Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Man some of this is so bad is hilarious. +1 to charge and advance is already pretty meh, but then they have to go and make it unusable by limiting it to the first battle round. It's as if they bloat the game so much even they can't track all the restrictions like apparently the no reserves 1st battle round. Meanwhile Tau get to break the rule of three and take 6 commanders in an enclave list lol.

I didn't expect much, since the entire framework for the book is terrible, but I also play Guard, and it's unreal how much busted shat they poured all over that faction when they didn't really need it.

I honestly am waiting for 9th at this point. It's crazy to me how much of a 180 the last 6 months have taken on 8th. We are right back where we were at the end of 7th with all the busted overly lethal free rules and too man sources to track. On the bright side I am enjoying finishing up painting the army, which even if it gets scrubbed is by far one of the prettiest in the game

Workers Arisen + Seasoned Enforcers isn't bad for a small, Neophyte shooting focused detachment.

Well I didnt have any expectations and I'm glad I didnt. Actually a little funny. First two I read:

1. +to advance and charges. Which would be amazing. But its t1. So useless for deepstrike.
2. Reroll hits of 1s. So the cult icon that half my units can take. Lol...

Am excited for the hive powers though. Helix is sweet.

Edit: sorry, there is indeed a separate strat giving a boost to achilles heavy stubbers. Lol. Why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Devout Worshippers+Innate Fighters and Seasoned Enforcers+Workers Arisen seem ok. Whether the hivecult is better than the latter is...debatable imo.

I dont think the former outweighs the strengths of CTFAE though.

Twisted Helix is a lot better after this imo, lots of advance and charge boosts and their power is one of the better ones.

Achilles ridgerunner units dropping the +1 wound strat is great.

the_scotsman wrote:

Devout Worshippers+Innate Fighters and Seasoned Enforcers+Workers Arisen seem ok. Whether the hivecult is better than the latter is...debatable imo.

I dont think the former outweighs the strengths of CTFAE though.

Run Metamorphs and a Clamavus in a vanguard detachment with that first combination, probably a Magus for the HQ.

shoot has been greatly improved, we can make bubbles of 6" with neophytes Seasoned Enforcers+Workers Arisen, + primus + atalan, for shooting 3+rerolling +1 to wound (only to an objective) and with rusted claw power an aditional -1 rend

but, I don't think it's worth so much investment ..

where is that aberrant unit with heavy mining weapons?

The Raking Fire strategem for Ridgerunners isn't terrible if you take them in a unit of 3 and have an Alphus buffing them, since they don't split into separate units.

18 S4 hitting on 2 or 3's and wounding on 2/3's against T3/T4 — the lack of AP is a real turnoff though.

With a little support, it might help clear a 5-man unit of Infiltrators turn 1, which would be nice. Taking a full unit also synergizes well with Overcharged Weaponry to give the 3-9 Mining Laser shots +1 to wound.

If they're Hivecult, then Chilling Efficiency can boost the stubbers to hit on 2's and the lasers to hit on 2's or 3's if they moved.

This strategem would be really nice if Ridgerunners ever get access to Cult Creeds, but I'll agree that at the moment, we probably have better stuff to spend the CP on.

I have been trying out my GSC army for a couple of games and it is has been going pretty bad. I know I am going to lose a bunch of games as I figure out what I am doing, but I wanted to get some ideas on some things.

For my next game I am thinking about of Double Battalion plus an Outrider detachment all Rusted Claw for 1500 point games. I am going with 3 detachments to fit all my HQs as well as the CPs. I would go Brigade, but I don't have any heavy weapon squad models (mortars) yet. Anyways, here is the list.

Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Magus (1 familiar), Iconward
Troop: Neophytes x10 (Heavy Stubber x2), Neophytes (Grenade Launcher x2), Neophytes (no special weapons)
Elites: Kellermorph (Oppressor's Bane), Clamavus

Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Abominant (Amulet of the Voidwyrm), Magus (1 Familiar)
Troop: Acolytes x5 (Bone Sword, Heavy Rock Saw x2, Icon) Acolytes x5 (Bone Sword, Hand Flamer x4), Acolytes x5 (Hand Flamer x4)
Elites: Aberrants x5 (Improvised Weapon, Power Pick x4), Aberrants x5 (Power Hammer)

Outrider Detachment:
HQ: Jackal Alphus
Fast Attack: Atalan Jackals x4 (Shotguns and Demo Charges), Atalan Jackals x4 (Shotguns and Demo Charges), Ridgerunner (Flares and Mining Laser)

If I am right that is 14 CP, -1 CP for Grandsire's Gifts, I believe (been away from 40k for a while and super confused what is and isn't the rules anymore).

A good portion of this list is dictated my the model collection which is still rather limited. Although, I do have most Characters (I just don't have the Sanctus). I have been holding back on putting my Patriarch in my army until the model is fully painted. So in the meantime, I am just making due without him.

I play in a marine heavy meta. Lots of games against Dark Angels and Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons are giving me much more trouble than anything else. My Cult Creed is practically worthless since most of their weapons are AP -2 (I am not the kinda of player to change my subfaction for more power though). Additionally, their teleport is tough since I have been going heavy on Deep Striking which leaves me vulnerable to not creating as much Deep Strike Denial as I would like as well as making me worry about early tabling before my Deep Strikers can even make it on the table. As it stands, I have been tabled turn 3 all my games.

My previous plans have involved using the Kellermorph to snipe his Sorcerer, my bikes to blow up his Daemon Prince, Occult Terminators and/or Ahriman. I also wouldn't mind using Laying in Wait to unleash my Hand Flamer Acolytes on his Deep Strike denial/objective holding cultists (20 congo lined all along the back of his deployment zone). My Neopyhtes (which I am now starting to go without much special/heavy weapons) are my back line Deep Strike denial/objective holders. My Abominant and Power Pick Abberants (probably backed up with the Clamavus) are intended for one of the TS's two squads of 10 Rubrics. I also am going to go with two Magus units to hopefully cut down on the amount of spells the Thousand Sons. I don't have much of a plan for my Ridgerunner (try and blow up a one of the two Predators maybe?) nor the Acolytes.

Even with all of this, I do kinda think that Thousand Sons are a hard counter to my army. Most of their weapons just have to wound to remove my models, while having a really good Save or an Invulnerable Save versus my attacks. There isn't a whole more that I am aware of to get charges off being 9" away which pretty much has to be the case either from Deep Strike or to avoid Warp Flamers.

So any kinda of advise to maybe help the games be less of a blow out. I expect to lose every game with GSC, but I would like to play a game where picking/rolling a mission is more than a formality as I am going to have about 10% of my army at the start of Round 3.

Your trying to run a glass cannon army based on synergies with a random bunch of models against strong armies that are still good when they bring a random bunch of models.
Your going to have a bad time and with your collection its unlikely to get much better.

Neophytes without the tools that make them acceptable, Mining Lasers, are just more expensive worse guardsmen.

5man Acolyte units are a joke. Your a glass cannon. You need to kill what you touch because your an expensive guardsman and any return attacks are going to demolish you.

Aberrants, some deal. They have more damage then 5 Acolytes but even so its probably not enough most of the time. And the points increase in CA wasn't kind to them.

You can't run 2 battalions with this so don't bother trying, consolidate the Acolytes into 1 unit and use a Vanguard for your Aberrants. Switch a Magus for a Primus, you want the combat buffs. Get your Patriarch ready asap. He is a combat monster and you also really want his fearless bubble. If you don't have mining lasers for your Neophytes consider just running them as Brood Brothers so your atleast saving some points. The loss of cult creed doesn't matter because the units as is are not a treat to the enemy anyway. He won't care if they are a little bit more survivable.
The problem your having with 9" charges is why you so often see then in a 4AE detachment, having a 7" re-rollable charge (Clamavus + Iconward with Vigilus detachment) is pretty reliable.

ps.
Brigades are a trap, your wasting points trying to fill sub optimal slots (FA/HS). Just run 2 Battalions instead of stuff that is actually good.

You got a good assembly of stuff to tackle Marines there Saturmorn. Assuming that you don't have a lot else in your collection, my main suggestions would be this:

Change both Battalions to Cult of the Cult of the 4 Armed Emperor.

Doing so will increase your chance of getting into your opponent, and lets you save points by dropping the Clamavus, or keep it for even more likely charges. The Warlord Trait should also be crucial for you in starting the game with more command points. You'll also gain access to the counter-spell stratagem. Use this to counter things like half-damage on a Dreadnaught when fighting the Abominant, or Trans-Human Physiology in the same situation. The new PA book will help your two Magus' a LOT.

I should mention that my GSC army is a Kill Team that grew into an army so I have a lot of.. let's say eclectic weapons.

@Ordana

I know that Neophytes are mechanically worst brood brothers. Thinking about it, I could probably borrow the regular guardsmen from my IG Kill Team (the models don't look as nice though). Additionally, at the moment I only have two of each Neophyte heavy weapon (Kill Team's influence). For Codex Compliant marines, I found the Mining Lasers are great, but versus Thousand Sons there is a good chance they are going to bounce off their spell buffed Invul save when they do hit. I found the Seismic Cannon underperforming, but found the heavy stubber worked okay in a volume of fire sort of way. I do have a Start Collecting on the way and have been debating with going with more mining lasers or heavy stubbers. I am leaning toward heavy stubbers to both save points and have a few more weapons with more range than 24".

I am also aware that minimum man Acolyte squads is probably a bad idea. Again, Kill Team has given me a pair of all the rock weapons and demo charges but left me with few regular cultists and currently only one icon Acolyte. I can pretty easily build two 10+ Acolyte squads, but that's about it. Again, the Start Collecting is probably going to net me a couple more rock saws and definitely a couple Icons (I plan on converting the Iconward into a regular Acolyte). At the same time, 1500 points burn fast even with GSC. I found in my last game CPs went fast and left me swingin' in the wind when I ran out. Granted, I was blowing through mostly to play with as many stratagems as I could to see how they work.

Your assessment of the Abberants is spot on. They did the most work, but really weren't all that much. I kinda regret not picking of ten more when I could get them for less than $20.

I suppose I can go back to a single Battalion with a Vanguard and Outrider detachment.



@Yarium

Very good advice. If I fine that my list is still woefully underpowered I can keep the outrider as Rusted Claw while switching the other two to Four-Armed Emperor. However, I really don't want to do that has it is pretty well established in my group that my models are Rusted Claw, painted closest to their colors, and I really like the lore best for them. Funny enough, I am not super concerned with Loyalist marines. My last game against the Dark Angels had me fighting pretty close to what my infantry heavy Primaris army would be sans the Dark Angel stuff like Azrael. I mostly just have to think how do I beat my own space marine army if it more heavily relied on its Chapter Master and Ancient. I do think I have the tools to accomplish that. I just need more practice with my GSC to better know how much force I need to apply where.

Well, if you can't can't your list, and you can't change your cult, you have to just use what you have better. And there's not much we can do with it over the internet - situations are too unique in real life. Bombs are good for killing vehicles, since it's okay if you sometimes roll bad, so not as good at killing Marines. If you can, get some Guard - Tank Commanders help a ton for providing some consistent firepower pressure.

I've wanted to start a GSC army for an age, to be specific a mechanised force with some DS elements. Something like 6 goliaths, cog neophytes with mining lasers, a blob of 6 ridgerunners, and maybe 4AE acolytes jumping out and making 7" reroll charges after the Goliath has moved.

This kind of build seems to have gotten a lot stronger now, with ridgerunners getting serious love, and being a great target for the new Cog 6++/5+++.

What do you all think? Should I be sensible and save my money? Is a 12+ vehicle list a pipe dream?

For curiosity, could you see a custom trait combination for an infantry list working that is:

Armour piercing and seasoned enforcers?.

How would you go about building a list to take maximum advantage of that.

On the last two posts.

I don't think armour piercing is worth it. Or at least I'm not sure it is versus arisen miners or whatever the reroll mining weapons trait is called. Ap-1 is a nice buff. But you have to be in 12" with a basic autogun - and its still BS 4+, S3 base.

To which the cry goes up - just DS them in. Okay, sure. But you have to have something starting on the table. Now you can potentially go with a Tyranid detachment to sort you out on this - and I can't really comment on that - but in a pure GSC I don't think there are great options if you are sticking meaningful volumes of Neophytes into DS.

Its very one-dimensional, but the perk of Neophytes seems to be cheap(ish) mining lasers. You are paying 12 points while other people are paying 20 or 25 for anther 12" range. With ignoring the moving penalty, you have a respectable effective range.

I also think you want two special weapons. Webbers are very cheap for the power boost, grenade launchers have a bit of utility. (There is probably maths showing krak grenades are a mugs game, but I think they can be useful even if I might favour webbers.)

So once you do all that, your 10 neophytes only have 6 autoguns. Do you want the -1 AP on them, or the ability to reroll the hits on the lasers? (Or other heavy weapons, which are not terrible point for point). You probably want the rerolls. Or throw this all in, take bladed cog and get a 6++ save? With an Iconward a 6++/6+++ sequence is good at shrugging off effective firepower for a 5 point model.

On the trucks. I sort of want Goliaths to be worth it, but I'm not sure they really are. 2 Autocannons and a heavy stubber is probably a fair amount of shooting for the points - but the penalty for moving is terrible with base BS4+.

I've been thinking about a list with about 6 trucks+neophytes, plus 9 ridgerunners, and then either another couple of squads in trucks, or some acolyte blobs, a unit of Aberrants etc. (I think a sniper Sanctus is a bit of a non brainer take for instance.) Really though its hard to argue you wouldn't be better served with say 12 squads of neophytes rather than 6 in the trucks. Maybe ditch the ridgerunners too and just go with the Ork approach of "can you kill this many bodies".

But if money is an issue with buying 12+ vehicles, its also an issue with buying hundreds of neophytes/acolytes.

 grouchoben wrote:
I've wanted to start a GSC army for an age, to be specific a mechanised force with some DS elements. Something like 6 goliaths, cog neophytes with mining lasers, a blob of 6 ridgerunners, and maybe 4AE acolytes jumping out and making 7" reroll charges after the Goliath has moved.

This kind of build seems to have gotten a lot stronger now, with ridgerunners getting serious love, and being a great target for the new Cog 6++/5+++.

What do you all think? Should I be sensible and save my money? Is a 12+ vehicle list a pipe dream?

I keep mulling it over, and I keep coming up that a mechanized GSC army is still probably going to be a lesser mechanized Imperial Guard one. I have also toyed with the idea of having Goliath Trucks as mobile bunkers for mining laser and grenade launcher neophytes. In part that kinda helps solve my 'just survive until Round 2 issue' I am having. At the same time, even with Rugged Construction/Flares I don't know if they are going survive for very long as GSC vehicles aren't particularly tough and don't have the buffs that IG army could give them to make them a whole lot better.

I am still working out the effectiveness of Ridgerunners. I only have the one at the moment with a second on the way (and probably a third in a few months). Funnily enough, I haven't found the speed all that useful, I am also a little concerned that this unit is going to see a nerf (I am bit paranoid about it being in SC selling good and getting changed) even if it is only okay. However, I do think at the moment it is a good amount of firepower and survivability for its cost. I am considering them more and more as part of my Round 1 survival plan.

I have seen a fairly mechanized GSC army do well (like 4 trucks). However, it was on a very terrain dense table where it was difficult for the opposing player to get much more 1/3 to 1/2 their firepower on just about anything. Plus, the opponent (Space Marines) was running a heavily infantry/biker list with little heavy infantry/light armor weapons. I am still very much working out how to get Genestealer Cults working though. So I don't know if anything I said is all that accurate. In a few weeks time I hope to get in a game with a couple of trucks and ridgerunners, once I have the models built/painted) to get a better idea of what they can accomplish.

I picked up the Greater Good book yesterday and will be updating the main post with our new stuff over the next couple days as my schedule allows.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:I have been trying out my GSC army for a couple of games and it is has been going pretty bad. I know I am going to lose a bunch of games as I figure out what I am doing, but I wanted to get some ideas on some things.

To add on to what has already been mentioned, you have a lot of points tied up in characters relative to the total points available (about 1/3rd). The characters are quite good, but a lot of their effectiveness is tied into what units they enhance, so having fewer units limits how much good they can do for you. I know in your case it is more out of necessity given that is what you have, but I would suggest trimming back to just the bare minimum you need for the list and reinvesting those points into your other units (possibly add another squad or two).

Also given that you are locked in with Rusted Claw, you may want to consider taking Wolfquads with Mining Lasers instead of running the Jackals as bomb squads. That would give you two extra heavy weapons on the table to support the Ridgerunner and free up some command points for your other ambushers (bombs are very CP costly to use).

grouchoben wrote:I've wanted to start a GSC army for an age, to be specific a mechanized force with some DS elements. Something like 6 goliaths, cog neophytes with mining lasers, a blob of 6 ridgerunners, and maybe 4AE acolytes jumping out and making 7" reroll charges after the Goliath has moved.

There was an interesting list on page 5 you might want to take a look at. They had 3 Ridgerunners and a clutch of Russes instead, but it had a similar design.

I had considered doing something similar with Pauper Princes grunts in Hivecult vehicles, but when I double checked the unit entries I found out that vehicles are creed locked for what they can transport, so unfortunately one can't have 4AE troops inside a Bladed Cog vehicle or vice versa.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:I have been trying out my GSC army for a couple of games and it is has been going pretty bad. I know I am going to lose a bunch of games as I figure out what I am doing, but I wanted to get some ideas on some things.

To add on to what has already been mentioned, you have a lot of points tied up in characters relative to the total points available (about 1/3rd). The characters are quite good, but a lot of their effectiveness is tied into what units they enhance, so having fewer units limits how much good they can do for you. I know in your case it is more out of necessity given that is what you have, but I would suggest trimming back to just the bare minimum you need for the list and reinvesting those points into your other units (possibly add another squad or two).

Also given that you are locked in with Rusted Claw, you may want to consider taking Wolfquads with Mining Lasers instead of running the Jackals as bomb squads. That would give you two extra heavy weapons on the table to support the Ridgerunner and free up some command points for your other ambushers (bombs are very CP costly to use).

I have added more to my army since those initial posts. I am still probably lacking Neopytes and maybe even still Acolytes, but it isn't as bad now.

I have a couple of Neophytes x10 (2 Mining Lasers, 2 Grenade Launchers), Acolytes x10 (Bonesword, 4 saws, Icon), and a up to a Acolyte x15 (Hand Flamers). Plus another 20 Neoplytes mostly with shotguns and non-laser, grenade launcher weapons and 5-10 acolytes with a random assortment of weapons. Not as optimized squads as the stuff in the first sentence, but still more bodies.

I am also up to 15 Jackals and was already thinking of only making use of 1 demo charge bomb and having the other two be more like regular Fast Attack units. I also have two Ridgerunners also adding to the dramatically increased amount of lasers in my army. Lastly, I have picked up a couple Goliath Trucks. I honestly don't think two is enough to make them useful, but at the same time, my meta is actually kinda low on anti-tank, even lighter stuff like them. I mostly got them because I like the models and they would work great for Kill Team terrain. However, I do want to try using them as mobile bunkers for my mining laser and grenade launcher Neophytes and see if they also help me weather Round 1 better. I am thinking between the trucks, ridgerunners and maybe some bikers, I shouldn't have to worry about potentially being tabled before my deep strikers come in.

When I get caught up on my painting (progress in the Spoiler) and my hobby fund recover, I probably will get another Start Collecting. I kinda want to finally start building Metamorphs, but I suspect I am still going to need more Acolytes. I think I am also going to want more bikers, but I want to play a few more games before making that call.

All in all, I trying to go with bigger sized squads. My Patriarch is mostly painted so it can be added to my playable army now. The unfortunate thing is I think my group is moving back up to 2000 points.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Plus another 20 Neoplytes mostly with shotguns and non-laser, grenade launcher weapons and 5-10 acolytes with a random assortment of weapons. Not as optimized squads as the stuff in the first sentence, but still more bodies.

Shotgun Neophytes are actually rather nice as a bodyguard squad for a Kelermorph. They don't need special or heavy weapons so they can be run cheap and they like ambushing to start closer to the opponent to trigger S4 shots. The assault type is also situationally useful. I have won a few games where a squad was able to advance onto an objective and kill just enough models in the subsequent shooting phase to claim it.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Lastly, I have picked up a couple Goliath Trucks. I honestly don't think two is enough to make them useful, but at the same time, my meta is actually kinda low on anti-tank, even lighter stuff like them. I mostly got them because I like the models and they would work great for Kill Team terrain. However, I do want to try using them as mobile bunkers for my mining laser and grenade launcher Neophytes and see if they also help me weather Round 1 better. I am thinking between the trucks, ridgerunners and maybe some bikers, I shouldn't have to worry about potentially being tabled before my deep strikers come in.

I think between the Ridgerunners and the Rockgrinder you should have enough hulls to at least hold the table down until your ambushers arrive. Having the bikes also helps, since they help draw away some of the mid-strength shooting that might otherwise be directed at the lighter vehicles.

As a tidbit regarding using the Goliaths as mobile bunkers, remember that the wording on Open Topped is such that the +1 to hit from an Alphus indirectly benefits any Neophytes riding inside as well (since they are affected by any + or - modifiers that are affecting the Truck).

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I kinda want to finally start building Metamorphs, but I suspect I am still going to need more Acolytes. I think I am also going to want more bikers, but I want to play a few more games before making that call.

I'd be inclined to agree, it would give you a bit more build freedom for filling out troops. It isn't a bad idea from the perspective of eventually building Metamorphs either. My biggest complaint with the kit is that they only give duplicates of Metamorph Talons (Lictor-looking one and Warrior-looking one) and the rest are singles which makes building a coherent squad rough if you don't have spares left over from building the kit as Acolyte hybrids.


Also nice picture! I like the desaturated pallet you used for your flesh tones on your hybrids.

So I tried a nid force based on warriors and zoathropes (leviathan for max durability) and a batallion with 6*10 neophyte squads with mining lasers and the traits Workers Arisen + Seasoned Enforcers.
Last sunday against a very comp CW maxed out council on bike + maxed out spears + 3 CHs + rangers and the usual characters.

Honestly bladed cog will do more for staying power, and that type of list can only win on objectives so...

I think it is a trop, because you gain a little lascan hits to lose on what really matters ATM

I think bladed cog neo spam with one or two 20 stron aco squads is the way to go currently, with or without a kronos spearhead (hive guards, exo and biovores).

To sum things up, bring 150 models at the least, or die trying something else

I kinda think that pair of traits would probably work better with Seismic Cannons than the Mining Lasers. More dice gives more opportunities for rerolls and the close range profile is better suited for dealing with MEQ models. I'm currently thinking that the custom creeds are probably going to be limited to small support detachments (such as an Armor Piercing Ammo detachment or Devoted Worshipers vanguard detachment) to cover certain niches that the main creeds can't do. Allies are probably going to be better off with one of the mainline creeds due to the overall deeper toolbox that they offer.

I'm not sure if I agree that swarm lists are the best way to run GSC at the moment. Most of my experience with them have had issues with how relatively static such lists are and you don't have much ability to dictate engagements because of it. The current meta also has a more balanced distribution of anti-armor and anti-infantry (or in some cases even a slant towards anti-infantry) so you aren't getting as much efficiency from a swarm of 1-wound models as in the past.

Not to say that the proposed Bladed Cog build isn't a good one, just I'd caution against calling it the only viable build.

After few games of total rubbish and inevitable tablings I finally started to get a grip of the cult. Army full of special rules and buffs etc wasn't excatly a pleasure to play while recovering from a stroke.

I lost interest in matched play so yesterday we played Blitz narrative mission. Following worked okayish:

Double battalion, Bladed Cog.

Primus, magos, abominant, iconward

10xneophyte, 2 mining laser, 2gl. 16xneophyte, 2 flamers, shotguns
15xacolytes,icon, saw. 15xacolyte, 2 saws.
3x10 Brood brothers. 1gl.

Kelermorph, 5 pick aberrants,hypermorph w hi, clamavus, 8 purestrain.
Ridgerunner w.ml, chimera w. Bolter,flamer,stubber.
Hws w. Ml,lascannon,h.bolter.

My idea was to give my opponent (Sisters & Grey Knights) too much bodies to kill and sustained assault guaranteed some degree of recycling. But in normal game this list would've seen me almost tabled again. I hate painting larger vehicles so guess I'm gonna buy more ridgerunners, some atalans and more neophytes. And stick to narrative, avoid losing in rules jungle called matched play.

Ferryman wrote:
After few games of total rubbish and inevitable tablings I finally started to get a grip of the cult. Army full of special rules and buffs etc wasn't exactly a pleasure to play while recovering from a stroke.

I understand this a lot. After 3 brain surgeries I started playing table top games. It was major tough to play any army that was complicated, but my doctor actually recommended playing games like 40k as part of my rehab!

Its possibly heresy most foul, but looking at theoretical GSC lists I feel a lot of people are stuck trying to make units function which don't work.
Money/time/painting limitations - but I'd like to try something like this:

Alphus 1
Ridgerunners 3
Ridgerunners 3
Ridgerunners 3

Icon Ward 1
Alphus 1
Acolytes 20
Acolytes 20
Acolytes 20

Icon Ward 1
Alphus 1
Acolytes 20
Acolytes 20
Acolytes 20
Clamavus 1
Sanctus 1

With upgrades this can get you to 2000 points.

Or swap out one unit of acolytes, upgrade two to Metamorphs, and take 3 units of Neophytes or Broodbrothers to complete the second batallion. Then mess about with item upgrades to taste.

My basic theory (tl/dr) is that most stuff we have is overcosted and everyone sort of knows this, but a lot of lists seem to try and just shrug it off.

1. The Patriarch isn't worth it. You can tune him up with attacking warlord traits and relics, but really he's just a bit meh versus so many tougher targets - be it because they have multiple wounds, or invuls, or rerolling 5s to wound often fails. The fact he buffs Genestealers, a unit you are never taking, also feels like wasted points. A flying Tzeentch Deamon Prince costs 70 points more - but I feel you get so much more on the table for it.
2. The Magus is massively overcosted given a Primaris Psyker is 46 points. There is no way you are worth more than about 55-60. Arguably spending an extra CP to get 2 spell casts maybe makes 1 okay, but... eh. I feel psychic is one of these things where you have quite a bit, or nothing.
3. A single Primus might be worthwhile but... eh. Its a lot of points for a buffbot that is probably helping one or two critical charge. I feel GSC is all about charges connecting, not generating massive overkill when you get there. If things go badly he never overperforms.
4. Super super gross heresy - but I'm not sure Aberrants are worth it at their higher cost. They are certainly powerful (especially when buffed up) - but I feel the return you need from them introduces a high failure rate. If you can't wrap and trap they will also tend to just get shot off the table by most competitive armies. The Biophagus just represents throwing more points at this risk without doing anything to mitigate it. (In the grand scheme its not that many points but...)
I see a lot of people go 10 Abs+abominant+primus+clamavus+Patriach for about 570~ points and you really need that to click to justify the expense. If you kill an expensive knight okay - but too often you will just massively overkill a few hundred points and then get shot off the table. Imo anyway.
5. This goes double for the Abominant, who I think is too weak on his own base stats. Its a great buff, and on his own he has high potential but also a high failure rate.
6. The Kelermorph is conceptually cool, but very rarely pays his own way once opponents know he can appear. I think lots of snipers perform better - and its harder for your opponent to deal with (beyond their own sniping actions).

It might be worth ditching the Ridgerunners, but I think the massed mining lasers provide a bit of utility over just spamming acolytes and metamorphs everywhere. Mainly because acolytes sitting on the table at the outset seem a bit bad - although there is a potential opportunity for a turn 1 charge for one unit now if you roll well. Neophytes are the obvious alternative - along with maybe some mortar blobs even at their higher points because non-LOS shooting is useful. Not sure though.

But yeah - basically I think the list needs to be all boyz and no toyz, sort of how most Ork lists have evolved. The problem is buying 100+ Acolytes seems like a crazy thing to do when they come in boxes of 5. Getting 40 together has been hard. Not sure what other people are thinking.

Tyel wrote:

The Patriarch isn't worth it. You can tune him up with attacking warlord traits and relics, but really he's just a bit meh versus so many tougher targets - be it because they have multiple wounds, or invuls, or rerolling 5s to wound often fails. The fact he buffs Genestealers, a unit you are never taking, also feels like wasted points. A flying Tzeentch Deamon Prince costs 70 points more - but I feel you get so much more on the table for it.

I suppose as a counter point, I don't think most people are using Patriarchs for can opening so much as (heavy) infantry shredding on a fairly mobile platform. They do consistently perform against most infantry targets between their innate accuracy, volume of attacks (for a single model) and rerolls to wound. His average threat range is fairly similar (12'' vs 8 + D6) if you discount Warp Time for double moving (though to be fair, the Patriarch can drop in via Ambush - Princes can't as far as I recall).

Moral immunity and counter charge potential are also helpful for Neophyte and Jackal heavy builds as well.

Tyel wrote:

2. The Magus is massively overcosted given a Primaris Psyker is 46 points. There is no way you are worth more than about 55-60. Arguably spending an extra CP to get 2 spell casts maybe makes 1 okay, but... eh. I feel psychic is one of these things where you have quite a bit, or nothing.

I'd be inclined to agree that the Magus should probably come down a bit, but I think he can be justified in lists by virtue of how important Mass Hypnosis is to have on hand against certain units and some of the new Creed powers are fairly strong too. I have also found his Spiritual Leader bubble is fairly helpful in the Grey Knight and Thousand Suns matchups where many powers are offensive in nature. He generally gets 1-2 extra deny attempts per turn in those match-ups whenever I have brought him.

Tyel wrote:

4. Super super gross heresy - but I'm not sure Aberrants are worth it at their higher cost. They are certainly powerful (especially when buffed up) - but I feel the return you need from them introduces a high failure rate. If you can't wrap and trap they will also tend to just get shot off the table by most competitive armies. The Biophagus just represents throwing more points at this risk without doing anything to mitigate it. (In the grand scheme its not that many points but...)

Post chapter-approved I think this is fairly accurate, unfortunately.

Tyel wrote:

6. The Kelermorph is conceptually cool, but very rarely pays his own way once opponents know he can appear. I think lots of snipers perform better - and its harder for your opponent to deal with (beyond their own sniping actions).

Same as above. I think he was good in certain matchups at his old cost but he is too pricy now.

Tyel wrote:

It might be worth ditching the Ridgerunners, but I think the massed mining lasers provide a bit of utility over just spamming acolytes and metamorphs everywhere. Mainly because acolytes sitting on the table at the outset seem a bit bad - although there is a potential opportunity for a turn 1 charge for one unit now if you roll well. Neophytes are the obvious alternative - along with maybe some mortar blobs even at their higher points because non-LOS shooting is useful. Not sure though.

I don't know. Since chapter approved dropped I've been including one squadron of 3 in all of my lists (even otherwise foot/ambush heavy lists like yours) and they have consistently been one of my best performing units. Squadrons have enough stubber shots to thin out hordes while having enough mining laser shots to threaten vehicles and heavy infantry effectively.

As far as your list goes, I see what your thought processes are and while I like the idea I'm not sure how well it will do. From what I have seen competitively, the Orks are only generally bringing 1-2 large mobs of Boys for deep-striking and the rest of their troops are filled out with cheap Grots. Admittedly, your list has the advantage in that you have multiple feel no pain nodes, higher speed (especially with Twisted Helix), and arguably better fire support than Orks have access to.

On a related tangent, I'm curious if including a single Heavy Rock Cutter in Acolyte squads might not be a bad idea. In my meta I've been seeing an uptick in monstrous creatures and 3+ wound infantry, which is where the Rock Cutters start to look more appealing than Rock Saws (good odds of 1-shotting a model per wound instead of needed 2 wounds).

Also I will endeavor to get the main post fully updated tomorrow. I've been busy with midterms and haven't had much free time as a result.

Magus and Patriarch are the two best models in the dex. They are the first two inclusions in any GSC list. There is no reason not to.

1) your misunderstanding the importance of the Patriarch. He isn't primarily there to be a combat monster. He is a fearless bubble first and foremost that is additionally ok in combat and can cast powers (which GSC has 2 very good ones that you want to cast pretty much every turn after the first (Mass Hypnosis and Might from Beyond).
Without Patriarchs your 20 man units are almost twice as easy to remove since I can kill 10 out of 20 and Moral will take out enough extra models that the unit is neutered.

2)I agree the Magus is to expensive for what he does and should come down ~20 points. Think GW values his deny aura for some reason when its mostly pointless unless your playing against GK's.

3)Plenty of tough units around, especially with marines resurgent, that I don't think going to 2+ rr1 from 3+ rr1 is overkill. And that is before you count in the wound re-roll to take out a big threat. Considering the amount of HQs your bringing in a GSC list there is room for him.

4&5)not heresy at all. Since the point increase in CA lots of people have dropping their Abberants and many were not a fan of Abominants to begin with. I think his only real place was in a Pauper Prince list where he could get 3++

6)again especially since CA yes he isn't worth it. Outside of perhaps a Neophyte spam list where he can give a rr1. But then why are you playing GSC instead of an actual shooting army.

As for your list, this is basically my argument for Primus. You have 3 Alphus. You have no need for 3. For the cost of 1 Acolyte you get the force multiplication of a Primus.
For a couple of Acolytes you get a Patriarch and the fearless bubble.
Mass snipers isn't that amazing with what your giving up for them, they simply don't threaten non-GEQ characters enough.
Also there is the issue of space on the board for 120 Acolytes, I would expect you run into problems of finding room for them where you want to strike.

I find this forum doesn't do quoting well - but thanks for the responses all.

I'm interested in how much people value the Patriarch for the fearless bubble. I'll admit this is something I had discounted. I just find acolytes die so easily they usually get wiped, while you can break out auto-pass morale if they do say leave 10 alive. I guess the argument is that you can end up with just a few left (potentially holding rock saws) but then I think they are too vulnerable to overwatch to do much good. I've not found that the sort of "kill 10 in multiple units" has really come up. This might just be me though. I'm sort of thinking you could bring that morale immunity, or have a whole extra squad of acolytes there instead.

Really though this is probably inaccurate - because its the Patriach versus another HQ choice. So really its only 55 points - but thats still quite a bit.

On the melee abilities, I just have found it a bit lacklustre. Yes he eats chaff - but killing 35~ points for 125 is no great achievement. Against monsters/vehicles he can easily fail to do very much. Against characters with solid invuls he's temperamental - and this unfortunately goes for basic (Ironhand) Marines who get multiple chances to dilute the damage. Say he kills three intercessors - its nice, but nothing spectacular for the points and he risks just being killed next turn for quite a chunk of points.

The psychic point (sort of including the Magus) is reasonable, but I'm still not totally convinced.

So with mass hypnosis - yes, its powerful. But if you use it on a unit you are going to charge and hopefully destroy, is it worth the points versus just having more bodies? Okay you ignore overwatch - but if you could have just had another 10-20 acolytes on hand does that matter? The hypnotised unit shouldn't hit back because they are dead. I guess the argument is you use this on the counter-charging unit you couldn't connect with this turn. I can't really disagree there, its potentially a massive swing. I can see the argument that for 10 points over an Alphus this makes a magus a better choice, even if the model is overcosted in itself (although the stratagem exists).

On the other hand I'm not so sure on might from beyond. The concentration of damage is undoubtedly nice and useful but the other way to have more attacks is just to have more guys by saving points. Which also in turn means more stuff your opponent has to kill. The extra strength is an odd one - as there are multiple ways to get strength through the codex. Making Acolytes S5 is a solid boost against most armies (in one way or another) so I tend to think Twisted Helix is the way to go. But you could get it from this and the relic banner, maybe allowing for 4 armed emperor. But some of your units are going to be base S4 in that scenario, which feels suboptimal.

Basically I guess I'm trying to explore if doing something other than the near auto-take broodcoven is rational. Arguably it isn't. I mean I've taken 3 Alphus partly because I love the model, but really its not all that good. I have to consider that I'm only saving 70 points on the broodcoven. Arguably the Alphus is overcosted itself - if she could be down to say 50 points I'm not convinced people would be screaming overpowered, given she has about the same offensive potential as a 21 point eliminator. At the same time a bit like psychic I feel sniping is something that adds up if you have enough - even on tough characters. The ability to throw something on pyskers who end up on 1 wound after the Sanctus shoots them for instance is useful. With 4 (potentially 5 in turn one) sniper shots, you are reasonably likely to get a mortal and one of them through a turn, chipping away at even tougher characters.

So I'm not as convinced as I was on those HQs - but eh.

Also agree that putting 120 acolytes down is likely to be difficult on the table. I was sort of looking at things like Jeff Poole's LVO list - which has 115 boyz, 50 grots, 15 tankbustas and a load of characters. I feel its very much a "can you kill this many bodies before you get swamped" - which is the same aim here. Potentially though they get more utility from weird boyz, shokk attack guns and tankbustas than I would from those characters and the ridgerunners.

I don't think Twisted Helix is something you can do with a list like what your considering. You have to many units coming in at the same time for Perfect Ambush to cover it so your depending on 9" charges and then you 'need' the +2 from Clamavus + 4AE and the Broodsurge Deliverance iconward trait to make them reliable.

Failing charges as GSC is a very fast way to lose games.

Patriarch is the best caster in the dex. For starters his powers are basically free since the rest of his gak already covers his cost. Secondly he’s the LD10, or even 11,12 if you want it, caster for Mental Onslaught - something that can just have silly amounts of impact and you should be always trying to roll the dice on. Thirdly, he’s a great holder for the Crouchling since he has some form of resiliency and doesn’t just get sniped off the table without a serious commitment to doing so. And of course, he’s mobile so you can get your Mind Control where it’s needed.

I put Mass Hypnosis on the Magus. I often don’t even bother wth Might, I’ll prefer a second Mind Control holder lol.