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 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.

"Re-roll a hit roll of 1" is very specifically a singular hit roll of 1 each time the model makes a ranged attack. Wording is clear but application is clunky and hard to use. Rolling those rapid fire shots per model etc.

Did you not see my explanation? Each attack is made one at a time. A heavy bolter makes 3 attacks, and each of those attacks can be re-rolled if 1.

Right you are page 179-181

I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.

I don't see how the points value is relevant. A 17% increase in durability is a 17% regardless of what it's on. It's not like I get any extra bonus if my troops are 20+pt Warriors instead.

That's fair on the bolt weapon requirement, though. At least it's not bonus hits for Hellblasters.

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

I take you never seen ork book then? They also have 2 traits each, hell, ork 'salamanders' are still better than SM ones, even with this buff.

Also storm troopers have better weapons than most marines, plus orders to boot. Their doctrine is more useful, plus, you ignore all the examples where SM are still worse. For example, the -1 to hit Ultramarines have after falling back is dumb, IG and Orks (maybe more, these two just came to mind) can do it too with no penalties...

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

It's also a nice way to sell more Drop Pods & Devastators

catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.

I don't see how the points value is relevant. A 17% increase in durability is a 17% regardless of what it's on. It's not like I get any extra bonus if my troops are 20+pt Warriors instead.

That's fair on the bolt weapon requirement, though. At least it's not bonus hits for Hellblasters.

Point values are relevant because cheaper models get more out of needing to roll a 6+++.

Imagine Cultists or Infantry getting it for no requirement. At least Poxwalkers pay for their 5+++ and morale, and they don't get an armor save (in the open) either.

loving these DIY chapter tactics. looking forward to giving my Stormcrows their own rules!

You know, now that we have seen the new half-traits, I wonder if Blood Raven ones are on the mixing table too. Hopefully you can take the useless garbage that is first half of their trait and replace it with anything else. But then again, even librarian buff won't be that good unless new psychic tables are fixed...

After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"

However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

It needs to be this way because the marine statline is bad. Marines are less efficient per point compared to these other units. The more powerful trait is a way to make them viable with blanket rules. Otherwise GW would have to go and change the statline on pretty much every marine datasheet, which means reprinting half their books or more.

Even with the +1 attack from shock assault and these double traits, its still pretty likely that regular marines will not be worth fielding. Primaris may work now. More likely we'll see a situation like what Chaos is in where some marine vehicles and characters are now good due to getting traits, but we still don't see regular marine infantry on the field.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"

However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.

Sweet, thanx

-

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

 Irbis wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

I take you never seen ork book then? They also have 2 traits each, hell, ork 'salamanders' are still better than SM ones, even with this buff.

Also storm troopers have better weapons than most marines, plus orders to boot. Their doctrine is more useful, plus, you ignore all the examples where SM are still worse. For example, the -1 to hit Ultramarines have after falling back is dumb, IG and Orks (maybe more, these two just came to mind) can do it too with no penalties...

Half the Ork Clans have single traits, but those single traits tend to be pretty good (except maybe Snakebites).

I like how the Ork book made a lot of things quite a bit better rather than just making them cheaper, and I'm especially happy that the new SM book is doing this since they are supposed to be an elite army. I'm hoping some of the earlier books will also get multi-part faction abilities.

I'm wondering what the new Imperial Fists stratagem will be since the old one got rolled into their Chapter Tactic?

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"

However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.

Sweet, thanx

-

So I just re-read the Rapid Fire rules, I think I was wrong here. I think that it's going to be 13.5" for both.

A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range.

Same wording as the Melta rule. Since you're not modifying the characteristic of the weapon itself, you use the real value of 13.5" for both.

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward

27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"

However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.

So Sternguard would get their Rapid Fire at 17" basically.

That's a bit much but they're still expensive so...

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.

I told you guys the Tactic was really bad...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.

I told you guys the Tactic was really bad...

Definitely not disagreeing there. Easily the worse than its original form, even with the added bolt weapon bonus. GW really screwed the pooch on this one.

So I wonder if the Blood ravens info was actually a preview of the DIY chapter system. I also wonder if the chief libby strat will be one of the new strats in the book, I could see GW giving us a few starts like that, chief librarian. one extra psykic power, high reclusiarch the ability to take another litany etc. (or maybe get them off on 2+s since I doubt we're going to have the miniors a dark apostate has)

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.

and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.

Er, the new Crimson Fist tactic is amazing. True, the +1 to hit is a little worse and no longer combos with bolter drill, but the the second part is always on all your units and you don't need to spend command points.

Plus, its extra hits on unmodified 6s now. That's not extra attacks, that's an extra hit. As written, that's all 6s, including during overwatch. That doubles the damage they do on overwatch with bolters! Which is probably why they threw the boost to overwatch on IH to give them three traits.

I mean there are other thing you can use it for too. Drop a max sized squad of vet Intercessors and unleash a massive amount of bolter shots with the +1 still kicking in against squads of 15+.

Ah, so literally never use it since no one runs big units like that. Fantastic. And fluffwise, CF ran smaller units because they had fewer Marines. That is the fluff basis for their tactics. They even do so now because they have adapted their training regimen. So using big units as a basis makes no sense.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.

and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.

At the very least Militarum Tempestus should get a supplement. Some of the old orders could be shined up and called new, a revamp to the doctrine to allow extra hits on sixes like in Killteam, special stratagems, and still having access to the Advisors and Auxillia list units.