| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2019/08/09 16:50:40
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
What it says in the subject line, post your lists and argue with my list or those of others. Units that rely on a single OP Stratagem will not be heavily nerfed, instead, I'd wish for GW to simply fix the offending Stratagem, assuming the offending Stratagems are not nerfed then those units would have to be nerfed in some capacity. Imperium - WIP Adepta Sororitas - WIP Adeptus Custodes Adeptus Mechanicus Astra Militarum Death Korps of Krieg - WIP Elysian Drop Troops - WIP Imperial Knights - WIP Inquisition - WIP Officio Assassinorum - WIP Rogue Traders - WIP Sisters of Silence - WIP Space Marines - WIP Blood Angels Dark Angels Deathwatch - WIP Grey Knights Space Wolves - WIP Titan Legions
Chaos - V1.3 Chaos Daemons Gellarpox Infected Chaos Knights Chaos Space Marines Thousand Sons Deathguard Heretic Titan Legions Renegades and Heretics - WIP
Xenos - V1.2 Craftworlds Drukhari Harlequins Necrons Tau Empire Orks Tyranids Genestealer Cults
I'm planning on adding more factions to interest/enrage people. I don't think it's worthwhile to post anything relating to Heretic Astartes or Adeptus Astartes because of the reworks and changes that are coming in the next couple of months, but if you want to speculate on the worthwhileness of units after the changes GW has released come out then feel free.
|
|
This message was edited 41 times. Last update was at 2019/11/09 09:23:03
|
|
|
 |
|
2019/08/09 17:42:40
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
I play tau and honestly, I feel like most of our point values are pretty much where they need to be right now. What we need is a 2.0 codex that reworks several units to have more defined roles. Crisis suits are never really worth taking over a riptide or broadsides because those units do everything they do better, and what broadsides and riptides can't do. The commanders can.
The alien auxiliaries have the same issue. Kroot are just bad melee units in an army that's bad at melee. So no one takes them and just brings more fire warriors instead.
Tau are in a super good place right now overall. No units are standout terrible (maybe the skyray) and what's currently subpar isn't because their points are too low, but rather because the rules themselves don't give any reason to take them.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/09 17:59:08
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Alot of FW changes.
Wait who am i kidding nothing will happen 
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/09 18:02:42
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
If you mean points reductions or something to bring them more inline with the powercreep yes, if you think they need nerfed (outside of Custodes) I'd like you to see a therapist about where the FW employee touched you.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/09 19:01:24
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Ice_can wrote:
If you mean points reductions or something to bring them more inline with the powercreep yes, if you think they need nerfed (outside of Custodes) I'd like you to see a therapist about where the FW employee touched you.
See my sig.
Do you honestly think i would be in favour of general nerfs to FW index lists
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/09 19:49:19
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Signature's don't always show
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/09 21:36:11
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
I play r&h.
I started playing them in the days of the free vraks PDF list.
I am a proud owner of IA 13.
There is so much wrong alone in the pricing (overpriced) of the r&h list alone that it isn't even funny. And not to get started on missing units, etc.
Same with Krieg, elysians, etc.
Eldar Corsairs don't even exist basically anymore.
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/10 03:12:08
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
CRAFTWORLDERS
* Basically just reverse the change to Shadow Spectre points costs from forever ago. Currently, they're a decent unit that just costs a bit too much. The change seemed to have been a response to ynnari spectres at the time anyway, so... yeah. Also, they should probably have deepstrike (their phoenix lord does).
* Make crystal targeting matrix work against anything; not just the nearest enemy unit.
* Give Alaitoc's trait the Raven Guard nerf from the new marine codex. (So always in cover while more than 12", and non-vehicles get -1 to hit while in terrain.) It goes a long way towards fixing craftworld flyer durability.
* Striking Scorpion Mandiblasters switch from mortal wounds on 6s to something like a Strength 4 AP 0 Damage 1 auto-hit. The mortal wound thing doesn't kick in often enough to be useful and is generally more useful against heavily armor targets. A more reliable source of extra damage against squishy targets makes them the steady guardsman mulchers they used to be and leaves marine slicing more in the banshees' domain.
DRUKHARI
* Change the drukhari Raiding Force to actually be an option again. The batallion became +5CP instead of +3 CP about a week after the drukhari codex came out making it a completely terrible option almost instantly. It probably needs to grant a ton of CP as-is though; you're giving up triple ravagers and non-drukhari allies just to unlock your full codex. In competitive play, you'll only be playing with 3+ the raiding force's CP. I'm not sure making it generate like... 8 or even 10 CP is totally out of the question.
* As an alternative to the above, you could just make kabal/cult/coven non-mutually-exclusive within a detachment. So letting players field Poisoned Tongue warriors in a batallion with Cult of Strife wyches and Prophets of the Flesh wracks, basically.
YNNARI
* Something to make ynnari into the aeldari family reunion faction. I don't mind that the White Dwarf index nerfed them (they needed it), but the current rules make it absolutely punishing to try and field craftworlders, drukhari, and harlequins together in a ynnari faction. Even just making it so that ynnari only need one ynnari special character in their army rather than one per detachment would make them miles more playable from a fluff perspective.
* Let special characters into ynnari detachments again. You can exclude them from gaining the reborn keywords, but various special characters should absolutely be able to stand next to Yvraine on the table. Heck, one of the two Ynnari novels has Eldrad and an Avatar of Khaine (sort of) as active members of the ynnari. Phoenix Lords and Lelith Hesperax seem to be buddy buddy with Yvraine in Fall of Biel-Tan. Yriel has one of the Morai-Heg-darned crone swords.
* Let Incubi and Scourges be ynnari without paying a CP tax, you weirdos.
|
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/10 16:46:44
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
|
Lets just agree that 90% of FW units in 8th are currently trash, and the ones that aren't are by pure chance?
Anyway, as for my armies.
Tau needs some rework for some units. points are not the issue, its that commanders have very little command ability and are basically just scoped-out crisis, crisis don't have anything they do that is special to them any more, etc.
Basically a classic FSE is impossible. crisis suits can't form a proper core, you don't have HQ options for a battalion (commander limit and the fact FSE cant have ethereal means you have to take a fireblade, and FSE wants to be aggressive with breachers, fireblades are kina pointless for FSE.)
The tau FW is just....bad.
Its mostly not even a matter of points, its a matter of the HQs not competing with a stock commander/coldstar for his slot, the high-intensity markerlight is mechanically idiotic. the tanks and planes might be useful if a bit cheaper, but that's it.
TS
The main issue with TS is still the lackluster spells and the fact the tactics is horrible. it basically effects only HQs, driving the "ahriman and two princes supreme command" being the only thing TS actually have of value.
Especially now that CT seems to expand to all units, making the fact TS tactics only effect the HQs even more glaring. (yes, it technically effects all psykers, but as said-the spells SUCK for non-HQs. and with a mere mini-smite being on average as deadly to you as the enemy, why bother?)
Beyond that, the flamers are overpriced, they need a serious drop before they are worth considering. its strong, but short range on slow unit makes it just unwieldy, and the price aint worth the effect.
So basically, neither tau nor TS are going to get fixed in CA at all.
|
 can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 04:14:21
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Gargantuan Gargant
|
Orks just need the basic rework that was expected after the last CA, PK come down to 9 points like all the other power fists. Skorchas and Kombi-Skorchas come down to 14 ppm, and killsaws go down to 12 and 16 for a pair.
Outside of those expected ones, I would want to see:
Big shootas down to 2 ppm,
Rokkit launchas down to 9 ppm.
Smasha Gunz up to 25 points for the weapon
KMK down to 35 for the weapon
Bubblechukkas need to be redone altogether tbh to compete against both Smashas and KMK, I think it should be the effective replacement for lobbas now that its effectively dead in the water as an index choice and won't be revisited. Give it indirect fire and drop the points down to 20.
Burnas become Assault D6
Burna Boyz and Stormboyz become 8 ppm.
Warbikerz become 18 ppm
Nob Bikerz become 25 ppm
Painboyz are brought down to 35 points, due to their mandatory PK
Runtherd ideally would have rules that buff grot units in general for shooting or provide morale including Killa Kanz for their current price, but if they don't change their current rules, make them 20 points max
Nob with WAAAGH! Banner down to 60
Deffkoptas down to 20
All the new buggies should be around or under the 100 point range, as they cost too much currently for what they do. Rukkatrukk needs an entire overhaul instead since even with a price cut it doesn't really do anything well.
Stompa goes down to 500-600 points
Killa Kanz go down to 30 ppm. Lower grotzookas down to 5 points, or change their profile back to assault again.
Kustom Mega Blastas go down to 6
Lootas go down to 14, with the loss of mob up for them, they really don't need to cost that much.
Gunwagons should cost 120 or 110 tbh given how meh they are.
Ghazzy goes down to 215 like he used to be.
Flash Gitz down to 25 ppm
I think I covered everything that comes to mind.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 05:17:58
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
 BoomWolf wrote:Lets just agree that 90% of FW units in 8th are currently trash, and the ones that aren't are by pure chance?
Anyway, as for my armies.
Tau needs some rework for some units. points are not the issue, its that commanders have very little command ability and are basically just scoped-out crisis, crisis don't have anything they do that is special to them any more, etc.
Basically a classic FSE is impossible. crisis suits can't form a proper core, you don't have HQ options for a battalion (commander limit and the fact FSE cant have ethereal means you have to take a fireblade, and FSE wants to be aggressive with breachers, fireblades are kina pointless for FSE.)
The tau FW is just....bad.
Its mostly not even a matter of points, its a matter of the HQs not competing with a stock commander/coldstar for his slot, the high-intensity markerlight is mechanically idiotic. the tanks and planes might be useful if a bit cheaper, but that's it.
TS
The main issue with TS is still the lackluster spells and the fact the tactics is horrible. it basically effects only HQs, driving the "ahriman and two princes supreme command" being the only thing TS actually have of value.
Especially now that CT seems to expand to all units, making the fact TS tactics only effect the HQs even more glaring. (yes, it technically effects all psykers, but as said-the spells SUCK for non- HQs. and with a mere mini-smite being on average as deadly to you as the enemy, why bother?)
Beyond that, the flamers are overpriced, they need a serious drop before they are worth considering. its strong, but short range on slow unit makes it just unwieldy, and the price aint worth the effect.
So basically, neither tau nor TS are going to get fixed in CA at all.
Commanders are too cheap, you should never bring more than one, it just doesn't make sense from a rules and a thematic standpoint that Commanders are so cheap that you always bring 3. You are getting the once per battle thing for free and only really paying for the firepower.
You can make a Vanguard Detachment, we've seen non-Battalion lists work, but Battalions are OP right now, that makes it hard to make a Vanguard army wtih sub-par units work. And I've already mentioned FSE being UP, I hope this gets addressed instead of just seeing Crisis become criminally undercosted and slotting into one of the existing castle lists with 3x missile pods. Make Commanders expensive enough and Crisis + burst cannons/fusion blasters cheap enough and we'll see them, but it'll probably be as Sacea.
TS has seen really good success recently with Rubrics, the Terminators are probably going to get a lot better with +1 A in the first round of combat, the beastmen are still really good. Sup Coms being more popular than Battalions is because your HQs are OP. Nobody takes them I don't think, but those disc beastmen with the bows are pretty scary, if medium range and not too durable. Because TS are not affected by a dozen different tactics you can lower the cost of one unit knowing it'll only affect one tactics rather than with SM it's going to affect 15 tactics so you have to take all of it into account.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 10:43:14
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
 vict0988 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:Lets just agree that 90% of FW units in 8th are currently trash, and the ones that aren't are by pure chance?
Anyway, as for my armies.
Tau needs some rework for some units. points are not the issue, its that commanders have very little command ability and are basically just scoped-out crisis, crisis don't have anything they do that is special to them any more, etc.
Basically a classic FSE is impossible. crisis suits can't form a proper core, you don't have HQ options for a battalion (commander limit and the fact FSE cant have ethereal means you have to take a fireblade, and FSE wants to be aggressive with breachers, fireblades are kina pointless for FSE.)
The tau FW is just....bad.
Its mostly not even a matter of points, its a matter of the HQs not competing with a stock commander/coldstar for his slot, the high-intensity markerlight is mechanically idiotic. the tanks and planes might be useful if a bit cheaper, but that's it.
TS
The main issue with TS is still the lackluster spells and the fact the tactics is horrible. it basically effects only HQs, driving the "ahriman and two princes supreme command" being the only thing TS actually have of value.
Especially now that CT seems to expand to all units, making the fact TS tactics only effect the HQs even more glaring. (yes, it technically effects all psykers, but as said-the spells SUCK for non- HQs. and with a mere mini-smite being on average as deadly to you as the enemy, why bother?)
Beyond that, the flamers are overpriced, they need a serious drop before they are worth considering. its strong, but short range on slow unit makes it just unwieldy, and the price aint worth the effect.
So basically, neither tau nor TS are going to get fixed in CA at all.
Commanders are too cheap, you should never bring more than one, it just doesn't make sense from a rules and a thematic standpoint that Commanders are so cheap that you always bring 3. You are getting the once per battle thing for free and only really paying for the firepower.
The problem with commanders is that they don't command. The unit needs a total rework. Get rid of the "can take 4 of any weapon" ability. Give them a bunch of special aura boosting wargear that they have to pay points for. Then boom. They are now a buffing unit that makes crisis suits better and worth taking alongside them. Damage output would be low, but they would be making crisis suits better and buffing the damage output of those.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 11:50:31
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
balmong7 wrote:The problem with commanders is that they don't command. The unit needs a total rework. Get rid of the "can take 4 of any weapon" ability. Give them a bunch of special aura boosting wargear that they have to pay points for. Then boom. They are now a buffing unit that makes crisis suits better and worth taking alongside them. Damage output would be low, but they would be making crisis suits better and buffing the damage output of those.
I don't think it's reasonable to ask that options like that are removed. The Master of War ability is pretty fluffy, I wouldn't change it. I'm not sure why Crisis need direct oversight from a Commander, they have already gone through combat several times, they are designed to be dropped from a drop ship and then handle stuff, making them reliant on a Commander like Astra Militarum Infantry Squads are does not make sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 12:20:26
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
vict0988 wrote:balmong7 wrote:The problem with commanders is that they don't command. The unit needs a total rework. Get rid of the "can take 4 of any weapon" ability. Give them a bunch of special aura boosting wargear that they have to pay points for. Then boom. They are now a buffing unit that makes crisis suits better and worth taking alongside them. Damage output would be low, but they would be making crisis suits better and buffing the damage output of those.
I don't think it's reasonable to ask that options like that are removed. The Master of War ability is pretty fluffy, I wouldn't change it. I'm not sure why Crisis need direct oversight from a Commander, they have already gone through combat several times, they are designed to be dropped from a drop ship and then handle stuff, making them reliant on a Commander like Astra Militarum Infantry Squads are does not make sense to me.
Then there are only two options here. make commanders stupid expensive so no one will take them. Make crisis suits super cheap so everyone takes them. Because right now there are two units competing for the same role in the army and one is objectively better than the other. They need to be reworked to complement each other, or to fill different roles within the army. Because currently, a commander is just a BS2 crisis suit with 1 extra weapon and a one-use aura ability. No reason to take a crisis suit over a commander.
But as as I stated earlier, this is a codex problem. Not a chapter approved problem. Tau are in a great spot for points right now, and I don't really see any obvious changes coming in the next chapter approved.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 12:21:21
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 12:33:11
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
balmong7 wrote: vict0988 wrote:balmong7 wrote:The problem with commanders is that they don't command. The unit needs a total rework. Get rid of the "can take 4 of any weapon" ability. Give them a bunch of special aura boosting wargear that they have to pay points for. Then boom. They are now a buffing unit that makes crisis suits better and worth taking alongside them. Damage output would be low, but they would be making crisis suits better and buffing the damage output of those.
I don't think it's reasonable to ask that options like that are removed. The Master of War ability is pretty fluffy, I wouldn't change it. I'm not sure why Crisis need direct oversight from a Commander, they have already gone through combat several times, they are designed to be dropped from a drop ship and then handle stuff, making them reliant on a Commander like Astra Militarum Infantry Squads are does not make sense to me.
Then there are only two options here. make commanders stupid expensive so no one will take them. Make crisis suits super cheap so everyone takes them. Because right now there are two units competing for the same role in the army and one is objectively better than the other. They need to be reworked to complement each other, or to fill different roles within the army. Because currently, a commander is just a BS2 crisis suit with 1 extra weapon and a one-use aura ability. No reason to take a crisis suit over a commander.
But as as I stated earlier, this is a codex problem. Not a chapter approved problem. Tau are in a great spot for points right now, and I don't really see any obvious changes coming in the next chapter approved.
The base problem is BS 4+ for crisis suits by the time they hit -1 to hit they are really suffering against -2 they are terrible.
They arn't worth their points, commanders arn't broken and also Tau having multiple commanders isn't unfluffy, they do tend to have multiple senior officers.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 13:09:51
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
Ice_can wrote:They arn't worth their points, commanders arn't broken and also Tau having multiple commanders isn't unfluffy, they do tend to have multiple senior officers.
How are they not broken when everyone is chafing at the restriction of max 3 Commanders? That's a clear sign of a broken unit. Are there any top Tau lists that don't field 3 Commanders? I'm not familiar with the new style of mechanised lists, but I'm guessing they use 3 Commanders as well. Saying that it makes sense for 3 Shas´o to be in the same 2000 pt army is wrong, 2000 pts is not even enough to fill out a single Cadre. 7th had a thing for calling mini-formations the names of much larger formations in the fluff, but a Cadre is supposed to rival a formation of Astra Militarum numbering in the hundreds or thousands. 15 Tau Fire Warriors does not a Cadre make. 15 Warriors is little more than a single large team, perhaps enough to warrant a Shas´ el Cadre Fireblade, but nothing more. It's not that 3 Commanders is super unreasonable, I can forge a narrative where aspects of three different cadres forge a spearhead against an enemy battlegroup, but it's not reasonable that they act as Lieutenants when they are generals. The rules are already there, you are already discouraged from taking multiple, their pts costs are just so insanely low that you Tau players don't care that they aren't getting the Master of War ability a second or third time, they just want to slap a bunch of guns on their 2+ BS Rambo assasins, it's not reasonable from a fluff perspective, them, Tau Sept and Shield Drones help promote the community's great hatred for Tau. balmong7 wrote:Then there are only two options here. make commanders stupid expensive so no one will take them.
Why do you think there are only two options? If it is worth taking 3 at 100 pts and 0 at 200, that does not mean that a situation where 1 is the most popular cannot be found somewhere in the middle. As I pointed out, the rules already support playing 1 over playing multiple, so even if I accept that 140 pts = 3 Commanders and 141 pts = 0, then I'll make it cost 140,732773 and the majority of players will field 1, a minority will field 0, 2 or 3. A part of the problem is also the reward for taking multiple Battalions being what it is, if you need 5 or 6 HQs you are going to need 3 Commanders because Fireblades don't stack and you rarely want to benefit from more than one Ethereal. Reducing the costs of Fireblades and removing his aura would be one way of promoting Fireblade spam over Commander spam, but a simple price reduction in Fireblades and an increase in Commanders would make the average Tau army more fluffy.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 13:10:25
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 13:25:28
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
And in previous codex's Tau could be a commander without having to be a Shas'o.
Your assuming a Shas'o is what is represented by the datasheet We used ti have Shas,El aswell which is also represented by the commander datasheet. It's not the players fault GW decided to make them the same datasheet.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 14:04:43
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
vict0988 wrote:
balmong7 wrote:Then there are only two options here. make commanders stupid expensive so no one will take them.
Why do you think there are only two options? If it is worth taking 3 at 100 pts and 0 at 200, that does not mean that a situation where 1 is the most popular cannot be found somewhere in the middle. As I pointed out, the rules already support playing 1 over playing multiple, so even if I accept that 140 pts = 3 Commanders and 141 pts = 0, then I'll make it cost 140,732773 and the majority of players will field 1, a minority will field 0, 2 or 3.
Because people are taking commanders due to them BS2+ and almost 50% cheaper than a crisis suit squad with the same loadout. If you increase the commander cost, then they stop taking commanders (apart from maybe the named ones who get to use the once per game abilities twice) and will just bring crisis suits instead. Unless they introduce something to the commander or something to crisis suit that makes the units meaningfully different than one another them tourny players will just spam whichever unit is mathematically better.
It's not a points issue. The points are fine. The problem is that the units fill the same battlefield role and one will always be mathematically better than the other unless they add some special abilities to differentiate them.
Tau players are mad about the 3 commander restriction because we feel like its the designers recognizing a problem (That commanders are objectively better than crisis suits in every way) and then rather than fixing it, just saying "hey don't take the better unit." rather than actually fixing the problem.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 14:08:59
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/11 15:31:31
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
|
Yup, the commander datasheet is broken at it's core.
Its a command unit that not only have the LEAST command abilities in the game because its a once-per-game aura, each sucsessive commander reduces it further as they share the once-per-game limit of the ability.
No other unit in the game has this, and it reduces the master of war ability to a mere "nifty addon" for the commander who is basically a gun carrier rather than a leader, and his points are set as such that he is an excelent gunship-because he does nothing else.
He's actually best when alone. that's the opposite of commanding.
The commander should have less gunship abilities, and more actual command abilities.
Heck, you can limit all crisis variants to just two guns, then make the commander's thing is that their support systems become auras-and BHAM, your commander fill a unique, flexible role of providing support system benefits you your army, and the go-to "triple same gun" go-to crisis loadout gets removed.
You'll need to rebalance points-but at least you got a reason to think of crisis and commanders as separate units. the crisis are the efficient gun carriers, the commanders are the buff centrals.
And saying it makes no sense for tau to have 3 shas'os is silly.
Marines bring 3 commanders and nobody bats an eye, Nids can bring 3 swarms lords without issues, necrons can feature 3 overlords, etc.
Nobody else has this spesific limit. its not a fluff limit, its an artificial limit because the commander is too good of a gunship and invalidate the crisis suits so they tried forcing the crisis suit.
|
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/16 15:34:25
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Fresh-Faced New User
|
Gonna focus on more point changes and ability rewording than datasheet changes or adding new pieces of wargear like a serpent shield or mindshock pods.
Craftworlds:
The grand expectation here is that the flyers (and probably the Night Spinner) are about to get hit with a big nerf bat. I worry about this, as I don't think that there's anything left for the Asuryani to fall back on to stay competitively viable. The codex has long been made up of some fantastic units surrounded by a lot of trash, and those great units have been getting nerfed steadily.
To fix this, point adjustments to other units to support a different playstyle would be appreciated. I would start by reverting Shining Spears and Dark Reapers point values now that Ynnari aren't making them move/shoot/fight twice. I would give further point decreases to Vipers (35) and swooping hawks (11 per model) . I'd put Eldrad back up to his prior points value and revert the warlock points values as well.
Eldar Vehicles would get the Hover Tanks rule (Tau too). The fact that the Scorpius gets to ignore moving with heavy weapons because it's a hover tank is an absolute slap in the face for those Xenos players. Crystal Targeting Matrix gets +1 to hit against the closest target, along with a point increase to 10pts.
I would leave the Wraithknight with a native 5++, with a shield increasing to to a 4++. It needs so much more, but I would instead provide a new datasheet for that. General idea is that I would rather it be a viable equivalent to imperial and chaos knights, not a cheaper bargain-bin version that it would feel like if it just got a points decrease. I feel that that statement is also a good rule of thumb when looking at independent characters, especially the Phoenix Lords and the Avatar.
FW Craftworlds:
Point reduction for Shadow Spectres. 25 per model, 25 for an exarch (Same as a model).
Point reduction for Hornet Pulse laser, down to 20. I'd apply the hover tank rule to Hornets as well.
Major Point reduction for Lynx. I suggest changing the base points value to 275, maybe even remove the extra cost for the sonic lance. The vehicle is more expensive than a Gallant for far less capability.
I honestly think the Distortion fields rule needs to be reworked. It doesn't even come into play if the opponent gets to go first, and with 3+ armor on the units that use this rule, it's almost the same as saying that you don't get an armor save. Scorpion and Cobra feel good for the points, but I could make an argument that they could drop about 50 points because of the One Big Gun issue.
Revenant should probably be like 875 points max. 2000 is taking the piss.
Phantom, I feel, is actually pretty good for what it does.
Dark Eldar:
Incubi need a lot of things, my god. Such a cool unit with terrible rules. Their rule is effectively a -1 to bravery, just written in a dumb way. I don't think they can or should be fixed with just points, Drazhar included.
Hellions could stand to be cheaper.
Cronos could stand to be cheaper. I think it can be a fun unit.
FW Dark Eldar:
I think the Tantalus should be cheaper. Its very existence flies against how the Dark Eldar play, but it's so fun. I think there should be an incentive to run it for the fun factor. They'll probably fix the hellions/scourges thing with its transport rules eventually.
I haven't used the Reaper, but I hear it has less output than a Dissie Cannon Ravager.
Harlequins:
Troupe members could stand to be slightly cheaper - 10 points.
Neuro Disruptors need to be cheaper at 4.
Death Jesters could lose a few points, maybe 40 as a baseline.
Voidweavers should be cheaper, 60 base, which leaves haywire at 95 points and prismatic at flat 100. I've seen some interesting suggestions, such as the idea that they get some kind of shooting bonus for moving.
Ynnari:
All three are way too expensive for what they bring to the table, the Yncarne especially.
Yvraine: 120 points. Warlord Trait changed from Favored of Ynnead to Walker of Many Paths.
The Visarch: 100 points.He's an ok beatstick with a reroll ones aura. I would update his Champion of Ynnead rule to regenerate wounds on Aeldari model deaths, and gains extra attacks when any characters, not just Aeldari, die around him.
The Yncarne: If it had the opportunity to fight twice, its points would be more reasonable. I'd bring it down to about 250, but I'd prefer to give it an updated data sheet.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/16 18:24:50
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Stalwart Tribune
|
Tau Battlesuit Weapons
Name (BS4+)
Name (BS2+)
BS2+ = Current points
BS4+ = significantly less.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 05:50:22
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
I'm onboard with pretty much everything Antikonos said.
|
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 06:07:18
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
No nerfs for Eldar? Do you feel like a nerf to Alaitoc/flyers is a bad idea.
No nerf for Commander weapons? Should support systems or non-TL weapons not be an option?
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 08:47:25
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
 Grimskul wrote:Orks just need the basic rework that was expected after the last CA, PK come down to 9 points like all the other power fists. Skorchas and Kombi-Skorchas come down to 14 ppm, and killsaws go down to 12 and 16 for a pair.
Outside of those expected ones, I would want to see:
I think I covered everything that comes to mind.
This plus a few nerfs to our most efficient units -
Smasha Guns go up to 30.
Traktor cannons only auto hit keyword FLY units and drop in price or gain an extra shot but stay same cost.
SAG Mek goes up or Grot Oilers go up.
Weirdboys go up.
Mad dok goes up.
Badrukk goes up.
Other than the obvious buffs to under performing units of other factions and nerfs to their over performing units I’d also like to see clarification on index units - they either need to be brought in line with codex options or removed entirely (in which case I’d hope GW are replacing models with copyright name tm). There are some very strange interactions and/or exploits that almost any faction can do using index options currently that I’d like to see fixed. Finally I’d like an update to FW units in CA. There’s no reason this can’t be done as many of the rules for FW units are not in line with codex rules and their points are all over the place.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 10:51:48
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
vict0988 wrote:No nerfs for Eldar? Do you feel like a nerf to Alaitoc/flyers is a bad idea.
No nerf for Commander weapons? Should support systems or non- TL weapons not be an option?
Support systems aren't an option because more guns is always better. That's a rules problem. not a points problem. Most support systems are hugely situational. That's why you only ever see the shield gen and ATS considered at all.
Whoever wrote the Tau codex didn't actually think about how the units work when they ported the rules over from 7th. As a result, there are a lot of broken and redundant weapons, buffs, and wargear. None of that can be fixed with point rebalances. Automatically Appended Next Post:  An Actual Englishman wrote:
Other than the obvious buffs to under performing units of other factions and nerfs to their over performing units I’d also like to see clarification on index units - they either need to be brought in line with codex options or removed entirely (in which case I’d hope GW are replacing models with copyright name tm). There are some very strange interactions and/or exploits that almost any faction can do using index options currently that I’d like to see fixed. Finally I’d like an update to FW units in CA. There’s no reason this can’t be done as many of the rules for FW units are not in line with codex rules and their points are all over the place.
I would love to see an announcement that FW units are going to be part of the codices moving forward and that the main rules team will write their rules. I still don't understand how GW can look at FW and say "Yeah we should totally pretend those units don't exist when writing the rules for the game, and then let FW write their own rules without ever reading the codices themselves. That will result in a fun game balance and not alienate the player base at all."
If Necromunda can balance forgeworld weapon packs and regular gang boxes. I'm sure that 40k can manage to integrate the two lines as well.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/17 10:57:04
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 19:42:40
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
I would love to see an announcement that FW units are going to be part of the codices moving forward and that the main rules team will write their rules. I still don't understand how GW can look at FW and say "Yeah we should totally pretend those units don't exist when writing the rules for the game, and then let FW write their own rules without ever reading the codices themselves. That will result in a fun game balance and not alienate the player base at all."
You are uninformed.
Ever since the unfortunate death of the Fw subdivision leader the gw Team has written fw rules.
That is basically 8th edition.
Also the most broken gak that was ever in 40k was solely gw main ruleteams failure.
(fish of fury)
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 20:13:52
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Ice_can wrote:balmong7 wrote: vict0988 wrote:balmong7 wrote:The problem with commanders is that they don't command. The unit needs a total rework. Get rid of the "can take 4 of any weapon" ability. Give them a bunch of special aura boosting wargear that they have to pay points for. Then boom. They are now a buffing unit that makes crisis suits better and worth taking alongside them. Damage output would be low, but they would be making crisis suits better and buffing the damage output of those.
I don't think it's reasonable to ask that options like that are removed. The Master of War ability is pretty fluffy, I wouldn't change it. I'm not sure why Crisis need direct oversight from a Commander, they have already gone through combat several times, they are designed to be dropped from a drop ship and then handle stuff, making them reliant on a Commander like Astra Militarum Infantry Squads are does not make sense to me.
Then there are only two options here. make commanders stupid expensive so no one will take them. Make crisis suits super cheap so everyone takes them. Because right now there are two units competing for the same role in the army and one is objectively better than the other. They need to be reworked to complement each other, or to fill different roles within the army. Because currently, a commander is just a BS2 crisis suit with 1 extra weapon and a one-use aura ability. No reason to take a crisis suit over a commander.
But as as I stated earlier, this is a codex problem. Not a chapter approved problem. Tau are in a great spot for points right now, and I don't really see any obvious changes coming in the next chapter approved.
The base problem is BS 4+ for crisis suits by the time they hit -1 to hit they are really suffering against -2 they are terrible.
They arn't worth their points, commanders arn't broken and also Tau having multiple commanders isn't unfluffy, they do tend to have multiple senior officers.
I think a decent point cut and BS3+ would go a long way to fixing them.
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
 jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
 vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
 MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/17 20:26:16
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
vict0988 wrote:No nerfs for Eldar? Do you feel like a nerf to Alaitoc/flyers is a bad idea.
Nerfing the Alaitoc trait to be like the new Raven Guard trait is probably a good idea, and eldar flyers probably do need to be nerfed. BUT eldar flyers are considered by many to be the last top tier build for craftworlders these days due in part to the series of nerfs they took in an effort to balance out their now-defunct ynnari counterparts.
So it's not that eldar flyers should go unnerfed; it's just that we'd really rather like it if other things got buffed/unnerfed at the same time.
Craftworlders still have a lot going for them, but they've also sort of developed some holes in their lineup over time. Our anti-tank guns are all either on expensive platforms or stuck with 12" range. Our only really threatening melee units are either still priced as though they're soul bursting ynnari (shining spears) or else are just super expensive in general (warlock conclaves, wraith blades). And at the moment, our craftworld traits are mostly just meh aside from the always take Alaitoc trait that should probably get the Raven Guard treatment.
Which isn't to say that craftworlders are bad. Again, they have a lot going for them. But without the airplane and Alaitoc crutches, they might not really have any top tier builds left.
|
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/18 11:28:01
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
Not Online!!! wrote:
I would love to see an announcement that FW units are going to be part of the codices moving forward and that the main rules team will write their rules. I still don't understand how GW can look at FW and say "Yeah we should totally pretend those units don't exist when writing the rules for the game, and then let FW write their own rules without ever reading the codices themselves. That will result in a fun game balance and not alienate the player base at all."
You are uninformed.
Ever since the unfortunate death of the Fw subdivision leader the gw Team has written fw rules.
That is basically 8th edition.
Also the most broken gak that was ever in 40k was solely gw main ruleteams failure.
(fish of fury)
Then I revise my wish to just "Include forgeworld units in the codices as parts of the army and update their rules and points with the same level of care and detail as the main codex units."
|
|
|
|
|
2019/08/18 11:55:04
Subject: Chapter Approved 2019 Pts Wishlist
|
|
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
balmong7 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:
I would love to see an announcement that FW units are going to be part of the codices moving forward and that the main rules team will write their rules. I still don't understand how GW can look at FW and say "Yeah we should totally pretend those units don't exist when writing the rules for the game, and then let FW write their own rules without ever reading the codices themselves. That will result in a fun game balance and not alienate the player base at all."
You are uninformed.
Ever since the unfortunate death of the Fw subdivision leader the gw Team has written fw rules.
That is basically 8th edition.
Also the most broken gak that was ever in 40k was solely gw main ruleteams failure.
(fish of fury)
Then I revise my wish to just "Include forgeworld units in the codices as parts of the army and update their rules and points with the same level of care and detail as the main codex units."
So basically 0 for most units. Except the few broken ones.
Good one.
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
