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What I ran in that battle

Bladed cog

Patriarch (w/ crouchling)
Abominant (w/ 3++ relic)
Primus

2x 10man acolytes w/ hand flamers (1 with 4x cutters, 1 w/ 4x saws)
2x neophytes w/ 2x ml

2x 5man acolytes w/autopistols

4x goliath

clamavus
nexos
10x aberrants
biophagus

3x ridgerunners in 1 squad
2x sentinels (1x lascannon, 1x multilaser)

I know it's not the most optimised list but it was supposed to be a launchpad to tweak from.

We played 4 pillars

I used scanner decoys and the nexos to basically have 2 deployments, one for going first and one for going second, and mathed out to expect to lose 1 goliath, and most of a squad of acolytes.

Instead by my first turn I'd lost 2 goliaths and a ridgerunner to d-cannons, and the acolytes to the remaining fire.

My return fire onto the one d-cannon I could see took of 2 wounds total, with the 4++ and 5+fnp that was put on them.

2nd turn I lost the remaining 2 ridgerunners, my patriarch, and a third goliath.

So bottom of turn 2 i'd lost basically all of my assault and all of my anti-tank. Lost 3 abberants to forewarned, wiped out a single screening unit of dire avengers, and lost the rest top of turn 3, after which I gg'd with 10 acolytes, nexos, clamavus, abominant and the sentinels remaining.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
It's also interesting because you're all (presumably) playing the new 9th edition missions with 9th ed rules.

My dad and I have decided to stick with 8th for the time being (tired of the constant codex expenditure), and I've been running my Genestealer Cult with 8th rules and points to some considerable success - against CSM, Space Wolves and even Iron Hands among others.

Did the 9th points update treat us this harshly? Is it the codex creep of other factions? Or are the core rules/missions making the difference?

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

(9th missions are a major part.

The need to stand on objectives for a turn with what are basically guardsmen is a huge problem.

The importance of scoring from early on while our deepstrike means we are not on the table until t2 and probably not scoring until t3 unless your doing deepstrike charges.

The ability to move out of combat, even when surrounded thanks to a strat.

Power creep in general.
Like we used to rely a lot on hostaging units to stop from getting shot. Now even a basic Primaris has 3 attacks so your going to take to many casualties.

So, presumably you went second? And you set yourself up a separate deployment for if you did go second, that's a good idea.

Probably in future when you set up that second deployment, start your heavy targets outside the range of the D-cannons. Ridgerunners are 36" range and 14" move, and the total threat range of a d-cannon is 30", and even if you're within that you can give them a -1 to hit and force them (probably) to get out from behind Obscuring terrain and move into that terrain to target you.

Since they're not Infantry, the terrain essentially does nothing for them if they're within it rather than behind it. In my "if second turn" deployment I'd place my sentinels within 30" of the guns to attempt to bait them into moving out of Obscuring terrain. No sentinels and can target many D-cannons is a better turn 1 setup than 2 sentinels and can only target 1 D-cannon. Another option if you want to keep him bottled is to start the multilaser sentinel already within range but behind obscuring terrain, in the hopes that he keeps his stuff where it is and just blows that away, rather than going for the move that opens him up more to your firepower.

the timing on forewarned is critical, he has to declare it IMMEDIATELY after a unit deep strikes. If you declare your movement phase over, he can't go back and forewarn against your most recent unit, or a previous unit you've deep striked, and he can't wait until all your stuff is down on the table to use it and pick the best target. If you're in a situation where you don't want to lose models off of a critical bomb squad you can begin dropping less critical units like the 5-man acos and asking "do you want to use forewarned now? Do you want to use forewarned now?" and if he's really stubborn in waiting until the aberrants are down, get the acolytes, clamavus and abominant down and then end your movement phase. Delay the aberrants until turn 3.

In your situation though I don't know how critical it is to have the aberrants at full strength, even 7 of them with the biophagus and abominant is going to carve up basically anything worth attacking in your opponents list, as you experienced obviously.

another thing to consider is: do you actually need those 10-man aco squads in those trucks in this situation? personally, I don't think you do, and I think you're better off dropping them after the abberants take Forewarned on the chin. Splitting your hand flamers and your heavy weapons is strategically a better move IMO, but if you do have them together, you have to realize your flamers are a more important tool in this matchup than your heavies, or your aberrants. a hand flamer acolyte gets a 96% points return against a 4++ dire avenger, without even calculating the 160pts your opponent is putting into having Asurmen on the table, a character who is close to literally worthless except for his capacity to grant a 4++ to DAs. If you can guarantee them a good deep strike in range of 2 squads I'd strongly consider Perfect Ambushing to double shoot them rather than bothering to perfect ambush the aberrants closer.

Your win condition in this situation is to pop off as hard as is possible on his infantry unless he hands you a real perfect opportunity to attack his cannons. if you get first turn, it's probably worth attacking the wraithseer if he was deployed aggressively before he gets defense buffs up, though acolytes can handle him fairly well with buffs and Overththrow, ehs' really just a big threat to aberrants. Otherwise you can probably target a wave serpent to try and get at more infantry.

If you get second turn, like I said either stay out of range of the cannons or give them some bait in the form of the sentinels to get them to try and move out of position.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though it's not as good imo, if you got an opportunity to really style on the D-cannons you could probably also turn that into a win condition with the amount of armor you have on the table. If you did for example bait most of them out of obacuring cover top of t1 youve got enough juice to kill 3-4 of them with your shooting and still put decent hurt into some DAs with stubbers and autoguns.

The problem with baiting out the obscuring was that with quarters deployment and 4 goliaths +3RR I simply couldn't get everything out of range. The support weapons sitting just off the centre of the board had perfectly fine range into my deployment


I wanted to do something new. I guess I'm just a little depressed that the game for us now is just flamer bombs, with as many heavy mining weapons as you can afford. I wanted to try the truck delivery to play in a different way. There's that 120 acolyte list that I tried out for a game. I snuck a win with it against necrons but it's not fun to play. It's the same decision over and over again. But this was over the minute I rolled a 4 to go first rather than a 5, so is that any better.

dammit wrote:
The problem with baiting out the obscuring was that with quarters deployment and 4 goliaths +3RR I simply couldn't get everything out of range. The support weapons sitting just off the centre of the board had perfectly fine range into my deployment


I wanted to do something new. I guess I'm just a little depressed that the game for us now is just flamer bombs, with as many heavy mining weapons as you can afford. I wanted to try the truck delivery to play in a different way. There's that 120 acolyte list that I tried out for a game. I snuck a win with it against necrons but it's not fun to play. It's the same decision over and over again. But this was over the minute I rolled a 4 to go first rather than a 5, so is that any better.

oh - I mean in this map you do have the option of just flat-out turn 1 charging I suppose if he's going to be that aggressive with his D-cannons. Sorry - I was operating off the assumption you were on one of the 5 maps with 24" or more of no-mans land. If his entire army is literally 100% in-your-face 18" away and you've got ambush blips, absolutely you should abuse that fact and give him a 50-50 chance of eating 100% of your melee units turn 1, no question about it.

Start your sentinels on the board to scout them up 9" to screen the Wraithseer away from the trucks, put the neos in deep strike and fill 2 trucks with 10 acos, 1 truck with 10 aberrants, and 1 truck with 5x aberrants, clam and abominant. All the trucks can deploy sitting outside your Dz and with the charge buff from the clamavus you can absolutely blitz in an a ton of stuff pretty much immediately.

If you go second, you can decide instead to deep strike everything valuable (the 10x aco flamer squads and the aberrrant squads and supporting characters) and try to direct him to target the trucks containing 5x acolytes by placing them aggressively near the center of the board.

You've actually got quite a few options with this list. I really don't think you're as limited as you think you are. You can win by targeting his infantry exclusively and saccing your anti-tank, you can win by targeting his cannons and saccing your infantry, and you can threaten a hyper-aggressive deployment in order to push his cannons back during deployment.

If he sees this map setup, and you start just PILING blips up right front and center on the deployment line, and he still puts his cannons down right in the middle of the board...well, let's just say the first time you win the roll for first turn he won't be doing that again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to start talking about list optimizations we can talk about list optimizations, I think there's some room for your list to get better, but I also think you have tactical solutions to this problem, with the list you have this game is winnable, even with the turn 1 state of 2 goliaths+1 ridgerunner destroyed - which you're entirely right, is EXTREMELY unlucky with the 6 d-cannons I'm estimating would be in the list.

It really was a 2 hour coin flip huh. Cheers, makes me feel better

dammit wrote:
It really was a 2 hour coin flip huh. Cheers, makes me feel better

Literally the opposite of what I just said, but if it makes you feel better, that's cool.

then I've completely misunderstood your point and you'll need to elaborate.

dammit wrote:
then I've completely misunderstood your point and you'll need to elaborate.

You deploy via blips, and you have enough extra blips that you can have an 'if I go first' and an 'if I go second' deployment. AND you can choose which units start off the board and on the board via "shrodinger's transports" - you don't actually have to decide who's in reserves or who's in the transports until you reveal blips.

Assume he's got an absolutely perfect position for his d-cannons - they're both right up on the deployment line, so there's nowhere to hide, and they're screened from all sides, and they're behind obscuring terrain so you can't attack them from your DZ very well. All that granted, that means your win condition in this is going to be "kill stuff that threatens infantry, mostly ignoring cannons unless it's literally free to pile into them and shut them up". If I'm understanding his setup correctly, he's got like a spiritseer casting protect on either a wraithseer or a D-cannon, and he's got Asurmen buffing the DAs, then he's got basically D-cannons, Dire Avengers, and 2 wave serpents presumably armed with anti-infantry weaponry and full of shadow specters.

You deploy 4 blips and your sentinels on the board right on your deployment edge, and the rest of your blips farther back. start with the aggressive blips and the sentinels. Assume your opponent still goes for the exact setup with the cannons right on the deployment line, rather than pushing them back.

Roll off to see who goes first. If you win, you scout the sentinels 9" forward, deploy 4 trucks 1" over the line into no-man's land (as discussed, you can do that via blip deployment) and those 4 trucks contain your 10-man acolyte squads, your aberrants, and your supporting characters. Your opponent is indescribably fethed, you get turn 1 charges with literally everything and you even have sentinels to deny overwatch.

If you lose, deploy 2 trucks on (but not over) the deployment line and put 5 unarmed acolytes in each truck. The other two trucks have neophytes in them, the aberrants and acolytes are off the board in deep strike. If you can, try to put the trucks containing neophytes behind Dense cover since they're your best pieces on the board, and you want to encourage your opponent to target the Sentinels and Acolyte Trucks if you can.

Math says 6 d-cannons should kill approximately 2 goliath trucks, so you can assume you'll lose both acolyte trucks most likely. You focus all your antitank fire on the wave serpents because those have infantry in them, and all your anti-infantry fire on dire avengers. You should kill approximately 1 wave serpent and 10 DAs with your firepower on the board. Charge a sentinel into a squad of specters if you can to tie them up.

Turn 2, assume you'll lose the neophyte trucks to the combined firepower, maybe also one of the ridgerunners. Eat Forewarned to the face with aberrants (assume you lose 3 as you said before) and A Perfect Ambush in the aberrants. On average with a clamavus 1 of the 2 10-man acolyte squads will make it into combat, and so will the aberrants. Assume each acolyte squad can kill 1 DA squad or 1 Specter squad with shooting, and the aberrants and the 10-man that got in can kill either the wraithseer (with help from the remaining mining lasers) or a squad of DAs in melee.

End of turn 2 you can have 50 DAs or 40 DAs and 5 Specters in the ground, depending on the board position. Your opponent probably has 1-2 squads that are threatening to infantry left on the board, assuming you were only able to kill 1 of the 2 serpents and he hasn't gotten the other specter squad out of the serpent. That's a winnable board position for you to be in going into turn 3.

Is it great? No, it's probably less than a 50% chance of a win, and it's dependent on a few factors and can swing on a few factors. Maybe he gets unlucky and doesn't manage to kill both goliaths turn 1, in which case you've got an extra piece to play with an be annoying with. Maybe he gets lucky as he did in your game and manages to take out both trucks and a ridgerunner, in which case you are in trouble and may not manage to kill a serpent. On this particular map, with this particular deployment from your opponent where he goes hyper hyper aggressive with the cannons, you've got close to a 100% chance of a win if you go first, and less than 50% if you go second and play optimally.

I understand it can be frustrating to try and play into a situation where you don't have an amazing chance of winning - and this absolutely is that - but my point to take home here is: even in that suboptimal situation, you did make your chances somewhat worse by selecting the Cannons as your desired target and regarding the infantry as 'screens' when in reality the infantry should have been your primary target. Also, i'm guessing the strategic option of going flat-out for a turn 1 charge if you went first didn't occur to you, because it isn't obvious from your army setup that the aberrants and crew can be swapped into the trucsk and the trucks can be deployed over the line.

the_scotsman wrote:
You deploy via blips, and you have enough extra blips that you can have an 'if I go first' and an 'if I go second' deployment. AND you can choose which units start off the board and on the board via "shrodinger's transports" - you don't actually have to decide who's in reserves or who's in the transports until you reveal blips.
...
Also, i'm guessing the strategic option of going flat-out for a turn 1 charge if you went first didn't occur to you, because it isn't obvious from your army setup that the aberrants and crew can be swapped into the trucsk and the trucks can be deployed over the line.

That's not true though.

10. DECLARE RESERVES AND TRANSPORTS
These missions use the Strategic Reserves rules.

Both players now secretly note down on their army roster which of the units in their army will start the battle in Strategic Reserves, which of their units will start the battle in a location other than the battlefield (if a player has access to any Stratagems that enable them to set up units from their army in a location other than the battlefield, they must use such Stratagems now), and which of their units will start the battle embarked within TRANSPORT models (they must declare what units are embarked on what model). When both players have done so, they declare their selections to their opponent.

If you set up a TRANSPORT model in ambush, you must still tell your opponent what units are embarked within it when it is set up in ambush

ah, mb - that rule works differently than I thought then.

In that case, I'd probably start the aberrants in a truck on the board and 1 of the 10 acolyte squads, and start a neophyte squad off the board.

Lying in Wait deploy the neophytes right next to cannons/dire avengers and you'll probably bait out Forewarned with that, especially if you up their firepower a little bit with a couple flamers.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
It's also interesting because you're all (presumably) playing the new 9th edition missions with 9th ed rules.

My dad and I have decided to stick with 8th for the time being (tired of the constant codex expenditure), and I've been running my Genestealer Cult with 8th rules and points to some considerable success - against CSM, Space Wolves and even Iron Hands among others.

Did the 9th points update treat us this harshly? Is it the codex creep of other factions? Or are the core rules/missions making the difference?

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

It's more the change to the missions. GSC Codex was designed to take advantage of the intricacies of 8th edition, and the codex was amazingly designed with it in mind - points costs, abilities, CP costs, etc. Most other armies were more designed to be more generally good, and so moving to 9th didn't mean as much. We were designed to be good specifically in regards to the missions of 8th, where usually we just needed to tag an objective rather than actually holding it, and just kill something rather than remove a whole front. We are very good at the former, very poor at the latter, and the latter is how armies in 9th edition interact.

GSC lists get way, way better (still not great, but way better) if you bring a kronos nids patrol with a neurothrope, a unit if 5-6 hive guard, and your choice of an exocrine or some zoanthropes depending on whether you want more MEQ killing or more defense + MW output (and 3 rippers for 36 points to satisfy the troops). The GSC book really doesn't work well on its own in 9th; the lack of any unit that can hold an objective means you really need that no-LOS shooting to give you a threat that can't be easily neutralized and that requires your opponent to take the initiative, to give you a chance to then punish them. If you do want to see success with the faction before the new codex (and that could easily be a year or more from now with how things are going), it's probably the easiest way to get some strength into your list.

To hold objectives "perhaps" we will get the genestealer 5++ on all our infantry (BCog rerolling 1s or something). You read it here first no need to thank me

yukishiro1 wrote:
GSC lists get way, way better (still not great, but way better) if you bring a kronos nids patrol with a neurothrope, a unit if 5-6 hive guard, and your choice of an exocrine or some zoanthropes depending on whether you want more MEQ killing or more defense + MW output (and 3 rippers for 36 points to satisfy the troops). The GSC book really doesn't work well on its own in 9th; the lack of any unit that can hold an objective means you really need that no-LOS shooting to give you a threat that can't be easily neutralized and that requires your opponent to take the initiative, to give you a chance to then punish them. If you do want to see success with the faction before the new codex (and that could easily be a year or more from now with how things are going), it's probably the easiest way to get some strength into your list.

Yeah, and then the list becomes EVEN better by not bothering with the GSC at all and just bringing some Dimachaeron to become a decent contender for top spots.

 addnid wrote:
To hold objectives "perhaps" we will get the genestealer 5++ on all our infantry (BCog rerolling 1s or something). You read it here first no need to thank me

I mean, honestly, I have no idea why GSC infantry is as flimsy as it is. Acolytes are absolutely huge to be T3 5+. with marines cleared out of W1 town, they could easily bump up acolytes to T4 4+ and aberrants to T5 W2 5+.

why not instead represent their clothing better with armour plating for works with a general SV 4+?

Alternatively why not tie into that better genetical material with T5 / 4 for the whole faction bar broodbrothers indeed?

yukishiro1 wrote:
GSC lists get way, way better (still not great, but way better) if you bring a kronos nids patrol with a neurothrope, a unit if 5-6 hive guard, and your choice of an exocrine or some zoanthropes depending on whether you want more MEQ killing or more defense + MW output (and 3 rippers for 36 points to satisfy the troops). The GSC book really doesn't work well on its own in 9th; the lack of any unit that can hold an objective means you really need that no-LOS shooting to give you a threat that can't be easily neutralized and that requires your opponent to take the initiative, to give you a chance to then punish them. If you do want to see success with the faction before the new codex (and that could easily be a year or more from now with how things are going), it's probably the easiest way to get some strength into your list.

Absolute true. I call this the "Bio Bug Detachment", just like how Guard had their Loyal 32 for a time. Anyone going to a tourney that isn't trying to make a name for themselves as mono-GSC should absolutely consider this detachment in their list.

However, if you do go the mixed GSC & Bug route, I believe it's far more effective to take a mostly Nid list with GSC backup rather than the other way around. GSC can do some amazing charges from deep strike with proper support, and the only thing holding them back is CP and not having a strong core in their own home zone. In this case, I'd recommend a minimalistic Cot4AE Patrol with Primus and Acolytes w/Rock Saws to just go in and make mincemeat of 1 unit with no other support necessary.

Had another successful game with my aberrant-based GSC setup. Really loving the flexibility that having multiple melee units on the table is giving me.

I played against a fairly aggressive opposing list:

-Alpha Legion Battalion
-3x10 Cultists
-2x 5-man csm squads with reapers
-Discolord
-Sorceror
-5x chainaxe terminators
-3x oblits

-Iron Warriors heavy detachment
-Daemon prince with a bunch of upgrades (2+ armor that makes him regenerate)
-Defiler with twin HF
-Contemptor with assault cannons+Cyclone
-Maulerfiend

We played a mission with short edge deployment, 5 objectives in a "5 on D6" pattern, with a mission objective that was an action you'd try to take on as many objectives as possible to score points at the end.

Because the action could be done by any model, not just infantry, I decided to take it as I had lots of transports and jackals. I also took Engage and Scramblers.

basically, anything I tried to do with melee units failed this game. Turn 2 I used genetic legacy to get a squad of acolytes into combat with the defiler but failed to kill it by one wound, Aberrants had nowhere good to show up turn 2, then turn 3 they rolled a 1 on perfect ambush and failed the charge with a re-roll, and also on turn 3 I realized I'd set up a situation where I would just hand my opponent a CP interrupt with my 2 remaining acolyte squads and so I decided to just not charge one of them to make my opponent have to shoot them off the board.

But still, just off of how good this list setup is at scoring and denying opponent scoring, I ended up winning 68 to 38. I successfully performed the mission objective on the middle objective and my own 2 home objectives using jackals and transport vehicles for 9pts, I had my 2 5-man squads of acolytes easily do Deploy Scramblers, and just by playing the game I got 12 from engage on all fronts.

the achilles+alphus just kept cracking one key target each turn, slowly getting whittled down to one achilles by the end of the game but still managing to finish off the oblit squad. aberrants flubbed their charge turn 3 but by then my opponent had lost the units that could have been the biggest threat to them, and just had a discolord and daemon prince left with mostly D2 weaponry - they happily lost a couple members to each and then they ate the discolord and the abominant rolled in the next turn to bonk the DP on the nose with the help of the hypermorph and last remaining lumpy boy.

I quite like that we are S4T3 as it makes for an interesting stateline for the game. Very different then others. Although I just wish they did not cost so much because they die like flies. It feels like we are worse guard in some respect.

Also, why only so few of our units benefit from cult creeds is very weard.

But you can't make the mounted come to Mohammed, so we just have to strip it for all its resources with the codex we have.

 Yarium wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
GSC lists get way, way better (still not great, but way better) if you bring a kronos nids patrol with a neurothrope, a unit if 5-6 hive guard, and your choice of an exocrine or some zoanthropes depending on whether you want more MEQ killing or more defense + MW output (and 3 rippers for 36 points to satisfy the troops). The GSC book really doesn't work well on its own in 9th; the lack of any unit that can hold an objective means you really need that no-LOS shooting to give you a threat that can't be easily neutralized and that requires your opponent to take the initiative, to give you a chance to then punish them. If you do want to see success with the faction before the new codex (and that could easily be a year or more from now with how things are going), it's probably the easiest way to get some strength into your list.

Absolute true. I call this the "Bio Bug Detachment", just like how Guard had their Loyal 32 for a time. Anyone going to a tourney that isn't trying to make a name for themselves as mono-GSC should absolutely consider this detachment in their list.

However, if you do go the mixed GSC & Bug route, I believe it's far more effective to take a mostly Nid list with GSC backup rather than the other way around. GSC can do some amazing charges from deep strike with proper support, and the only thing holding them back is CP and not having a strong core in their own home zone. In this case, I'd recommend a minimalistic Cot4AE Patrol with Primus and Acolytes w/Rock Saws to just go in and make mincemeat of 1 unit with no other support necessary.

Oh for sure, I'm not saying it's the best Nids superfaction list by a long shot. Just that if you do want to play a mostly GSC army but not feel like you totally suck, it's an easy way to upgrade your army significantly for only the cost of a 500ish point detachment, so you can still have 1500 points of GSC and not feel totally gimped. The non-LOS shooting and the big ranged threat from the exocrine greatly enhances the viability of the GSC core, even if you'd still be better off just taking more real bugs.

Funny you say that. I always felt GSC lasers supplemented my nids better then the other way around. Although shoot twice hive guards are good, I agree on that.

I feel like GSC are good in the shooting department. We good on melee, or can be. I think it is mostly a matter of our units costing to much because they die like flies. I do not mind that. It is a good fun theme for the army. But when we are, in general, having so much trouble winning with GSC there is something wrong.

Shooting good, melee good, but winning is abscent. I suggest points are to exspsnesive. There are some arguing for abberants. Acolytes are OK. Purestrain and metamorphs are just worse versions. Our tanks lack the stratagem IG guard tanks have. And they always take tank commander BTW, not BS4 tanks. (PS try running the numbers on tank commander VS 2 ridge runners, it does not look good for the ringe runner, one of our best units. And the tank commander is not a topp choise.) Our brood brother squad can take 2 flamers/grenades, so that is something, but get no orders.

That is how I feel about it as an explanation for why it is so hard to winn. I would rather not throw salt at it. Instead focus on how fun the army is. Who does not like blips and signposts?

The problem with GSC shooting is the same problem as with the rest of the army, it just dies to a stiff breeze. The game-changing thing about Hive Guard is that because they don't need LOS to shoot, only the rarest of lists is going to have any way to threaten them at range (this is assuming you pay the 1CP for the ignore AP1 and AP2, which neuters virtually all of the non-LOS shooting you commonly see). So this means the opponent has to come at you if they want to deal with them, and that's the only way GSC has play in 9th.

Having something that can output damage without dying totally changes how you play, and it's something completely missing from the GSC book.

 Niiai wrote:
Funny you say that. I always felt GSC lasers supplemented my nids better then the other way around. Although shoot twice hive guards are good, I agree on that.

I feel like GSC are good in the shooting department. We good on melee, or can be. I think it is mostly a matter of our units costing to much because they die like flies. I do not mind that. It is a good fun theme for the army. But when we are, in general, having so much trouble winning with GSC there is something wrong.

Shooting good, melee good, but winning is abscent. I suggest points are to exspsnesive. There are some arguing for abberants. Acolytes are OK. Purestrain and metamorphs are just worse versions. Our tanks lack the stratagem IG guard tanks have. And they always take tank commander BTW, not BS4 tanks. (PS try running the numbers on tank commander VS 2 ridge runners, it does not look good for the ringe runner, one of our best units. And the tank commander is not a topp choise.) Our brood brother squad can take 2 flamers/grenades, so that is something, but get no orders.

That is how I feel about it as an explanation for why it is so hard to winn. I would rather not throw salt at it. Instead focus on how fun the army is. Who does not like blips and signposts?

What are the numbers on a Tank Commander compared to ridge runners? You get 3 ridge runners for just 15 points more than a barebones TC.

canonized wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Funny you say that. I always felt GSC lasers supplemented my nids better then the other way around. Although shoot twice hive guards are good, I agree on that.

I feel like GSC are good in the shooting department. We good on melee, or can be. I think it is mostly a matter of our units costing to much because they die like flies. I do not mind that. It is a good fun theme for the army. But when we are, in general, having so much trouble winning with GSC there is something wrong.

Shooting good, melee good, but winning is abscent. I suggest points are to exspsnesive. There are some arguing for abberants. Acolytes are OK. Purestrain and metamorphs are just worse versions. Our tanks lack the stratagem IG guard tanks have. And they always take tank commander BTW, not BS4 tanks. (PS try running the numbers on tank commander VS 2 ridge runners, it does not look good for the ringe runner, one of our best units. And the tank commander is not a topp choise.) Our brood brother squad can take 2 flamers/grenades, so that is something, but get no orders.

That is how I feel about it as an explanation for why it is so hard to winn. I would rather not throw salt at it. Instead focus on how fun the army is. Who does not like blips and signposts?

What are the numbers on a Tank Commander compared to ridge runners? You get 3 ridge runners for just 15 points more than a barebones TC.

I dunno but I feel like my money is on the 3 ridgerunners tbh.

It’s a bit like comparing apples to oranges, but I’m inclined to agree. Like others have mentioned though, the main problem with GSC seems to be that there isn’t a single unit to hold objectives without being wiped by your opponent in one turn of shooting. That’s why I’m leaning towards laser neophytes in trucks. At least that way your opponent has to pop a truck and wipe a squad in one turn. Large squads of Jackals might work too? Lots of 2W T4 models with -1 to hit and a dirt cheap price..

The trouble with using units in trucks to hold objectives is unless your opponent kindly shoots the truck out from under you, it still only counts as 1 non-ObSec model on the objective - so they can take the objective off you with pretty much anything without having to kill your stuff at all.

hangnailnz wrote:
The trouble with using units in trucks to hold objectives is unless your opponent kindly shoots the truck out from under you, it still only counts as 1 non-ObSec model on the objective - so they can take the objective off you with pretty much anything without having to kill your stuff at all.

Well either that happens, or you have commited a singular squad on an objective with a guard statline.
In many ways i think that is the issue, if we want to really hold an objective we need to commit more squads then other factions (just like guard incidentally) in order to even stand a chance of having a squad remainig on an objective.
And whilest bladed cog and an iconward can help out, let's be honest here, 6++ and 6+++ or 5+ and 6+++ for a 6ppm model with t3 is trivial to remove, especially for Meq equivalents. It doesn't help either that even though we could expand most of our units size to more then 10 that blast just improves and morale can become an issue, and using a patriarch for morale babysitting duty is, well, also a lot of pts wasted

canonized wrote:
It’s a bit like comparing apples to oranges, but I’m inclined to agree. Like others have mentioned though, the main problem with GSC seems to be that there isn’t a single unit to hold objectives without being wiped by your opponent in one turn of shooting. That’s why I’m leaning towards laser neophytes in trucks. At least that way your opponent has to pop a truck and wipe a squad in one turn. Large squads of Jackals might work too? Lots of 2W T4 models with -1 to hit and a dirt cheap price..

I don't know, honestly, my gsc is the army I feel like scores like gangbusters no matter what I do. Mostly that's off the back of 50-pt handflamer acolyte squads and cheapo characters that I drop down to score, usually out of line of sight behind some chunk of building wall.

Jackals in theory do that job, but mainly they're there as a screen/unit to grab me 3pts from engage on turn 1. Many objectives can't be done by jackals. Also remember you have Lurk in the Shadows - even the shittiest, paper-thinnest infantry squad can make themselves functionally invincible if they have to get their objective hold on.

Lurk requires the unit to be entirely on or in terrain. The rules of 9th don't allow you to put terrain on objective markers. Now admittedly it's only the 40mm marker itself that terrain can't go on, so you can still have terrain within the 3" control zone, and therefore it's still possible to have a squad fully within a terrain feature and able to control an objective because you have a model or two just barely in range. But that's a very tenuous control, and more importantly, the big L-ruins that are the most common 40k terrain pieces usually aren't run as area terrain in order to avoid the problem with that stopping LOS-blocking, so often there isn't actually a terrain feature you can be wholly on or in within range of an objective. It's great when it works, but it'd be so much stronger without the "wholly on or within" caveat.