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Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Crimson wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:

Yes, but that doesn't mean they're the "correct" size in absolute terms, because 40K's relative scaling is wonky.

Compared to what?

Compared to basic maths?
The AT Titans are about 1:260, and at 16.06m that puts the wingspan of a Thunderbolt at about 62mm, and as I say that image there appears to show the AI model with a wingspan of about 7cm or roughly 1:230. Plenty of people are happy with "close enough" and will find these adequate, I'm glad for them, but I prefer things to be more consistent especially at GW prices.

On what you're basing these calculations? If the relative sizes of AI/AT models is the same than 40K vehicles, then that is as 'correct' as we're going to get. There literally are pilot models in 40K versions of these models, and as those pilots are same scale with each other, so are the vehicles. If there is some fluff which states the sizes of these vehicles that does not correspond with the model sizes then it is that fluff that is wrong, not the models.

I'm basing them on Forge World, so it would be odd if the fluff was wrong given it came at the same time as the model. Given how wonky scale in 40K is generally(Rhino, anybody?), I find it easier to believe the model was built larger for some reason than they just randomly decided to pull a number out of their backsides.

Sorry, this is just bonkers. The models are in correct scales, some obscure old background numbers are totally irrelevant. They're not gonna make the models in AI/AT relatively differently scaled that their 40K counterparts because some intern who was tasked with coming up some page filler for FW book failed at maths. It was even perfectly possible that at the moment of writing the writer didn't have a model at hand as they were just going into production, so they were just estimating. Oh, and according to similar FW numbers the Rhino model is correctly scaled.

Do you know that in BL books one exact same ship doubles in length between books? I'd love to see you do maths on how a BFG model for that ship should be scaled!


So if they eventually do Epic and have 8mm Marines and scale the Rhino proportionately to the 40K one, you'll say that's correctly scaled as well?

Like I say, you can not care about the scale if you like, but some do and are using the best available info to try and fix it - to me that seems perfectly inoffensive, so what's your problem?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 15:09:15


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in se
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Stockholm, Sweden

Ooh, they are quite a lot bigger than I thought! I will definitely get this - perfect to paint and play with my son.

Oguhmek paints Orks (and Necrons): 'Ere we go!
 
   
Made in ca
Phanobi






Canada,Prince Edward Island

Looks like they are the perfect scale to blend in with Titanicus, better start working on my airfield terrain!

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






From FB:

Andrew Paul Wingspans Thunderbolts are 70mm, dakkajets are 55-57mm, fighta bommerz are 78-80mm.
Lengths Tbolts are 63mm, dakkajets are 58-60, fighta bommerz are 70mm.


For what it's worth, from the old IA rulebook, a Thunderbolt is 16060mm wingspan by 14200mm length (1.13:1 wingspan:length). The 40k model is 280mm x 250; a 1.12:1 ratio, and 1:57 scale*. The old Epic resin model is 53 x 50mm, a 1.06:1 ratio and either 1:284 or 1:303 depending on if the length or wingspan is correct. The new plastic model is 70 x 63mm, a 1.11:1 ratio and 1:225 scale*.

* scaled using the length, since the "correct" measurements, the 40k model and the new model all appear to have slightly different wingspan / length ratios. The old resin Epic model is the outlier, with its wings being 3mm too small.

The old resin model is about 1/5 the size of the 40k model, the new one almost exactly 1/4, as with the Titanicus models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 15:28:26


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Yodhrin wrote:

So if they eventually do Epic and have 8mm Marines and scale the Rhino proportionately to the 40K one, you'll say that's correctly scaled as well?

Yes. And so would you if you take those obscure FW numbers as gospel.

Like I say, you can not care about the scale if you like, but some do and are using the best available info to try and fix it - to me that seems perfectly inoffensive, so what's your problem?

I don't have a problem, but you do, because you're made up one in your head, by elevating some random background nugget from out of print book above what is right in front of our eyes. It is perfectly possible that if they reprint those numbers, and they notice this disparity and care about it (big ifs, I know) that they change those numbers to match the model sizes. FWs background numbers seem usually be based on calculations on the model size. Numbers given to 40K tanks seem to match she scale of the models. If it was not the case this time, it might indeed be the case of the calculations being made before the model was completed. What absolutely will not happen, like ever, is GW or FW change their model sizes based on some ancient page filler most people have forgotten a long time ago. So do yourself a favour, calculate the 'real world' sizes for these planes based on the model size, then put that in your head canon. Ta da, the models are correctly scaled now! Certainly much easier than building your own models in a different scale which might be made obsolete any moment FW prints a new book.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I do remember the old AI thunderbolts being pretty big in comparison to Tau Barracudas.

Are we thinking that these new models are the same size as the AI old ones (not the old epic ones)?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 15:32:21


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






We might have been, but now we're not, because two posts above yours is my post with the sizes of the old resin Thunderbolts and the new plastic ones.

Somewhat annoying for those of us with the old models, but so be it. I didn't have as many IA planes as I did old titans, after all. Anyone want fifteen old beetleback Warlords?
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The old resin model is about 1/5 the size of the 40k model, the new one almost exactly 1/4, as with the Titanicus models.

Alright, thanks . Should be good news for anyone wanting a "new Epic" eventually that these match the new AT titans
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Also, from the same FB post,
You get all ordance options for every plane.
.

Whatever that means.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





FTFY.


No I meant what I said. It doesn't matter. If it matters that much to you then I would suggest prioritizing your life.
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Crimson wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:

So if they eventually do Epic and have 8mm Marines and scale the Rhino proportionately to the 40K one, you'll say that's correctly scaled as well?

Yes. And so would you if you take those obscure FW numbers as gospel.


I don't treat them as gospel. For this particular model, I treat them as the best available info, because it is - as AndrewG has demonstrated, none of the actual Thunderbolt models produced, in any scale, have been consistent, either with the given numbers or with each other, so if anything is "bonkers" it's taking that as gospel. For Rhinos, I scale them exactly the same way I scale the 40K version - based on the Marines.

Like I say, you can not care about the scale if you like, but some do and are using the best available info to try and fix it - to me that seems perfectly inoffensive, so what's your problem?

I don't have a problem,


You really really do man, because only someone with an actual problem could take the idea of trying to rationalise 40K's wonko vehicle scaling as some kind of personal affront as you seem to be.

but you do, because you're made up one in your head, by elevating some random background nugget from out of print book above what is right in front of our eyes. It is perfectly possible that if they reprint those numbers, and they notice this disparity and care about it (big ifs, I know) that they change those numbers to match the model sizes. FWs background numbers seem usually be based on calculations on the model size. Numbers given to 40K tanks seem to match she scale of the models. If it was not the case this time, it might indeed be the case of the calculations being made before the model was completed. What absolutely will not happen, like ever, is GW or FW change their model sizes based on some ancient page filler most people have forgotten a long time ago. So do yourself a favour, calculate the 'real world' sizes for these planes based on the model size, then put that in your head canon. Ta da, the models are correctly scaled now! Certainly much easier than building your own models in a different scale which might be made obsolete any moment FW prints a new book.


Actually outside of the Rhino many of FW's vehicle numbers don't match the models. They do mostly appear to be consistent with each other though, which is why I often use them when no better source is available.

And since it's my headcanon, you know, I think I'll do exactly what I said I will. Maybe one day you'll find it in your heart to forgive me for that

puzzledust wrote:

FTFY.


No I meant what I said. It doesn't matter. If it matters that much to you then I would suggest prioritizing your life.


You're on a forum for wee toy models chief, glass houses eh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 15:57:33


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Also, from the same FB post,
You get all ordance options for every plane.
.

Whatever that means.
Missiles, bombs, extra guns!



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Yodhrin wrote:
And since it's my headcanon, you know, I think I'll do exactly what I said I will. Maybe one day you'll find it in your heart to forgive me for that

So numbers which FW gives for Rhinos (which matches the model scale) is wrong, but the numbers they give for these planes (which do not) are correct... OK, buddy, you do you and good luck.

I for one am pleased that these planes are correctly scaled in relation to their 40K counterparts, just like the AT titans are.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Yodhrin wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:

So if they eventually do Epic and have 8mm Marines and scale the Rhino proportionately to the 40K one, you'll say that's correctly scaled as well?

Yes. And so would you if you take those obscure FW numbers as gospel.


I don't treat them as gospel. For this particular model, I treat them as the best available info, because it is - as AndrewG has demonstrated, none of the actual Thunderbolt models produced, in any scale, have been consistent, either with the given numbers or with each other, so if anything is "bonkers" it's taking that as gospel. For Rhinos, I scale them exactly the same way I scale the 40K version - based on the Marines.

Like I say, you can not care about the scale if you like, but some do and are using the best available info to try and fix it - to me that seems perfectly inoffensive, so what's your problem?

I don't have a problem,


You really really do man, because only someone with an actual problem could take the idea of trying to rationalise 40K's wonko vehicle scaling as some kind of personal affront as you seem to be.

but you do, because you're made up one in your head, by elevating some random background nugget from out of print book above what is right in front of our eyes. It is perfectly possible that if they reprint those numbers, and they notice this disparity and care about it (big ifs, I know) that they change those numbers to match the model sizes. FWs background numbers seem usually be based on calculations on the model size. Numbers given to 40K tanks seem to match she scale of the models. If it was not the case this time, it might indeed be the case of the calculations being made before the model was completed. What absolutely will not happen, like ever, is GW or FW change their model sizes based on some ancient page filler most people have forgotten a long time ago. So do yourself a favour, calculate the 'real world' sizes for these planes based on the model size, then put that in your head canon. Ta da, the models are correctly scaled now! Certainly much easier than building your own models in a different scale which might be made obsolete any moment FW prints a new book.


Actually outside of the Rhino many of FW's vehicle numbers don't match the models. They do mostly appear to be consistent with each other though, which is why I often use them when no better source is available.

And since it's my headcanon, you know, I think I'll do exactly what I said I will. Maybe one day you'll find it in your heart to forgive me for that

puzzledust wrote:

FTFY.


No I meant what I said. It doesn't matter. If it matters that much to you then I would suggest prioritizing your life.


You're on a forum for wee toy models chief, glass houses eh.


Exactly! Now you're getting it partner.
I'm not complaigning or arguing about the difference in a few mm because I understand I am on a forum for "wee toy models".
Now apply that same logic to yourself and "tada!" problem solved. You can do it!
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Getting flashbacks to X-Wing's A-Wing size and scale debates here!



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Crimson wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
And since it's my headcanon, you know, I think I'll do exactly what I said I will. Maybe one day you'll find it in your heart to forgive me for that

So numbers which FW gives for Rhinos (which matches the model scale) is wrong,


No, they're wrong because they match the model's size, which is incorrect based on literally every piece of background material that describes the Rhino and its capacity when compared to the miniatures of the things that are meant to go inside it.

but the numbers they give for these planes (which do not) are correct... OK, buddy, you do you and good luck.


They're better than going by the completely inconsistent models anyway. And I will thanks.

I for one am pleased that these planes are correctly scaled in relation to their 40K counterparts, just like the AT titans are.


OK, based on this and the Rhino remark, I'm beginning to think this whole stream of nonsense has just been because you don't understand what I mean when I say "scale"?

puzzledust wrote:

Exactly! Now you're getting it partner.
I'm not complaigning or arguing about the difference in a few mm because I understand I am on a forum for "wee toy models".
Now apply that same logic to yourself and "tada!" problem solved. You can do it!


I've always been getting it "partner", the only difference between us is I'm not wonky enough in the noggin to believe that the particular bits of the hobby that I care about are somehow not nerdy nonsense - I hate to break it to you, but if you're here, then telling anyone else to "examine their priorities" is just lul-worthy.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yodhrin, just admit you already made your mind and never intended to buy the GW starter box anyway, so that you can justify using 3D printing for "not lightning" miniatures. It will be more honest.

Since the real calculations were showed on this thread already, the new AI models are actually in scale with the new Titanicus models. You don't like them and want to find something more suitable to your personal tastes, that's fine. But it's not for "being closer to official scale" reasons, here.

Fun fact : I always thought the Lightning was smaller than that in comparison to the other planes. Don't know why. They look fine so far, but I wonder if the connection to the flying base will be strong enough for game handling.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Yodhrin, I do understand what scale is, and I indeed do care about it quite a bit. However I am not sure you understand that the things these models depict are not real. Thus there really cannot be 'correct' scale, merely consistency.

Even if one would accept that there might be some scaling issues with the Rhino* such issues do not exist with the models of these planes or the titans. 40K versions of both show normal 40K scaled pilot models in them. So the scale of the models is perfectly fine.


* (I loved when they used to make models of marines hanging on and riding on top of the Rhino. That way it could carry ten)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 17:10:09


   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




Seeing those pic just make me afraid we had to buy resin upgrade for Marauder destroyer.

Worst case it happen, i might have to use the autocannon from the thunderbolt to make one.

Also I hope Lightning and voss lightning have new loadout/variant. Maybe we'll see a fighters full of autocannon or lascannon, the ultimate dakka fighter!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/24 17:57:06


 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

You guys are laughable, for real - more rabid than the anti-truescale Marine fanatics.


 Crimson wrote:
Yodhrin, I do understand what scale is, and I indeed do care about it quite a bit. However I am not sure you understand that the things these models depict are not real. Thus there really cannot be 'correct' scale, merely consistency.

Even if one would accept that there might be some scaling issues with the Rhino* such issues do not exist with the models of these planes or the titans. 40K versions of both show normal 40K scaled pilot models in them. So the scale of the models is perfectly fine.


* (I loved when they used to make models of marines hanging on and riding on top of the Rhino. That way it could carry ten)


If you're having to resort to "hurr it's all just toys and not real durr"...yeah.

Consistency is indeed exactly the issue - you're happy with consistency in the same sense GW are, ie everything is made smaller than the 40K models by the same amount. Great. Wonderful. Enjoy. Have at it. Unlike yourself, I don't begrudge other people their preferred standard. I prefer consistency in the sense of everything being scaled "correctly" relative to the "actual" scale of the Titans, based on the numbers when given, or by a best estimate when there are no numbers or the numbers are inconsistent with other more fundamental background material.

 Sarouan wrote:
Yodhrin, just admit you already made your mind and never intended to buy the GW starter box anyway, so that you can justify using 3D printing for "not lightning" miniatures. It will be more honest.


I don't need to "justify" anything. I had intended to 3D print the aircraft, as I said before. Had the new AI models matched the size I intended to print them in, I'd have bought the plastics instead because they look to be a bit more detailed than the STL files I have. They're not, so I will be 3D printing them, and have zero qualms about that, just like I have zero qualms about 3D printing a lot of other stuff - whole Epic armies in fact, and BFG ships, and SM vehicles for 40K so they fit with my "truescale" Marines. You're evidently labouring under the misapprehension that I subscribe to the idea that printing stuff is something shameful that needs to be excused - it isn't, and it doesn't.

Since the real calculations were showed on this thread already, the new AI models are actually in scale with the new Titanicus models. You don't like them and want to find something more suitable to your personal tastes, that's fine. But it's not for "being closer to official scale" reasons, here.


OK, I'm confused here. If my whole argument is that AT *has* no "official scale" because it's just a 1/4 reduction of the 40K model sizes and the 40K models don't have a consistent scale, how can I be also be arguing that my method of making things consistent with each other is closer to the official scale? What I stated - and this is simply factually true - is that the sizes of the models don't match up with the numbers given for the "real" size of these vehicles in the background books. And I never claimed that adhering to that standard was anything other than personal preference, it's Crimson et al that are seemingly taking personal offense that others might view things differently.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/24 18:19:34


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






You're getting criticism because you're willing to sacrifice model quality over a slight scale "error" based on zero-effort source material that is full of nonsense numbers. Sure, you have the right to elevate that one particular source over all others and let it dictate your purchasing choices, but don't expect anyone to think you're making a reasonable choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/24 18:26:05


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Yodhrin wrote:


If you're having to resort to "hurr it's all just toys and not real durr"...yeah.

This not what I mean. I take my toy soldier very seriously too. But it is still all made up, and there is no reason to think that one made up number is more correct than another. Nothing in the titan or plane models indicate that there would be anything wrong with their scaling in relation to the human miniatures, thus one might as well accept those sizes.

Consistency is indeed exactly the issue - you're happy with consistency in the same sense GW are, ie everything is made smaller than the 40K models by the same amount. Great. Wonderful. Enjoy. Have at it. Unlike yourself, I don't begrudge other people their preferred standard. I prefer consistency in the sense of everything being scaled "correctly" relative to the "actual" scale of the Titans, based on the numbers when given, or by a best estimate when there are no numbers or the numbers are inconsistent with other more fundamental background material.

But there isn't 'actual scale' of titans. Their states vary wildly in the fiction. We can literally see what size the princeps is compared to their titan. That is closest to the 'real size' as we're going to get. You have made up a standard in your head and do not even apply it consistenly. Sometimes the problem is that the model and stated numbers for it's size in FW publications are too small for what it 'sensibly' should be (Rhino,) sometimes there seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with the scaling of the models when comparing them to the infantry models (titans, aeroplanes) yet now them not matching the stated FW numbers that were quickly abandoned in the previous case is a problem. And of course expecting GW to conform to some arbitrary and bizarre standards that you have concocted is absurd.

Crimson et al that are seemingly taking personal offense that others might view things differently.
I am not offended, merely confused.

   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




USA

Looking forward to this one, I like that the fighters are a bit bigger than expected. Should make painting them more fun.

I've never played AI, so if the "How to play videos" from around the internet look fun I'm definitely picking this up.

Also can we take the scale discussion to the SG forum please? I know it's not off topic, but a page and a half of arguing over the scale does make it a bit hard to find other information about that game.

 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan






Are there any more details on how the game plays? Getting bored seeing posts of Yodhrin embarrassing himself now
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Warwickscire

 reds8n wrote:
few odd pics :



Look at that! Wonderous! Now, time to pressure specialist games to include aircraft rules in Titanicus
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






And rules for knight-sized Stormcasts!

   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Official announcement will pop up tomorrow at the usual time and if we're lucky, a how to play video or at the very least two to three articles on the game and the models throughout the week.

I'm hoping that the €200,- I've set aside is enough to get everything in one go.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think half that will, assuming you just wanted the core set and the two sets of ace cards.

I think we'll see other factions come out as model sets and card decks. Not in the main rulebook - given there's no models yet.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

News of the campaign book, extra map and dice make me worry though that it may not be enough..!



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Assuming it all comes out in one week and isn't just the box at first, then the other stuff a week or two later. SM are still waiting for 2/3 of their kits in addition to the supplements.
   
 
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