much disputed, and in academic circles is seen as a bit of a fallacy. At the point where Rome was actually invaded by the Visigoths (410), the effective capital of the Western Empire was Ravenna, and the main crux of power was Constantinople in the East. In any case, it wasn't a fall much at all - but just a shift in power to the Byzantine Empire, who still referred to themselves as Rhomaioi (Greek for 'Roman'). Bit of a potted history for you there

As for Terra - I think the Emperor as an undead is still too central to the essence of 40k lore for GW to risk Terra falling, for now. Any attempt to raise him, kill him, or transform him would be too risky in the wake of Guilliman's revival - being seen as too cheesy or Deus et Machina (Literally ) at the moment. Perhaps at some point, but I don't think we'll see any disturbance to the Golden Throne just yet.

Yes. Empires fall; it's what they do.

Whether it'll be Chaos wiring into Terra or some other Faction, who can say? But yes, it will fall.

I don't think GW has any plans for Terra to fall. If it didn't happen at the end of Gathering Storm it won't happen any time soon. The Fall of Terra would basically spell the end of the Imperium since you would have no Emperor, no Astronomicon and no central control over the various arms of the military.

Even Guilliman could not hold the Imperium together if Terra fell.

I am not saying GW will never do it but they don't seem in a hurry to advance the timeline beyond the end of the Indomitus Crusade. My guess is they will save something like that for another big reboot in many years time.

Oh, yeah. FWIW, I agree that GW would never depict the Imperium falling, but I remain of the opinion that the fact of the Empire falling is an inevitable fact.

It's just the storyline will never advance that far.

 Psionara wrote:

Animus wrote:
I don't think Vikings ever sacked Rome. The whole thing falls apart since the eastern empire is already long gone, when historically it out lasted the western one.

Sterling191 wrote:
Youre thinking of the Goths my dude.

 ingtaer wrote:
Think you are thinking of the Visigoths there mate (and Rome wasn't the Capital of the Western Empire at the time) but that aside no I don't think Chaos would be allowed to take or could take Terra. They may have an easier time getting there than when they were mostly confined to Eye but they still lack the strength and the Terran system is still massively fortified.

My mistake, I thought it was the Normans, who were originally vikings that had settled down in France and were paid by the Romans as auxiliaries, and then they essentially were treated as second class citizens and revolted against the Romans.

........... thats just an embarassing mish mash of history.. I mean seriously,

Ideally no, since it would essentially break the setting. While I love the IOM over decaying slowly GW has given me no faith in them making big changes to the setting since 8th dropped.

All the defences are a demonic infestation away from turning on the people they are supposed to protect...

A single Custodes gone rogue. A sleeper agent. Radical inquisitor gone off the deep end.

I like 40k as an ongoing story, rather than a “setting”. Some people prefer a stagnant setting and that’s ok too.

Yes, Terra could fall. As a betting man, I’d put my dollar on NOT falling, because that leaves the crippled Imperium even more desperately clinging to past glory. Whereas a fallen Terra lets the (hypothetically) returning Loyalist Primarchs to divide the remaining Imperium as they’re able. Which would result in more localized, responsive governance, and the potential for advancement of technology and what-have-you as the old regime is no longer in place to enforce the status-quo.

It is the nature of totalitarian regimes to be inflexible, which is part of the core grimdark nature of 40k. The Imperium can’t adapt to the changing galaxy. The harder they hold on, the worse the damage they do to themselves.

So in a weird way, losing Terra may be the forced reset that saves humanity. Assuming the Emperor doesn’t ascend to full-on Sigmar and becomes a known quantity in the universe. At that point you’d maybe have a grimdark re-enactment of the civil war of ten millennia ago. Believers vs non believers. I dunno. If the fluff team wants to continue with “crushing despair” then Terra stands broken, but not defeated, clinging tooth and nail to existence, beset by powerful enemies on all sides blah-blah-blah. It would just turn the dial to 16 instead of 11.

Fallen Terra opens a lot of new directions, to diversify the Imperial factions and bring them into potential open conflicts with each other. Some cling to the old ways, others march into brave new worlds. Good way to squat the Inquisition. Not that I’m a fan of that, but seems like the way the wind is blowing.

In any case, I like that we have an advancing storyline where that could be a part of the game’s future.

Terra cannot fall,



It's highly likely the activation control is inside the box handed from Grey Knight Grand Master to the next, it'd make sense that , before sending them into the warp pocket , Malcador would hand over the control as it keeps it away from the forces of Horus. Worst case being they emerged a 1000 years later and hit the button.

I was disappointed though that the Indomitus Crusade kind of happened then ran out of steam in the space of a page of fluff as I was hoping it would be another Great Crusade. Instead we are back to the stalemate stagnation, which after 25 odd years..... is a bit grating.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:


It's highly likely the activation control is inside the box handed from Grey Knight Grand Master to the next, it'd make sense that , before sending them into the warp pocket , Malcador would hand over the control as it keeps it away from the forces of Horus. Worst case being they emerged a 1000 years later and hit the button.

Nope. It's keyed to the Golden Throne and the seal on the Imperial Webway. If that seal fails, its boom time.

We can only hope. The imperium is really stupid conceptually and as represented.

Martel732 wrote:
We can only hope. The imperium is really stupid conceptually and as represented.

yes yes we know you hate warhammer 40k

I doubt GW would make such a dramatic change to such thoroughly established lore. Terra being gone would be a massive narrative shift.

But if they did make it happen, it wouldn't be by attack from outside the Sol system (at least now solely), but from inside. I.e. Big E finally succumbing to death and with his presence on the throne now gone, the daemon horde being held back comes pouring into Terra.

-

Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Except we know that they are a fact. We know more about it than the Imperium does.

Engrenages wrote:

 Skinflint Games wrote:
The Orks damn near took Terra. Popped right up with an Orky Death Star, complete with subspace gate with the power to vomit uncountable trillions of Boyz all over the planet- had they been looking to destroy rather than force a surrender, Terra would have fallen..

Spikeyboyz got a lot to learn.

Yes but that was a VERY different Terra and Imperium : at the time they were basically complacent since they believed Chaos and every other threat beaten, and therefore were completely taken by surprise when the Beast attacked. Terra in M40 is much much much more defended and prepared.

Fair point. It could be a useful lore backstop though - WH40k X edition, Shattered Imperium box set... Surviving Marines, both regular and primaris, lead the ragged remnants of the Guard to recapture Holy Terra from the foul daemons of chaos.

Not dissimilar to Drop zone Commander, I believe?

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Why would they be a myth, there is literally an entire novel about the war in the webway and what is waiting at the gates should the wards fail. I really don't get why you bother with a setting that you fundamentally seem to dislike almost every aspect of.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Why would they be a myth, there is literally an entire novel about the war in the webway and what is waiting at the gates should the wards fail. I really don't get why you bother with a setting that you fundamentally seem to dislike almost every aspect of.

perhaps martel hasn't read the book in question

Maybe the book is a lie. Its hard for me to take anything seriously when nothing makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Why would they be a myth, there is literally an entire novel about the war in the webway and what is waiting at the gates should the wards fail. I really don't get why you bother with a setting that you fundamentally seem to dislike almost every aspect of.

I do basically hate almost all of GWs bad fanfic.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe the book is a lie. Its hard for me to take anything seriously when nothing makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming the hordes arent a myth. Without scientific principles in play, i wouldnt believe anything the imperium thinks it knows.

Why would they be a myth, there is literally an entire novel about the war in the webway and what is waiting at the gates should the wards fail. I really don't get why you bother with a setting that you fundamentally seem to dislike almost every aspect of.

I do basically hate almost all of GWs bad fanfic.

But what you DO like is trolling DakkaDakka