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I suppose I'll have to eat my proverbial hat... I honestly thought based on previous years that we were going to be passed over this cycle. Obviously I am not particularly thrilled with the cost increases listed (need time to adequately gather my thoughts), so I'll focus more on what so far has been listed as dropping:

 Khorzain wrote:

Hybrid Metamorphs - Down 2 points: from 9 to 7

Metamorph Claw - Down 2 points: from 4 to 2

This is actually very interesting. Now there is an option to pay 2 points to specialize the model for dedicated anti-horde (twin-talons) or anti-heavy infantry (claw), pay 1 point to go for a generalist (Talon + Rending Claw), or simply side-grade from an Acolyte for +1 attack but no heavy weapons (Whip). Hand flamers should be a more appealing option as well, since they aren't paying such a premium over their troop counterparts for the privilege.

I had already favored deploying Metamorphs with Psychic Summons, but with the prices on their equipment equalized it makes it much easier to tailor the squad to the opponent without having left over points floating around. I'll have to dust off my Claw-morphs and see how squads of them fair now.

 Khorzain wrote:

Achilles Ridgerunner - Went down 15 points: from 50 to 35

Heavy Mining Laser - Down 10 points: from 25 to 15

Missile Launcher - Down 5 points: from 15 to 10

Unexpected but very much welcome adjustments all around. The Missile Launcher change is probably more useful for Sentinels than the Ridgerunner, if only because the Heavy Mining Laser is a nice weapon with limited access. I'd be curious if any of the systems upgrades dropped in cost as well, but even still a ~25 point savings goes a long way towards another hull or more troops. I already had a few lists with 15 odd vehicles, so it will be interesting to see if the cost revisions allow me to squeeze in any more.

 Khorzain wrote:

Cult Leman Russ - Down 15 points: from 122 to 107

I assume this is the same reduction that the AM version received? In either case, cheaper anvil pieces are nice to have.

 Khorzain wrote:

Goliath Rockgrinder:

Clearance Incinerator - down 10 points: from 30 to 20

Heavy Mining Laser - down 10 points: from 25 to 15

Heavy Seismic Cannon: down 5 points: from 20 to 15

More or less same sentiments as the Ridgerunner. The weapon cost drops reduce the cost of the chassis a fair amount and make it easier to squeeze more hulls in. The only thing I'm not sure I like is that the Heavy Mining Laser and Heavy Seismic Cannon are at the same cost. It will be interesting to see which gun ends up being better for budget Rockgrinders, since the Seismic Cannon offers more consistency with its fixed rate of fire but the Mining Laser has more damage potential and obviously has better range for its high powered shots.

Very happy about the rock drill, ridgerunner and metamorph changes. I am very interested in trying out 10 morph squads with hand flamers and talons for a mass attack type unit. 6 x morph squads with claws in rockgrinders seems like it could be fun too.

Rule of three nips that in the bum.

I meant units of 6 models, not 6 units of Metamorphs, sorry for the confusion.

The awkward transport size of the Rockgrinder really limits its utility as a transport for most of our units. I have used aberrants in rockgrinders, but they tend to make the vehicle a huge target. Not a big fan of 5-6 man acolyte squads, either, as they don’t generate enough attacks to really kill anything. But a 6 man unit of morphs with hand flamers and either talons or claws is cheap enough at 60 points, and gets either 31 S4 AP - attacks that hit on a 2+, or in the case of claws 19 S6 AP -1 attacks. Not bad, and at 60 points for the squad it’s not a big deal if they die.

I was interested in fielding a unit of Metamorphs before CA, now with the points reduction, they do seem to be a decent option.

Give them a Cult Icon and dual-talon metamorphs hit on 2's and re-roll 1's, which allows them to be fairly self-sufficient without character support. The high number of attacks and hit reliability seems great for GEQ screen clearance — but the lack of AP might be an issue for MEQs.

Although if you use something to give them +1 strength then they'll be wounding T4 on 3's, which is really nice when paired with the high number of attacks.

I'm still not entirely sold on the Metamorph Claws though. You do get to wound T3 on 2's, but it's only -1 AP and 1 damage — comparatively you miss out on 10-20 attacks and have -1 to hit unless you drop them next to a Primus. There's a few ways to bump claws up to S8 — but I don't think it's really worth it considering the low AP and damage — I believe our standard Acolytes are still better for that.

I do like the idea of running 6 of them in a Rockgrinder, though I'm not sure how to effectively use them yet.

Well, S6 gives them a bit of versatility, as they can threaten light armor and are much more effective against T5 things, like Death Guard. Also, claws are not -1 to hit (perhaps you just meant they don’t get the +1 to hit that talons do?), so I’m not really seeing the issue. The 6 morph unit gets 19 attacks, so probably 12-13 hits. Against MEQs, the performance of the weapons is identical:

12.66 hits translate into ~8.3 wounds. At a 4+ save, the MEQs take about 4.15 unsaved wounds.

31 S4 attacks hits 5/6 of the time = 25.8 hits. Wound on a 4 reduces that to 12.9 wounds. Save on a 3+ = 4.3 wounds after saves. So a very slightly better performance by the talons, but pretty marginal and maybe you would prefer the extra versatility that claws offer against some opponents who have a lot of T5/T6 things. And the points cost of both models is now identical at 9 points. Just a thought.

I think the main point of differentiation between claws or talons is probably going to be how much support you are willing to invest in the unit. Talon-morphs are mostly independent. They only support they really like is some sort of strength buff, Calamus' +1 to charges buff, and Meticulous Uprising for rerolls to wound. Claw-morphs in contrast basically benefit from everything and have a higher potential to get silly (41 S9 attacks that hit on 2s, reroll 1's to hit and reroll 1's to wound against a key target?)

I'm planning on giving both specialized configurations a go to see who performs better (I have used the Single-Talon Metamorphs and they shredded everything I pointed them at). I'd imagine claws will still probably see a play even if talons end up being stronger, from all the people who bought and converted them in high quantities for the 7th edition book and haven't had a good reason to pull them out until now.

Also as an inquiry, how much work has anyone gotten out of a sniper Sanctus? I've been a bit shy about bringing mine as one of our regulars plays multi-wound Grey Knights (Dreadknights and Terminators/Paladins) and they would throw a fit facing him down. That being said, our group is starting to see an uptick in psykers generally so I think his inclusion might now be seen as a more take-all-comers asset rather than tailoring for one opponent.

I use the Sanctus. He is consistent enough to change the outcome of some games and cheap enough that I don't care when he's occasionally a weak vindicare taking potshots at characters. He's really good support for psykers and hunts down denies letting me go in with my 6 psykers of my own.

He does deploy with -1 to hit unless you blip him however, or put him in Rusted Claw. Worth keeping in mind.

The kitted our Sanctus is great, and one of our few ways of hurting obnoxious stuff like eldar hemlocks.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
I think the main point of differentiation between claws or talons is probably going to be how much support you are willing to invest in the unit. Talon-morphs are mostly independent. They only support they really like is some sort of strength buff, Calamus' +1 to charges buff, and Meticulous Uprising for rerolls to wound. Claw-morphs in contrast basically benefit from everything and have a higher potential to get silly (41 S9 attacks that hit on 2s, reroll 1's to hit and reroll 1's to wound against a key target?)

I'm planning on giving both specialized configurations a go to see who performs better (I have used the Single-Talon Metamorphs and they shredded everything I pointed them at). I'd imagine claws will still probably see a play even if talons end up being stronger, from all the people who bought and converted them in high quantities for the 7th edition book and haven't had a good reason to pull them out until now.

Pretty much this.

I have quite a few modeled with claws from back in 7th. I also happened to model all my metamorphs with hand flamers, just because I liked the look of the weapon better than the auto pistols. I also built a bunch of talon morphs and whip morphs, so I’m pretty pumped to see them looking interesting again.


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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
He does deploy with -1 to hit unless you blip him however, or put him in Rusted Claw. Worth keeping in mind.

I think you mean Bladed Cog?

I have been looking forward to trying out the Sanctus, too, but still haven’t gotten around to painting him up.

yeah i probably mean the cog sorry i get those two mixed up.

No worries, they are very similar abilities. I really like Bladed Cog actually, as I run a lot of Mining Laser/Seismic Cannon neophytes, so using a Sanctus in my Cog list sounds like a pretty fun addition. I am interested in hearing more about how they have worked for other people. I assume you take it with the Gift from Beyond relic?

its a worthless unit without the gift but really powerful with it. Don't spend the CP for that relic unless there is psykers though. Just let him be 60 pts off your list that will take potshots at wounded HQ's in those matches.

He does what he says on the tin, deals with psykers for minimal points. Really good if that's a role your team needs. I run 6 psykers so he hunts denies for me and just getting rid of enemy powers or boxing them into a corner is never bad

That sounds pretty useful, for sure. I typically run fewer psykers than that, but I also play against Craftworlds quite a bit, and their psykers and Hemlocks are extremely annoying, so I can definitely find a use for it (good point about using them against Hemlocks - I hadn’t thought of that, but that is a really strong potential use).

Too bad that farseers shrug off the mortals so easily with their ghosthelms, though there are usually other things like warlocks, spiritseers and the aforementioned Hemlocks (hate those things, although maybe we’ll be seeing a bit less of them with the points bump they got in CA). Farseers are the worst, though, with their re-rollable deny. You basically have to bait that one out, and that is usually going to cost us one of our better powers.

So, I managed to get a game on Tuesday with the following list:


My opponent brought his Ravenguard with a mix of different units (no Centurions or Aggressors, mostly vanguard marines).

Sanctus did well. He nearly 1-shot a Libby on the first turn and finished them off at the start of the 3rd turn. Using Perfect Ambush on the first turn to double-tap was quite nice. My opponent wasn't very happy with him as was expected, but they mostly left him alone in favor of going after other characters. The Hivecult detachment in general pulled most of the weight in the game, surprisingly. The first turn saw them various guns pick off infiltrators and the second turn had the Achilles 1-shot a Stormraven with some help from Chilling Efficiency and the Alphus.

The biggest problem I had in the game was horrendously bad charge rolls... Out of 8 odd charges I only made 3 (some Jackals, an Acolyte squad, and an Iconward), despite rerolls and cumulative bonuses from Four-Armed Emperor and the Clamavus. We had to end the game early due to a prior arrangement my opponent had so I'm not sure how it would have ended if we had been able to finish it. I was in a bad place, with a bunch of units left out in the open after failing their charge and down 5 points on objectives (we played one of the new Chapter Approved missions with start-of-turn scoring). Conversely, I had succeeded in cleared one objective and had units in position to take another one, so it might have been possible to rebound.

In either case, I did learn a fair amount from the game and it was a good experience overall. I'm going to keep tinkering with this core list, as it felt like it had a good toolset but some things could stand to be optimized further (I kinda threw a bit of everything in to see how the point drops turned out).

Sounds like a fun game. I love the drills, but I really feel like the unit has to be built around supporting them. I’m sure you were just giving them a go (not everybody has six drillers built and ready to go, like I do), but I feel like they are more likely to disappoint if you just throw one random drill in a unit. They at least need an Icon for a re-roll, and I tend to use Pauper Princes with them to get full re-rolls, as it is a real downer when they whiff, and with only 2 attacks that can happen pretty easily.

I like the Hivecult part of the list, though. Looks fun.

What're peoples thoughts on Aberrants in units of x5 now? I'm guessing x10 is a bit steep of an investment since the nerf?

I know the answer is, "Acolytes are still better" but frankly I'm not keen on shelling out that much for another four boxes.

Asmodas wrote:Sounds like a fun game. I love the drills, but I really feel like the unit has to be built around supporting them. I’m sure you were just giving them a go (not everybody has six drillers built and ready to go, like I do), but I feel like they are more likely to disappoint if you just throw one random drill in a unit. They at least need an Icon for a re-roll, and I tend to use Pauper Princes with them to get full re-rolls, as it is a real downer when they whiff, and with only 2 attacks that can happen pretty easily.

You are correct. I basically just tossed in everything that had a cost drop to get a feel for how they perform relative to their new costs. I didn't get an opportunity to test the drills sadly. The lone Acolyte squad that made a charge failed its wound rolls and the game ended before we could do a follow-up turn.

I think you are right though that they are far better run as a unit-wide upgrade rather than singles. I might give such unit a try next week.

Asmodas wrote:
I like the Hivecult part of the list, though. Looks fun.

It was! I was pleasantly surprised at how they performed. The creed ability didn't really come up (Patriarch stopped moral, nothing charged into my units) but their stratagem and warlord trait are both quite nice. Also the Achilles feel very nice at their new cost. As mentioned they had an extremely lucky turn and downed a Stormraven in one go, but even beyond that they did a good job picking off infiltrators and hellblasters from outside retaliation range.

Arbitrator wrote:What're peoples thoughts on Aberrants in units of x5 now? I'm guessing x10 is a bit steep of an investment since the nerf?

I know the answer is, "Acolytes are still better" but frankly I'm not keen on shelling out that much for another four boxes.

I think Aberrants should still be usable in either configuration, but I'm not sure if the Hypermorph is worth it as much with the Improvised Weapon being hiked so high (can almost buy another power pick model for the cost). For units of 5x I'd probably forgo the Hypermorph entirely and just use them as relatively independent murder squads to pick off isolated targets. The 10x squad is a hefty investment, but Aberrants have a lot of force multipliers unique to them so running a large squad does make them more efficient in that regard. I imagine the "go to" squad will probably be 8x Picks and 2x Hypermorphs with Hammers (since they still get +1 attack over a regular Hammer Aberrant) as Bladed Cog (for invul + stratagem), Pauper Princes (relic and accuracy), or Twisted Helix (stratagem and strength).

We're planning on giving the spearhead rules a try next week, so I might bring a couple squads of 5x with Hammers as dedicated heavy armor hunters. Even with the price hike such squads are relatively affordable and hard hitting despite their small footprint.

Hello Genestealer folk! i have a bit of a question.

Ive been looking into this army for an idea focused on a Great Horned Rat cult. I love the ambush nature which makes even hsorter ranged shooting more viable in my eyes. but, i was wondering how at this point this army stacks up for firepower, especially in light of the recent changes. I was thinking a Bladed Cog list for lasers and maybe a flaming bomb, but do any of you run shooting lists?

Bdrone wrote:
Hello Genestealer folk! i have a bit of a question.

Ive been looking into this army for an idea focused on a Great Horned Rat cult. I love the ambush nature which makes even hsorter ranged shooting more viable in my eyes. but, i was wondering how at this point this army stacks up for firepower, especially in light of the recent changes. I was thinking a Bladed Cog list for lasers and maybe a flaming bomb, but do any of you run shooting lists?

That sounds like an awesome concept for an army!

You are thinking absolutely right. Bladed Cog or HiveCult for neophytes with mining lasers (add webbers or grenade launchers if you like to). Handflamer bomb is also nice. Ridgerunners with heavy mining lasers are also good since the points drop in Chapter Approved.

A cult worshipping the best-best Chaos God? I support that!

It's a concept i saw floating about, but i had to consider it. one of the best things about the GSC to me is the ability to play renegade like concepts. Then I discovered how with count-as and kitbash you could run them in different ways conceptually. But then it clicked, chaos bands can work if you figure out how to story and model it.

A mere hop from that, and the Skaven came to me. Deep striking as tunneling strikes? Cobbled weaponry? Cult mutations as gifts from the rat? Aberrants and the biophages vaguely reminding me of master moulders? It works! It's a long plan, and im still trying to figure out good stand ins for some of the models, including the aberrants and jackals, but im getting somewhere on this idea.

(Aberrants issue is the base sizes and trying to track down something that bulks properly and fits on the same base. With rat ogres being so rare nowadays I might stick with them as is, righting some of the current models as mutations from the warp/warpstone. Jackals? thats where im not sure at all)

Normally im REALLY big on shooting, but i feel like the deep-strike capability of the army makes up for the lack of rangebands it does have. I did see the ridgerunner got a LOT more viable as well, but as I understand it, the rules in the army are a bit odd. Bladed Cog won't work with the ridgerunners, will it? How effective is a bulk mining laser and bomb technique? I assume you need the right melee punch, which I figure would be acolytes and aberrants?

 Asmodas wrote:
No worries, they are very similar abilities. I really like Bladed Cog actually, as I run a lot of Mining Laser/Seismic Cannon neophytes, so using a Sanctus in my Cog list sounds like a pretty fun addition. I am interested in hearing more about how they have worked for other people. I assume you take it with the Gift from Beyond relic?

Sorry I know this is late to the party but I had a Sanctus double tap a keeper of secrets (the 12 wound version prior to the new model) and I rolled hot maxing out both damages on the gun and the perils killing it and making it explode into the guys entire army. I think we counted the wounds caused in the end after the perils explosion and he caused 22 wounds total including the keeper. He has since never lived up to that moment and I doubt he ever will It was one of the most insane moments I have ever had in the game.

Sanctus with gift from beyond is nasty verse psychers, always spend CP on extra blips so you can put them in good angled positions for him to pop a psycher from when he is deployed without committing other units to those odd spots.

On a side note, I actually have used him recently with the relic dagger instead, since he can drop in later in the game when your usually out of CP and perfect ambush nice and close to a character. He is really good that way too actually, better then I expected. Honestly the two sniper characters we have are my MVP's just about every game when I dust the cult off for a scrum. The army isn't in a great spot at high point games, but they are still a load of fun in lower point laid back games.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:
No worries, they are very similar abilities. I really like Bladed Cog actually, as I run a lot of Mining Laser/Seismic Cannon neophytes, so using a Sanctus in my Cog list sounds like a pretty fun addition. I am interested in hearing more about how they have worked for other people. I assume you take it with the Gift from Beyond relic?

Sorry I know this is late to the party but I had a Sanctus double tap a keeper of secrets (the 12 wound version prior to the new model) and I rolled hot maxing out both damages on the gun and the perils killing it and making it explode into the guys entire army. I think we counted the wounds caused in the end after the perils explosion and he caused 22 wounds total including the keeper. He has since never lived up to that moment and I doubt he ever will It was one of the most insane moments I have ever had in the game.

Sanctus with gift from beyond is nasty verse psychers, always spend CP on extra blips so you can put them in good angled positions for him to pop a psycher from when he is deployed without committing other units to those odd spots.

This is exactly why I love the Sanctus. He's only 60 points and that won't happen every game. But sometimes that 60 points just gives you an amazing lead. And even when it doesn't happen, the impact it can have over the course of 5 round game, or just the fear it can generate vs certain lists, makes it so good to me.

I had mine first blood kill an Ahriman and get slay the warlord - in my OPPONENT's first turn. He was planning on warptiming his way back after getting in some cheap damage but Sanctus blew his friggin dome back, before I'd even started my first turn.

Ha ha, thats great. Yea it's oddly satisfying seeing a human level sniper be so threatening in a game with the scale and scope of 40k. I think the sanctus and alphus have more kills in my lists then the kellermorphs. People just ignore them lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:
No worries, they are very similar abilities. I really like Bladed Cog actually, as I run a lot of Mining Laser/Seismic Cannon neophytes, so using a Sanctus in my Cog list sounds like a pretty fun addition. I am interested in hearing more about how they have worked for other people. I assume you take it with the Gift from Beyond relic?

Sorry I know this is late to the party but I had a Sanctus double tap a keeper of secrets (the 12 wound version prior to the new model) and I rolled hot maxing out both damages on the gun and the perils killing it and making it explode into the guys entire army. I think we counted the wounds caused in the end after the perils explosion and he caused 22 wounds total including the keeper. He has since never lived up to that moment and I doubt he ever will It was one of the most insane moments I have ever had in the game.

Sanctus with gift from beyond is nasty verse psychers, always spend CP on extra blips so you can put them in good angled positions for him to pop a psycher from when he is deployed without committing other units to those odd spots.

On a side note, I actually have used him recently with the relic dagger instead, since he can drop in later in the game when your usually out of CP and perfect ambush nice and close to a character. He is really good that way too actually, better then I expected. Honestly the two sniper characters we have are my MVP's just about every game when I dust the cult off for a scrum. The army isn't in a great spot at high point games, but they are still a load of fun in lower point laid back games.

Yes the Sniper sanctus is only viable with the Gift from Beyond which actually fixes his S4 problem and gives him a free MW on a 4+ (which sometimes is enough to trigger Perils off and give you a chance to kill a 4W Psyker on the spot)

Bdrone wrote:
(Aberrants issue is the base sizes and trying to track down something that bulks properly and fits on the same base. With rat ogres being so rare nowadays I might stick with them as is, righting some of the current models as mutations from the warp/warpstone. Jackals? thats where im not sure at all)

Rat Ogres would be terribly oversized, Aberrants and even the Abominant are barely larger than even the newer upscaled "human" infantry models, in fact I think they're probably coming in shorter than the new Sisters, as an example, thanks to their hunches. They're obviously a lot wider though, but yea Rat Ogres would be much too large.

Bdrone wrote:
(Aberrants issue is the base sizes and trying to track down something that bulks properly and fits on the same base. With rat ogres being so rare nowadays I might stick with them as is, righting some of the current models as mutations from the warp/warpstone. Jackals? thats where im not sure at all)

Aberrants are around the same size as the classic Marines. I'm not sure if there is anything in the Skaven army list that would fit very well. You could maybe find something in the Beastman range around the same size, just do a head-swap and it should work ok.

For Jackals, maybe Skaven ridding on Chaos Warhounds?

Bdrone wrote:
Bladed Cog won't work with the ridgerunners, will it?

Sadly no. GSC vehicles don't benefit from creed abilities (and even if they did, Bladed Cog specifically works on infantry) and Bladed Cog doesn't really offer anything to vehicles besides passengers ignoring move and fire penalties (which is only really useful for the Goliath Truck). If taking vehicles, I'd suggest looking at Hivecult, since their signature stratagem applies its effects to all Hivecult units (including vehicles) and their warlord trait only affects shooting to-hit rolls. The Jackal Alphus' +1 to hit effect against a marked target does work on GSC vehicles, so she can help make up for the move-and-fire penalty (though admittedly, Ridgerunners generally have sufficient range that they don't need to move much).

Bdrone wrote:
How effective is a bulk mining laser and bomb technique? I assume you need the right melee punch, which I figure would be acolytes and aberrants?

The effectiveness depends a bit on the match-up. It brings a lot of multi-damage firepower but your anti-infantry capabilities are more limited (mostly mass S3 fire), so it will do well against an opponent with lots of multi-wound models and generally struggle against an opponent that is focusing more on single-wound or 2 wound infantry.

The melee component provides a general-purpose damage source. Most GSC melee units have sufficient volume of attacks to deal with light targets effectively while also being able to force damage on tougher targets. Acolytes and Aberrants also have the option to bring high-strength weapons in their units, giving them even more flexibility in what they can destroy.

yeah, i wagered rat ogres and such were far to big. i may just do a dodge on that one and treat the aberrants as an experiment that went right enough for use as muscle. put some warpstone shards in their backs if possible to drive the point home.

as for the Jackals, that is a solid idea Strat_N8. best one so far anyway, and possibly reasonable to employ, depending on how skaven i make my forces in the end.

hrm. as to the vehicles, ill keep the hivecult in mind, and the synergies with the alphus and cog with the trucks if used. seems like rigerunners may be just fine all on their own with a spotter alphus.

as to the effectiveness on a more shooting list, i suppose that does add up. i was thinking a list primarily focused on the neophytes with acolytes for counterpunches and a bigger one of acolytes with flame bombing in mind. i do like the acolytes, especially with mining tools. the aberrants im wary on after the increase, but they can cause some serious harm it seems. still this picture of a ragtag set up, no matter how you do it, is very much interesting to me. definitely something that would take some practice to use.

Thanks for any input sent my way, it's quite appreciated. im gonna keep putting this together as i can. I hope as more post CA comes in, we see how GSC develops. maybe something in PA for them as well.

On the subject of what units are cult creed affect. I recently played a few games with my brother testing out some vehicles using the cult creeds and oh boy does it make a bigger difference then you might think. We didn't use it on the genestealers just the GSC specific vehicles since it's pretty obvious they should at minimum gain the creeds. Ridge runners and rock grinders from bladed cog are actually quite useful and mobile with an accompanying alphus.

I really hope they get a clue and fix this issue when psychic awakening rolls out for GSC, but I won't hold out too much hope since I am a chaos player as well, and they didn't fix that issue for them. It's such a strange thing for them to ignore and not patch.