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Martel732 wrote:
AB? Is that a dark angel abbrev?

Attack Bike. FWIW, its T5 4W Sv3+ with jink makes it quite durable for early game screening (I use the 100mm base version supplied with the 2017 battleforce which provides it ridiculous amount of DS denial coverage) and late game obj grabber.

Oh yeah, attack bikes. I use them a lot now after the CA price drop. And mine aren't fancy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you want a unit that...

...can deepstrike
...is highly durable
...has a modest amount of shooting
...is competent at melee
...doesn't use more than 5% of your points for a single unit

Then you have certain options.

VV w/ JP are 3 points less than Grav Reivers. They have the same melee attacks, a more basic pistol, and 1 wound less. Reivers are better for the job.
Bolter Inceptors are 35 points and so trade durability for shooting. Reivers are better for the job.
Terminators are 34 points. They're certainly durable and shooty, but for 100 points you can't take 5. Reivers are better for the job.

There are many games I've lost, because my opponent had cheap options to sneak into corners and my deployment late game scoring them secondaries. Reivers may not be as cheap as 5 assault marines, but they're certainly more useful overall.

If you want a unit that comes screeching down with a gakload of toys - VV or terminators might be your thing, but that's not the goal here. Besides all this there are certainly other updates coming in the new codex.

D2 weapons and abilities are so common having a second wound doesn't matter half the time. If most of what I'm fielding is going to die on an average roll, I'd rather have more cheap bodies than pay for stats that don't matter.

Martel732 wrote:
AB? Is that a dark angel abbrev?

assault Bike.

I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

My biggest issue with them in both theory and in practice is that I have other tools both within the marine book and the wider IOM soup kitchen that can do their job better. Additionally, they are in a FOC slot that is incredibly crowded at this point,

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

this is assuming they don't buff the stats of bolt carbines. we've heard rumor assault bolt rifles are getting buffed

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Ehh IMO DW players aren't that smart. They take vets to much and not enough primaris.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Ehh IMO DW players aren't that smart. They take vets to much and not enough primaris.

DW players are usually Spike players.
I wouldn't be surprised if they knew the game more than yourself.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Ehh IMO DW players aren't that smart. They take vets to much and not enough primaris.

DW players are usually Spike players.
I wouldn't be surprised if they knew the game more than yourself.

I know the game pretty well dude. DW players aren't winning gak with a really good codex they aren't doing something right.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Ehh IMO DW players aren't that smart. They take vets to much and not enough primaris.

DW players are usually Spike players.
I wouldn't be surprised if they knew the game more than yourself.

Not even close to accurate. Most DW players are fotm SS/SB vet players who forget 90% of the strats available to them. I haven't seen a single streamed competitive game at any level where the DW player knew what they were doing.

And I have long been trying to find one. The majority aren't anywhere near open minded enough to even try Primaris. This full on fallacy that everyone takes 2 damage weapons in the dozens keeps them away.

Lemondish wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I feel like with doctrines they are pretty dang good now. You can put them in a really safe place and dump ap-1 downrange.While intercessors can do ap2 - they probably wont be in range of the unit you want. Reivers can target them. I think as imperial fist they will be quite good.

They could already do that under Deathwatch and weren't taken. Bad assessment.

Ehh IMO DW players aren't that smart. They take vets to much and not enough primaris.

DW players are usually Spike players.
I wouldn't be surprised if they knew the game more than yourself.

Not even close to accurate. Most DW players are fotm SS/SB vet players who forget 90% of the strats available to them. I haven't seen a single streamed competitive game at any level where the DW player knew what they were doing.

And I have long been trying to find one. The majority aren't anywhere near open minded enough to even try Primaris. This full on fallacy that everyone takes 2 damage weapons in the dozens keeps them away.

I am sure there are some good DW players but you are right. Most don't even consider primaris. In many cases primaris are better than vets.

I think a 5 man Reiver with HBolt Pistols and Combat knives will be one of my assault units for later game. Perhaps with a Chaplain. if I can delay the assault till the Melee doctrine is up, 20x Str 4 ATK at -1AP rerolling to hit has some clearing possibilities.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

Having utility =/= 'nothing wrong with them'. What's wromg with them is that dozens of units can do what they do either better or cheaper. You can fellate yourself as much as you want about successes you've had with them, but the fact of the matter is that other units just do more for the investment than Reivers do.


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Reemule wrote:
I think a 5 man Reiver with HBolt Pistols and Combat knives will be one of my assault units for later game. Perhaps with a Chaplain. if I can delay the assault till the Melee doctrine is up, 20x Str 4 ATK at -1AP rerolling to hit has some clearing possibilities.

You'd be better off taking a unit that's good at assault. Also, isn't a chaplain almost the same price as a unit of reivers? Why wouldn't you just take two units of reivers? Or two chaplains?

Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

This is a big issue with them, they are primarily a melee unit that has no options for taking useful melee weapons. Anything that is scared of S4 ap- attacks is something I can probably just shoot to death and not deal with having to hold a somewhat costly unit in reserves for multiple turns who might not get a charge off anyway. It's a weakness of most of the primaris units in general, GW has basically killed unit options.

 Ishagu wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
Probably he values their ability to arrive turn three.
But this also means you have 200pts less firepower on the table 1st and 2nd turns, and this is pretty rough, marines are already outnumbered in almost every matchup.

Aha. You're only concerned with firepower?

Very basic way to play 40k. There are armies that win without ever firing a shot. There are units that make a difference without ever attacking an enemy.

The game is much more than maths and shooting.

Its not just their firepower you don't get to use for multiple turns. Its that utility. Their potential to draw fire and spread out casualties.


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 Ishagu wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Why are you focusing on the lucky 6? I literally explained that I don't care about the damage. That was just a funny quirk in the game.

Infiltrators are great, a bit too pricey at the moment. The infiltrate is very useful but it''s also very different from arriving in the later turns. The Reivers are there to respond to shifts in the battlefield and grab objectives that might not be apparent or possible on turn 1.

Because it wasn’t relevant? It didn’t trigger anything, you didn’t need to be a Reiver to use it?

I repeat - Infiltrators are 11.5 per wound when you said Reivers were an attractive 10 points per wound, have Infiltrate and a Anti Deep Strike bubble. And better shooting though Beta Bolter, and their natural 6 gimmick. And a medic. AND objective secured. Why is 10 points great, and 11.5 for far more bad?

Deploying outside of your zone and arriving on turn 3 are two completely different things. You are comparing apples to oranges.
I have no problem with Infiltrators but they perform a different role.

No, I'm comparing you drooling over 10 points a wound, and complaining about 11.5 points a wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dai wrote:
I think that points efficiency is massively overblown online. Ok, if throughout the whole list you are taking the absolute most "efficient" option for every conceivable role then yeah it'll likely make a huge difference. A few points here and there over a similar unit, meh. Reavers are a visually interesting addition to the range and sold like hotcakes according to Jes Goodwin, when I have used them I haven't found them to be useless although I am certainly not facing OP lists.

Something else being slightly more efficient (don't know how true that actually is and I suspect most who make the statement don't either beyond some theory) doesn't equate to "useless", it's a strange and increasing popular sentiment.

I frequently take things that aren't points efficient. That doesn't mean I don't know they're not points efficient, and I could have taken something better.

What's with their name? It sits far outside the theme of the other names.

It's like having mates called maximus, thor, belephon and Bob....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

Intercessors have neither Deep Strike nor Infiltrate, no shortcut across the board - which is the "utility" he's talking about.

Of course, they pay as much for one third of a Jump Pack utility as Assault Marines pay for all three thirds - Deep Strike, ignore height, Movement Speed.

But it's hard to figure out the thinking. 10 points per model for a little utility is good, 11.5 for more is over-costed. A drop Pod is 8 points per wound, and has the same deep strike rule as the Reivers, giving you linebreaker and scoring an undefended objective - but Drop Pods are bad I'm being told.

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

Intercessors have neither Deep Strike nor Infiltrate, no shortcut across the board - which is the "utility" he's talking about.

Of course, they pay as much for one third of a Jump Pack utility as Assault Marines pay for all three thirds - Deep Strike, ignore height, Movement Speed.

But it's hard to figure out the thinking. 10 points per model for a little utility is good, 11.5 for more is over-costed. A drop Pod is 8 points per wound, and has the same deep strike rule as the Reivers, giving you linebreaker and scoring an undefended objective - but Drop Pods are bad I'm being told.

Pods are horrendous when used offensively, largely because there's really nothing you can put it in to make 65 pts deepstrike upgrade worthwhile.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
My biggest issue with them in both theory and in practice is that I have other tools both within the marine book and the wider IOM soup kitchen that can do their job better. Additionally, they are in a FOC slot that is incredibly crowded at this point,

What other elite slot units are you taking may I ask? I always find SM elite slot largely unused because they're typically overcosted.

I gotta admit, I was pretty dead set at ranking Reivers are garbage, but this thread has changed my mind somewhat. Primaris heavy armies really struggle with late game mobility, so I could see the reivers making a difference there.

Like others, I'm concerned about the loss of early game firepower, as well as thinking you could hedge your bets with attack bikes as a late turn objective grabber.

Thing is, with the new buffs, White Scar reivers look amazing. extra attacks, extra damage on hits, etc. Their biggest weakness is still their low-strength attacks.

The only time i've seen them used close to their purpose is in a game of UM vs AM+, clearing out sniper units clumped on the top of a tower. They are in my mind an anti squatter unit. They can easily tie up snipers and what not in places it would take 1-2 turns for normal infantry to do, for a lot less cost.

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

Intercessors have neither Deep Strike nor Infiltrate, no shortcut across the board - which is the "utility" he's talking about.

Of course, they pay as much for one third of a Jump Pack utility as Assault Marines pay for all three thirds - Deep Strike, ignore height, Movement Speed.

But it's hard to figure out the thinking. 10 points per model for a little utility is good, 11.5 for more is over-costed. A drop Pod is 8 points per wound, and has the same deep strike rule as the Reivers, giving you linebreaker and scoring an undefended objective - but Drop Pods are bad I'm being told.

Reivers don't have Infiltrate either so...
Also the utility that Infiltrators offer is a LOT better for those couple of points. Denying Deep Strike space is better than morale stuff that doesn't do anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors are better at assault as they can be Vets and have a Power Sword/Fist

Intercessors have neither Deep Strike nor Infiltrate, no shortcut across the board - which is the "utility" he's talking about.

Of course, they pay as much for one third of a Jump Pack utility as Assault Marines pay for all three thirds - Deep Strike, ignore height, Movement Speed.

But it's hard to figure out the thinking. 10 points per model for a little utility is good, 11.5 for more is over-costed. A drop Pod is 8 points per wound, and has the same deep strike rule as the Reivers, giving you linebreaker and scoring an undefended objective - but Drop Pods are bad I'm being told.

Reivers don't have Infiltrate either so...
Also the utility that Infiltrators offer is a LOT better for those couple of points. Denying Deep Strike space is better than morale stuff that doesn't do anything.

For me, Infiltrators are a bit of a tough sell as they command a premium on points for features I don't know I will make very good use of. I am far more comfortable with what Intercessors bring to the table and have accepted how much of my budget they are going to cost me. I am not that bothered by my opponent's deep strike much since it doesn't really disrupt my army that much (flying tanks and infantry that has been hitting decently well in close combat). Plus, anything I put into deep strike usually does affect what my opponent does with his. I also think I am fairly weak at deployment (I have been in any other wargame) so it is easy enough for me to position Infiltrators where they are basically cut off from the rest of my force and can be easily defeated in detail. I am trying to include them in my army more often, but every time I feel like I am using them poorly. So there is a good chance I am not making the best use of Infiltrators to want to use them in place of Reviers. Besides I like the Reviers models more.

I think there is something to be said for Reivers being forced to deploy (unless in your deployment zone) no earlier than turn 2 and possibly turn 3 being a better time to bring them in if you can manage the fight 10% or less than you would have otherwise. Part of me think Reivers might be pretty good as mop up teams for enemy units that have been beat up during previous rounds. I just need the rest of my army to be able to make that opportunity happen, but I am willing to give it a go. I can, and have, see Reivers being much better taking and holding an objective compared to assault marines. Reivers have just a little more killing power (that Terror Troops thing can have a little bit of use on occasion) and much better staying power. I am pretty sure you say that Damage 2 weapons are everywhere, but I haven't had that issue as much as it had been stated on Dakka Dakka. I don't play on the bleeding edge of the meta, so Hakuna Matata.

It is possible that Reivers work pretty well on a 'come from behind strategy for progressive scoring missions if they deep strike late. I have always leaned toward an alpha strike play style and trying not to run out of steam late game so I don't have much experience with it. I do appreciate the feedback from Ishagu and Martel732. Both of them have given me things to consider I previously didn't.

BT reivers can use vanguard hq to charge pretty reliably too.

 skchsan wrote:


Pods are horrendous when used offensively, largely because there's really nothing you can put it in to make 65 pts deepstrike upgrade worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My biggest issue with them in both theory and in practice is that I have other tools both within the marine book and the wider IOM soup kitchen that can do their job better. Additionally, they are in a FOC slot that is incredibly crowded at this point,

What other elite slot units are you taking may I ask? I always find SM elite slot largely unused because they're typically overcosted.

You can make the pod worthwhile, but that wasn't the point. A pod is 8 points per wound and deep strikes. Equal or better to the criteria for thinking Reivers are good.

The Elite slot is overstuffed after the breakup of the Command Squad. Your Command Squad now take four Elite Slots - assuming you make the entire thing. Plus Aggressors, Vanguard Vets, Sternguard, Termies, and Dreads.

Dreads, apothecaries (especially on a bike) , FW units of all kinds and stern guard are still solid with the new bolter rules and now the new assault rules. Biggest thing is if I need a unit to magically appear on turn 2 or 3 I have other slots and units that can do that.

If they had a way to access to a real melee weapon or short range plasma I'd buy into them more. Another issue I have with them is that their movement rules are either clutch or useless depending on what the board has as terrain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Reivers don't have Infiltrate either so...
Also the utility that Infiltrators offer is a LOT better for those couple of points. Denying Deep Strike space is better than morale stuff that doesn't do anything.

That was the point I was making.

Well, now there are ways to get +2 to the charge using CT combinations.

This means you can have Reivers arriving from reserve, charging reliably and hitting with 41 Attacks at Ap-1

Sounds great by any measure