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Yes. The flamers are pistols. Which mean they are 10d6 auto hitting in melee range too.

Also I have 9.... because I love the model. I need another to paint it red. For the fire truck.

Question, is there something that speaks against building Brigades for GSC?

I did build that.

I was running more then 6 troops. I took

Elites: Kellemorph, 2 units of hybrids with lash whip and hand flamers.

Fast Attack: 3 units of 2 ridge runners.

Heavy: 3 units of mortars.

HQs and troops.

That list had big problems going second. And I was completely defeated by my opponent running 2 dakkajets. Each one ate one squad each turn.

Hybrids performed better then expected.

I think you are better off loosing 2 CP by taking a patrol.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Question, is there something that speaks against building Brigades for GSC?

Basically the heavy support slot for the most part isn't all that great, and GSC still kind of benefit a lot from bringing 2 subfactions (having a patrol to bring in some CTFAE to have Plan in your pocket and drop a few cheapo acolyte squads around the board who are pretty good at getting into CC without support)

I find myself running bat+patrol way more often than brigade. 5 man CTFAE hand flamer acolyte squads are an excellent mix of cheap enough to be objective/secondary grabbers and threatening enough to pose a credible threat.

Also, GSC can have some big, expensive units, it is not actually all that hard to fit everything you need into those 3 slots. A 10-man neophyte squad with 2 heavies and a truck is like 150ish total, a 20-block of acolytes is a lot, and you can squadron up your ridgerunners as well for 1 fast attack slot.

 Niiai wrote:
I did build that.

I was running more then 6 troops. I took

Elites: Kellemorph, 2 units of hybrids with lash whip and hand flamers.

Fast Attack: 3 units of 2 ridge runners.

Heavy: 3 units of mortars.

HQs and troops.

That list had big problems going second. And I was completely defeated by my opponent running 2 dakkajets. Each one ate one squad each turn.

Hybrids performed better then expected.

I think you are better off loosing 2 CP by taking a patrol.

TBF, from the understanding of the GSC list loosing out on going first and not being able to secure the first strike will always make it fold more or less regardless of how you really built the list. Or atleast that is my perception of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Question, is there something that speaks against building Brigades for GSC?

Basically the heavy support slot for the most part isn't all that great, and GSC still kind of benefit a lot from bringing 2 subfactions (having a patrol to bring in some CTFAE to have Plan in your pocket and drop a few cheapo acolyte squads around the board who are pretty good at getting into CC without support)

I find myself running bat+patrol way more often than brigade. 5 man CTFAE hand flamer acolyte squads are an excellent mix of cheap enough to be objective/secondary grabbers and threatening enough to pose a credible threat.

Also, GSC can have some big, expensive units, it is not actually all that hard to fit everything you need into those 3 slots. A 10-man neophyte squad with 2 heavies and a truck is like 150ish total, a 20-block of acolytes is a lot, and you can squadron up your ridgerunners as well for 1 fast attack slot.

Yeah, thought so, albeit i like the option for having a armored feint via cult ambush shenanigans on leman russes i agree that the heavy slot looks, well, bit overpriced, also the smaller boards don't help in regards to the strategies you could employ, tending to blob in the middle in 9th even more... (not that normal leman russes are any better, also whoever thought once again that a bc is 5pts and the big turret mounted ac should be 15 pts should at this stage consider a diffrent career other then ruleswriting.)

I am a bit torn on the trucks personally.

I usually end up bringing trucks full of las neos because while they're not necessarily as efficient as ridgerunners, if I only take the units I own that are currently decent for GSC I end up running out of minis at 1200pts...so I wind up bringing 20-blocks of shotgun neos with flamers and laser neos in trucks just because they perform semi-decently and you gotta put SOMETHING in the 2k list.

Often I end up keeping it simple and running just one battalion super troops-heavy in bladed cog.

All my melee acolytes in a big block of 20 with 3 saws and 1 cutter

Magus with the crouchling bringing the 5+FNP and Might from Beyond, along with a Clamavus to help boost my T2 charge

Jackal Alphus with single minded obsession to try and make sure the ridgerunners kill a big target turn 1

4 ridgerunners, 2 goliath trucks with laser neophytes

And then the objective grabbin' crew with 5 man hand flamer acolyte squads, 20 man shotgun neophyte squad using Lying in Wait, Locus, Kelermorph, Nexos.

The biggest problem atm is I don't know any way to avoid having to field a lot of worthless anti-GEQ firepower because GEQ just don't fething exist anywhere. I wish I didn't have to bring 40 heavy stubber shots and 80 lasgun shots that will just pointlessly ping off the invincible fething power armor that is and has been 100% of the lists I've played against the past year and a half.

If we had any effective anti-MEQ weapons at all I'd probably use them, but I've tried seismic cannons so many times and they're just pathetically bad and utterly suicidal.

I did ask about seismic cannons and somebody compared it to just taking 3 Neophytes and Neophytes came out very comparable.

I think our best MEQ units are melee acolytes. Saws are good. But VS T5 3 wound people say the cutters a good. Perhaps have them in transports so you can charge from transports? Say some CP on a perfect ambush.

Ridge runners and alphas are good. It is just the rest of the building blocks are hard to balance.

 Niiai wrote:
I did ask about seismic cannons and somebody compared it to just taking 3 Neophytes and Neophytes came out very comparable.

I think our best MEQ units are melee acolytes. Saws are good. But VS T5 3 wound people say the cutters a good. Perhaps have them in transports so you can charge from transports? Say some CP on a perfect ambush.

Ridge runners and alphas are good. It is just the rest of the building blocks are hard to balance.

I'm fine with perfect ambushing tbh, small price to pay for a 300ish point cc unit to get into combat almost guaranteed.

I often find myself fielding melee sanctus, kelermorph and locus as anti-MEQ units to be honest. Helen Keler being a reliable means to whack a 5-man marine squad is almost enough to make me want to bring a second detachment just to get 2 of each of 'em.

the_scotsman wrote:
I usually end up bringing trucks full of las neos because while they're not necessarily as efficient as ridgerunners, if I only take the units I own that are currently decent for GSC I end up running out of minis at 1200pts...so I wind up bringing 20-blocks of shotgun neos with flamers and laser neos in trucks just because they perform semi-decently and you gotta put SOMETHING in the 2k list.

Often I end up keeping it simple and running just one battalion super troops-heavy in bladed cog.

All my melee acolytes in a big block of 20 with 3 saws and 1 cutter

Magus with the crouchling bringing the 5+FNP and Might from Beyond, along with a Clamavus to help boost my T2 charge

Jackal Alphus with single minded obsession to try and make sure the ridgerunners kill a big target turn 1

4 ridgerunners, 2 goliath trucks with laser neophytes

And then the objective grabbin' crew with 5 man hand flamer acolyte squads, 20 man shotgun neophyte squad using Lying in Wait, Locus, Kelermorph, Nexos.

The biggest problem atm is I don't know any way to avoid having to field a lot of worthless anti-GEQ firepower because GEQ just don't fething exist anywhere. I wish I didn't have to bring 40 heavy stubber shots and 80 lasgun shots that will just pointlessly ping off the invincible fething power armor that is and has been 100% of the lists I've played against the past year and a half.

If we had any effective anti-MEQ weapons at all I'd probably use them, but I've tried seismic cannons so many times and they're just pathetically bad and utterly suicidal.

The seismics at 10ppm seem kinda decent but i feel it overpays for what GW percieves as generalist therefore better, i do think though if you deepstrike a squad it might be worth it to have but so long the better mode is only available at half range so long there's no reason to bother more then once with them...

I do think PG are missing in the list as an option beyond brood brothers, and paying 6 ppm for a 5.5 ppm model with worse synergy feels like a ripoff so the classic allround solution for PEQ is also out...

and the marine issue is in casual a bit on the unbearable side right now, that said, melee acolythes tend to be something i did kinda fear with my horde csm list because ap-1 and a lot of attacks = a lot of dead CSM but 2 w marines? not scared. PEQification of MEQ will make this even worse i think, and AP-1 being handed out like candy on astartes weapons (which csm get because csm use a lot of the same weapons) will make GEQ even less enticing.

10 point for seismic cannon and 6 points for the model, 16 points.

3 models is 18 points. Shoots almost as well and is a whole lot more durable.

yeah, 2 pts more for tripple the durability...
...

I blame the wounding chart partially. And the longer 8th and 9th go on the more i blame it as an issue,.

 Niiai wrote:
10 point for seismic cannon and 6 points for the model, 16 points.

3 models is 18 points. Shoots almost as well and is a whole lot more durable.

1 Seismic cannon in half range is 3x s5 ap-2 d2 shots isn't it? That's .665 unsaved wounds vs new astartes vs .332 unsaved wounds from 3 autogun neos in rapid. So it is roughly twice as efficient pointswise to grab a seismic as it is to put in extra autoguns.

The problem is the unit as a whole is just kind of meh shooting MEQs. Assuming 20pt meqs a double seismic squad deals 2.21 unsaved wounds on average, which is a 27% points return. hand Flamer acolytes are close in terms of efficiency, and become way more efficient if you do end up making the charge roll - though that does generally turn them into a suicide unit, as the three remaining meqs in the squad effortlessly butcher the 5...close combat specialist melee troops.... you know, like they do.

i guess the neophytes have 10 bodies as opposed to 5, but an intercessor has 22% points efficiency shooting into neophytes, and 40% if they both shoot and charge.

"I get a 27% points return against you and then you get a 40% points return against me" ain't it for an "Anti-you specialist" unit build.

I'm almost wondering - and to be clear I have not yet tried this at all - whether melee character spam might be the answer to MEQ-spam armies being the overwhelming norm in the current meta. The ridgerunner is efficient killing tanks, but people aren't bringing tanks to the table atm, they're bringing multiwound MEQs. The most abundant, efficient sources of damage flat 2 and flat 3 that we have access to are mounted on our characters - Patriarchs, Loci, Kelermorphs, Knife Sancti, etc.

Patriarch: 135pts, 3.88 killed MEQ in melee on average, 57% return, takes 1w on average from the remaining 2 MEQ.
5-man 2 saw-colytes: 52pts, 3 killed MEQ in melee on average, takes 2.4 casualties in return from the remaining 2 MEQ, 68% return on average.
5-man pick aberrants with pick sergeant: 150pts, 4.9 MEQ killed on average, no return swing to deal with, 66% points return (assuming you roll perfect 2s with the picks, which is not how it works - if you assume the sergeant survives because of the forces of Murphy's Law, the aberrants take 0.74 wounds in return and only get a 53% points return)
Kelermorph: 2.29 dead MEQs in shooting on average, 53.3% return, no return swing on your turn.
Locus: 1.6 dead MEQs in melee on average, 70% return, 4 remaining squad members kill the locus on the return swing.
Sanctus: 2.05 dead MEQs in melee on average, remaining 3 squad members kill the sanctus on the return swing.
Metamorphs LOL why not: 5 Whip/Flamer/Claw Metamorphs kill 1 MEQ in shooting and 1.79 in melee, takes 2.4 casualties from the remaining 2 MEQ, 68% return on average - hey, they're the same as sawcolytes but they're a bit more reliable because they can't be CC interrupted and they don't deal 95% of their damage just in melee, that's kind of interesting. They also have the 1cp violence unleashed stratagem which is kind of good - it's just a shame that they can't be taken as a 20-man squad or else you might be able to make an argument that they're good competition for a 20-man sawcolyte squad as a deathball.

hmmm.

So it seems like single sancti and loci are efficient on offense, and also come with the nice benefits of being easier to hide around the board being single models instead of 5 models, but they completely die if just one of them gets into combat with an average 5-man MEQ squad alone with no backup vs the saw-colytes who merely mostly die.

Abberrants...actually might be a worthwhile option as a deathball over 20 acolytes with 8 saws and a cult icon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
gang, this seems like an absolutely ridiculous question to be asking, but have we been maybe sleeping on Aberrants in Helix?

hear me out: the struggle with GSC that I've been running into is running out of steam. I have my big ball of nasty lascannon business with my Ridgerunners and my Neophyte squads with 2x mining lasers in goliaths, and I have my Single Minded Obsession Alphus and that's kind of Battle Group A. Main goal: Pick a target for single minded and nuke the crap out of it turn 1, ideally something that can threaten infantry to make it more obnoxious for my opponent to successfully respond to battle group B.

Battle group B is a 20-block of acolytes with 8x special melee weapons, an icon, and at bare minimum an accompanying magus to try and cast MFB and Vigor. Usually I'll leave their buffers at that, I just use A Perfect Ambush to get them in, hopefully pop overthrow the oppressors (lets be real lol my opponents being imperium is like a 99% chance of being good) and then carve up a big chunk of an opponent's army on one objective.

The problem I'm running into is that once I kill the target marked by Obsession and do my big punch, my opponent still has enough gas in the tank to table me around turn 4/5 and because all their units aren't made of wet paper towels it's easier for them to deny me scoring than it is for me to deny them scoring.

it costs about 120 points more in battlegroup B to bring a biophagus with familiar and make the punchy squad a 10-man of aberrants, BUT you don't need the magus since they already have a 5+FNP, you can use a Patriarch with the +1 damage warlord trait to cast MFB on the lumpy lads.

Instead of having vans full of autogun+mining laser neophytes, you can have vans full of hand flamer+saw Acolytes, who can either clear screening chaff turn 1 or attempt a Twisted Helix advance+Charge stratagem.

The name of the game would be sustainable threat - you've got the patriarch, you've got +1S mini-characters like the locus, you've got trucks full of acolytes. Thoughts? Is losing the mining lasers out of the trucks a big deal breaker?

5x 8 pts for acolythes and 20 for two saws that's 70 PP/s

Also abberants at 30 ppm just don't Look nice, (even through khorne eyes , also d3 pick damage ....)

Not Online!!! wrote:
5x 8 pts for acolythes and 20 for two saws that's 70 PP/s

Also abberants at 30 ppm just don't Look nice, (even through khorne eyes , also d3 pick damage ....)

5x8 is...40, right? And 40+20 is 60? Am I going insane and not able to math anymore?

I mean the thing with the acolytes vs the aberrants is just that it feels like the aberrants bring a lot to the table for the point differential vs 20 acos and 8 specials+cult icon. 250 vs 300pts, baseline the acolytes do more damage but the aberrants are naturally quite a bit tougher, do have the ability to bring a double attack to town in twisted helix, and have a few more benefits like 1/2 the table footprint (meaning easier to place in deep strike, easier to have everyone fight in the fight phase) and access to a pretty cheap permanent buffer guy in the Biophagus who has 2 pretty great buffs in +1T and +1A.

I compare who I'd take to buff both of them, and for the acolytes it's a Primus and a Magus, and for the Aberrants its an Abominant and a Biophagus...I feel like I'd rather have the latter than the former, I can give the Abominant the elixir of the prime specimen and he can actually fight unlike the primus can, and I just use the Patriarch to cast Might from Beyond because in TH I'm definitely going to want a patriarch with the +1D warlord trait goodness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example list to give an idea of what I'm considering:

Twisted Helix Battalion

HQ: Patriarch, might from beyond, warlord trait +1 Damage on his claws
HQ: Abominant, Prime Specimen relic
HQ: Jackal Alphus

Troops: 10x Acolytes, 3 saws 1 cutter
Troops: 10x Acolytes, 3 saws 1 cutter
Troops: 10x Acolytes, 2 drills 2 saws
Troops: 5x Acolytes, 5x hand flamers
Troops: 5x Acolytes, 5x hand flamers

Elites: 10x Aberrants, 7 picks, 2 Hammers, Improvised hypermorph (what I have models for)
Elites: Biophagus with a familiar
Elites: Kelermorph
Elites: Locus

Fast: 4x Mining laser/flare Ridgerunners
Fast: 4x Jackals, shotguns and knives, quad with a shotgun and incinerator
Fast: 4x Jackals, shotguns and knives, quad with a shotgun and incinerator

Dedicated: 3x Goliaths

I look at this, I compare with my usual Bladed Cog setup, and I think...this looks good, this looks threatening. I've got the same number of mobile and scoring elements, but I've got more for my opponent to consider, I'm not just a pushover turn 1, every acolyte squad has the threat range of 11"+D6"+charge out of their truck thanks to genetic legacy and they're base T5 with their claws and S9 with their heavy melee weapons. What do I give up? gakky neophyte squads that never did anything for me anyway. i've still got plenty of +1 to hit mining laser and autocannon shots to bring something down T1.

But if my opponent plays dumb or goes first and pushes up I can shove a squad of acolytes into his face turn 1 with MFB. And turn 2 even if they clear the aberrants you've got a buffed up ogreman to deal with still, and a Patriarch, and a couple trucks full of rude dudes.it's not just the one bomb and then hope you can use shooty stuff to skate through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sidebar: thank god for 3d printers I can have so many freaking acolytes now. I found a file just for legs and torso and I was able to make every single spare acolyte bit I own into a dude.

Na, i messed up and misunderstood something.

The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.

but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Na, i messed up and misunderstood something.

The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.

but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.

The way I look at it, my bomb unit of 20 acos is 250pts, 20 wounds, T3, 5+ armor. thaaaaaaaaaaaats it. If I run them in cog it's a 6++ as well.

Aberrants are T4 base, sometimes T5 depending on how you roll with the biophagus, 20 wounds, 5+ armor, 5+FNP, and -1 damage if you throw multidamage weaponry at them. They have a stratagem to be only targetable if they're the closest unit, and a stratagem to boost up to a 4+FNP.

They're more expensive by 50pts, and they are less effective offensively if they don't get the +1A from the biophagus, but if they get a really sweet roll on perfect ambush and get the perfect multicharge off they can decide to pile and fight twice.

Ogryn Brutes don't deep strike, don't have any stratagems and though I haven't actually done the math I suspect T5 W3 5+ is acutally worse durability than T4 W2 5+ 5+++ against most weaponry.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Na, i messed up and misunderstood something.

The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.

but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.

The way I look at it, my bomb unit of 20 acos is 250pts, 20 wounds, T3, 5+ armor. thaaaaaaaaaaaats it. If I run them in cog it's a 6++ as well.

Aberrants are T4 base, sometimes T5 depending on how you roll with the biophagus, 20 wounds, 5+ armor, 5+FNP, and -1 damage if you throw multidamage weaponry at them. They have a stratagem to be only targetable if they're the closest unit, and a stratagem to boost up to a 4+FNP.

They're more expensive by 50pts, and they are less effective offensively if they don't get the +1A from the biophagus, but if they get a really sweet roll on perfect ambush and get the perfect multicharge off they can decide to pile and fight twice.

Ogryn Brutes don't deep strike, don't have any stratagems and though I haven't actually done the math I suspect T5 W3 5+ is acutally worse durability than T4 W2 5+ 5+++ against most weaponry.

Grav chute insertionis the answer, guaranteed D2 is imo important and T5 W3 is a generally more annoying profile if stuck in.

That said you are of course right in regards to why brutes are not used.
I just don't see these baseline as compelling enough to consider either though.
I do think though that there's the option for either helix or bladed cog.

Another take is,to just play the annoying game i think. 30 are a non issue, 50 of these start to get annoying, but what if you field say 80? 90? that's still comparatively cheap and with the inante deepstrike if you treat it just like an extended deployment zone might well be worth a consideration.
MSU Neophytes, some deep struck, arround an iconward with the +3 to aura trait? 5+/6++/6+++ isn't that shaby durability wise for a 6ppm model and you can stock up on mining lasers still

There is nothing that prevents me from taking a flaming chimera in an army without brood brothers, is there?

Nope. Just the regular 1 dedicated transport per infantry unit.

I'm right there with this abberrant thinking, I've been looking at if bladed cog abberants have place in a linebreaker/repair teleport homer/pierce the veil/maybe a wwswf sdvondary lineup.

Stick em with a biophagus and iconward under bladed cog and you can get t5, 6++, 4+++ rerolling 1s and they can screen characters and tank for a lurk in the shadow msu acolyte squad/magus performing actions.

Thats a durable unit hanging out in the opponents back line and will draw a hell of a lot of fire away from our more fragile elements rushing forward.

That’s still not that durable though. And it’s a helluva investment in points, CP and character slots.

Biophagus, minimum squad of aberrants and an iconward costs like 240pts for ten pretty durable wounds and some decent melee output. Doesn’t sound worth

4+++ rerolling 1s is a reduction of 58% of all incoming damage. Add in the -1d and there's no reliably good weapon profiles to shoot at these things (even a melta at half range averages 1.9 damage).

I'm looking at going all the way a running the 435 point, 10 model unit + iconward + biophagus + familiar.

C4790M wrote:
That’s still not that durable though. And it’s a helluva investment in points, CP and character slots.

Biophagus, minimum squad of aberrants and an iconward costs like 240pts for ten pretty durable wounds and some decent melee output. Doesn’t sound worth

IMO, there are two tacks you can take when looking at how to take advantage of GSC armywide deep strike.

Path 1 would be to go for the easy +2" to charge via the CTFAE and Clamavus, and do kind of a scattershot approach - min size units, minimum investment, accept that 58% will get in and 42% won't

Path 2 is to have a buffed-up 'bomb unit' that is a maxed-out squad that you're committing to using strats, psychic powers, etc on to make it capable of dealing a ton of damage and hopefully offsetting the inevitable tempo loss that GSC suffer from being basically forced into deep striking their melee units.

I've had basically no success with path 1 in 9th. the smaller board size and proliferation of anti-DS abilities strats etc have made that vastly too easy to counter. Honestly, I haven't done it since we got swapped to regular DS instead of the random table of pain in the 8th codex.

So I'm not really comparing 5 aberrants to..whatever equivalent points of acolytes/metamorphs/I guess purestrains or something lmao - I'm comparing 10 aberrants plus buffers and considering strats/psychic powers to 20 acolytes to 10 metamorphs.

10 aberrants are the most expensive bomb unit (310pts minimum because I think the hypermorph has to have a hammer?) but they also have buffers that are useful outside of the buff they'll be giving the bomb (abominant/patriarch instead of magus because you don't need 2 powers to fully buff them as they already have 5+FNP) 20 Acolytes with all the bells and whistles are cheaper at 250 but the Primus and Magus I typically stick them with are just sunk cost, they do basically nothing after I use them to buff the bomb - one of the primus' two abilities literally expires after the bomb obliterates the target unit.

Metamorphs I don't think have teeth purely because of the unit cap of 10. however, whipmorphs do have the edge use case of bringing in alongside the bomb unit turn 2 because they don't have the usual vulnerability to 2CP interruption.

I've also tried using allied patrol of tyranids with a maxed-out block of 20 genestealers with the "ignore AP-1 and AP-2" biomorph, extended carapaces, Jormungandr and a broodlord casting Catalyst, which is...actually interesting. Kind of a fun pairing with a super shooting heavy list because unlike the other bomb options, they actually start on the board, and just kind of roll up, maybe start doing the action that forces units to move into the center of the board to stop it.

I am confused, atleast in the german dex i am not forced to field an hypermorph, but can "upgrade" 1/5 into one. Mind upgrade is ridicoulus considering the price of the stopsign / hammer.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am confused, atleast in the german dex i am not forced to field an hypermorph, but can "upgrade" 1/5 into one. Mind upgrade is ridicoulus considering the price of the stopsign / hammer.

5pt upgrade to go from:

2A S5 AP-2 Dd3
2A S5 AP-1 d1 (w/rend)

to

3A S10 Ap-3 D3
1A S5 AP-1 D1

Seems like a complete no-brainer to me. I'd always run a hammer hyper if I was running aberrants.

Even the stop sign....eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh maybe my brain is totally melted by sunk cost fallacy but, going from 2 D3d attacks 2 D1d attacks to 6 D3d attacks 1 D1d attack for the cost of 2/3 of a model... kinda...maybe...doesn't seem THAT stupid? Would it be a much more compelling choice at 15pts instead of 20, or at AP-2 instead of AP-1, yes. but it is a way to increase the damage cap of a squad, and it does make MfB and the +1A biophagus upgrade add 2 good quality attacks instead of 1 good and 1 less good quality.

if you're being stingy (and I dont think it ever makes sense to be stingy with aberrants tbh, they're too much of a minimum investment) upgrading the squad to have a sign hypermorph does actually increase their average damage output to the point where they wipe a 5-man MEQ squad unbuffed on average rolls. Adding a 6th squadmember does that as well but is 10pts more expensive and makes them more awkward to put in transports.



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Hammers make little sense (IMO at least) on aberrants as an upgrade because while they do double damage output vs Vehicles/TEQ they vastly reduce damage output vs GEQ/MEQ compared to picks. They're more of a side-grade and unless they get a boost in terms of removing the hit penalty or letting them keep the claw attacks like the picks do they don't make sense. But +5pts to get the hammer AND get an extra attack+tail attack with it does make sense.

Ran a successful first test run of the "Ridgerunners not Neophytes, Aberrants not Acolytes" setup of my list.

Played against Space Marines, Ultramarines chapter tactics. Opposing list had Bolt Rifle intercessors as troops, 2 squads of Eliminators, a plasma primaris dreadnought, 2 squads of plasma inceptors in deep strike with a second jump pack captain, a big squad of flamer aggressors, bladeguard veterans and a judicator in an inceptor? that's not right, the little brick. Captain and Lieutenant with the troops, and 2 squads of eradicators.

I had 3 "turn 1 threat" troops of 10 acolytes with 4 heavy melee weapons each in Goliaths, a unit of 4 ridgerunners and a jackal alphus. A deep strike bomb squad of 10 aberrants, biophagus with familiar, abominant and a patriarch with might from beyond (who was planning on starting on the board) and then scoring units of 2 hand flamer acolyte squads, 2 barebones jackals, a kelermorph and a locus.

I took teleport homer, engage on all fronts, and the mission secondary which was 'surround them' - we played strike force mission 21. My opponent took bring it down, raise banners, and engage on all fronts.

My opponent got first turn but had almost all his anti-tank in deep strike, so only managed to kill 1 truck and not quite kill one acolyte squad. On my turn 1, that acolyte squad got back up almost to full strength, and I killed the dreadnought with all my shooting and advanced and charged an acolyte squad out of a truck with might from beyond to basically wipe out the aggressors. My opponent's deep strike top of turn 2 killed almost all my ridgerunners and the snipers killed my jackal alphus, but I was able to collapse on him with a ton of stuff all at once and use A Perfect Ambush to get the aberrants into the main group of intercessors. By turn 3 I was able to own a whole flank of his board, have my acolyte squads safely chugging away on teleport homer, and though I didn't win huge on points on the board at the end of the game I won like 88 to 25.

Great job! I just had a similar success vs Blood Angels with that same kind of mind-set. Granted, I don't think the Blood Angel list was perfectly optimal (only 4 Sang Guard, included 5 Hellblasters, Relic Sicaran, and Techmarine, no Bladeguard), but I will take that win. Here's the list:

Bladed Cog Battalion
Patriarch (Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation, Psychic Powers: Undying Vigor, Mass Hypnosis) + Familiar
Magus (Broodcoven: Single-Minded Annihilation, The Cult's Psyche, Psychic Powers: Might from Beyond, Psychic Stimulus, Relic: The Crouchling) + Familiar
Primus (Broodcoven: Alien Majesty, The Heart of the Creed)
20 Acolytes w/Hand Flamers, Cult Icon, 6x Rock Saws
20 Acolytes w/Hand Flamers, Cult Icon, 6x Rock Cutters
10 Neophytes w/2 Mining Lasers
10 Neophytes w/2 Mining Lasers
10 Aberrants, 3x Hammers, 2x Heavy Improvised Weapons
3 Ridgerunners w/Heavy Mining Lasers & Flare Launchers
3 Ridgerunners w/Heavy Mining Lasers & Flare Launchers
1 Goliath Rock Truck
1 Goliath Rock Truck

The plan here was simple. Every turn for 3 turns something tries to get into my opponent's face with the benefit of Psychic Stimulus and Might From Beyond. The +2 to cast from the combo of the Cult's Psyche and the Crouchling helps accomplish this. Turn 1, the Ridgerunners and Trucks get the benefit of Single-Minded Annihilation to help clear the way, and later turns get the benefit of a Primus. Ideally, the Primus is choosing the reroll to wound for the Hand Flamers so that they can come down, flame one thing, then charge another using Perfect Ambush.

I found that by reducing the number of units I was fielding, I was also better able to focus my brain on what needed to be where and when. The Trucks could also get a unit of Neophytes to a location for an action, but the Aberrants were all stars. Despite really flubbing turn 1 (failed to get off Might from Beyond, they weren't able to kill a unit off 4 Sang Guards and the accompanying Sang Priest Selfless Healer - just got 2 of them and 3 wounds off the priest), they were able to survive the return hits thanks to the strat to give them a 4+ FnP. This kept my opponent locked in and made sure that when the Acolytes came down, they had more room to choose attack vectors from. Game ended 95 to 45 in my favour! Actually was 35, but he wasn't battle ready, so I'm giving him those 10 points here for a more relevant score.

Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.

the_scotsman wrote:
Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.

Well, Perfect Ambush each time and usually a CP still at the ready for rerolling a failed charge makes failing less likely (66% chance at making the charge if you're committed to a reroll even if you roll a 1 for Perfect Ambush) (though I didn't have that CP on my final turn in the game, making that charge REALLY scary), is certainly a risk - but having less than enough dudes to do things I find is a greater risk. Plus, this was just a single game so far. My next test will be against a pretty dang good Ad Mech player - so we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But also, that's why I want to try and come down, hand flamer one thing under the gaze of the Primus or Magus, and then charge another - so a charge flub should still mean that the unit didn't totally waste its turn.

 Yarium wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.

Well, Perfect Ambush each time and usually a CP still at the ready for rerolling a failed charge makes failing less likely (66% chance at making the charge if you're committed to a reroll even if you roll a 1 for Perfect Ambush) (though I didn't have that CP on my final turn in the game, making that charge REALLY scary), is certainly a risk - but having less than enough dudes to do things I find is a greater risk. Plus, this was just a single game so far. My next test will be against a pretty dang good Ad Mech player - so we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But also, that's why I want to try and come down, hand flamer one thing under the gaze of the Primus or Magus, and then charge another - so a charge flub should still mean that the unit didn't totally waste its turn.

You can't reroll the roll for perfect ambush anymore FYI - the reroll strat strictly defines what you can reroll now. But I guess that makes sense. Just seems like a super tricky list to pilot in 9ths new scoring stucture, which incidentally seems to be something a lot of my opponents are falling for. For example, in this game, my opponent had these huge units of intercessors and aggressors all blocked up to try and take advantage of stratagems and the chapter master reroll for one unit, and he just ended up not able to score stuff, basically. He picked two secondaries just based on them happening semi-automatically (engage and BID) despite them being not particularly efficient to score against my army (his force was slow, and was going to have to rely on force concentration to try and keep safe from my stuff, and so he was only ever really going to be able to score 2 from Engage turn 2+, and BID is just not the auto-win it used to be...my seven vehicles offered him 10 points total, but he still picked it because he just didn't have stuff designed to score points that he could spare to perform actions and junk.)

Just by having a decent, coherent plan to rack some points up, I felt like I was in the position of "welp, as long as you dont' completely obliterate me by turn 3 I think I win."