Can GW just kill classic marines already?

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**ZebioLizard2**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
balmong7 wrote:
They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?

It's understandable a new player wouldn't understand because you've not seen an old marine army compared to a Primaris ine. With the old marine armies, there was a ton of different units, loadouts and abilities, so chapters easily stood apart from one another. White scars had a ton of bikes and landspeeders. Blood Angels had a ton of jetpacks and heroes. Space Wolves got flanderized with the wolf wolf of the wolf but they had an identity. Take a look at an entirely Primaris marine army on the other hand. They're almost all identical, regardless of chapter. Wanna play white scars? Cool, you get to walk or ride in a Repulsor/hover rhino or be some fat inceptors with no melee. Wanna be blood angels? Same thing, hope you like walking or hitching a ride on a hovercraft or don't mind being a fat assault marine with no melee. Essentially it's the loadouts mainly. Old marines have a stupid amount of customization and wargear options (likely why GW wants to phase them out). Yes, I can proxy a Bolter marine as an intercessor, but what about assault marines? They're not dual wielding heavy bolters. What about bikes? They don't have a Primaris equivalent? What about devestators, who go from like 8 different weapons down to 3 different versions of plasma. A massive chunk of an okdmarines collection has no modern equivalent. Not to mention they're the largest playerbases by far, their line has the least excuse to be retired.

In addition, many of the classic marine units that are unique to codexes are not possible in a Primaris line. Death Company, Wulven, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing, space wolf "wolves", all are only possible due to geneseed mutations that have been removed due to the primaris being so perfect and pure. Gabriel Seth of the Flesh tearers explains it perfectly in the book Devestation of Baal, "these aren't blood Angels, they're Ultramarines in red paint. Without the flaw what makes them any different than any other marine out there?" Paraphrase of course. So all the stuff that makes the chapters unique, the wolf wolf of the wolf wolf Space Wolves get, the tragic vampire Noble Savage line blood Angels get, the dark brooding secrets of the Dark Angels, you get the idea. None of those are really possible with Primaris. Any geneseed mutations is fixed, any tragic backstory or history is ruined because the primaris don't care, they didn't do it. It basically kills a lot of what little justification each marine codex has for being it's own book. Heck even the dreads show GW either intentionally or unintentionally squatting the lore, with the new dreads burning their pilots out quickly, meaning other than old marines the primaris have no way to retain their most ancient warriors.

Take the new White Scars codex for example. Their hero is known for being on a bike, but Primaris don't have any bikes whatsoever. So they stuck him on foot, which is horribly against what he should be doing. Hell the entire Primaris line is an affront to the white scars fighting style. They've got no bikes, their assault marine equivalent are fat and slow with no melee options, and for the most part Primaris have no truly good melee units whatsoever. It's a line that's essentially just a walking gunline with some hover tanks forced into a chapter that hates that style of fighting. Remember that Primaris Space Wolf starter box from a while back? The only model that looked even remotely wolfy was the unique character, everything else was just painted a different shade of blue and called it a day.

Same goes for blood Angels, all the stuff they like to do they can't do with Primaris. Assault marines? Nope. Death company? Nope. Jump pack characters being badasses? Don't even get jetpacks on characters. Fast vehicles? Nah, have fun with a Repulsor.

So yeah I'm not even really a marine player but I get why they hate Primaris. The line is basically a giant middle finger mechanically, aesthetically, and lore wise to the established lore of most of the chapters. When characters in the books are outright calling Primaris generic replacements that lack the soul of what their chapter is meant to be, it's a problem. It reeks of a marketing team going "the classic marine isn't marketable in today's climate. We need a squeeky clean new version to replace them as the face".

Of course this is all talking about 5E+ armies, when they had to push more and more new units out to justify the codex's being separate. Back in the old "Angels of Death" 2E days you didn't really have all that much different aside from one to three more units! I remember the arguments well wondering why Space Marines needed so many Codex's and could be consolidated back into one (Black Templars being the first stuck back into the main codex for example)

Of course I'm wondering what their endgoal with the replacements are in general. Since it seems like they want to replace things but don't feel the need to replace the primary line (No Primaris Bikers yet?)

**ccs**

Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess

Well that's a short sighted dumbass approach.
Just because you're unhappy doesn't mean that I should lose my oldschool SM armies.

You can drop your old marine army (or the entire hobby), ignore all things Primaris, & solve your problem any time you like. Yesterday, today, tomorrow.... Go ahead, do it.
If you're unhappy with the current direction of the SM but still like the game in general? Change armies & take joy in every victory you achieve over the increasing Primaris abomination.
If you're really unhappy? As in dropping the hobby unhappy? There's the door. Get out.
But whatever you do, know that it won't affect GWs current & future Primaris plans.

And the sooner you get your wish of GW dropping the old marines so that you can assuage your conscious or whatever concerning dropping the army/hobby? Then the sooner {I} get screwed over. Because I too play SM armies, have no interest in most things Primaris (I dislike most of the models), but regardless of the state of their rules I intend to use my toys as long as possible.

Look, you're unhappy now. At some point in the future, odds are that I will be as well. But since you want me to be unhappy sooner rather than later? **&&% you.

**Spectral Ceramite**

I have a lot of old marines and I love them. TBH if GW says old marines are out makes it easy, cause same base size all old marines become primaris by default (may have to convert some weapons etc). I have converted all my old marines to Deathwatch nearly by now and made sure to base them on 32's that has a lot of basing stuff so they are all same height as primaris if put side by side. The only thing will be weapons (I have hundreds with many different combos, I'm sure some will be viable if they nerf batted it).

Think about it, if they got rid of normal SM, they automatically become primaris if some1 wants to use them as such. cause look almost the same just primaris a bit bigger (hence basing)...they cant really get rid of norm marines until way in the future cause people just proxy them. Only difference is vehicles etc. All models still there but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3mDlarDdcM

See that aggressors are wound 3 and centurions are wound 4 now, makes a difference for marines etc off first watch

Granted I have a big DW primaris force as well, ready for either way

**Crimson**

Mmmpi wrote:
Why would GW get rid of the obviously superior Space Marine Classic?

These guys? They stopped selling them decades ago.

**Spectral Ceramite**

Crimson wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:
Why would GW get rid of the obviously superior Space Marine Classic?

These guys? They stopped selling them decades ago.

Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy

**Crimson**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy

That came later. The pic is from the Rogue Trader rulebook, and models there have either black or brown base trims.

**Spectral Ceramite**

Crimson wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy

That came later. The pic is from the Rogue Trader rulebook, and models there have either black or brown base trims.

and? all need that 90's flare...

j/k (I paint all my childhood models, eg 80's early 90's goblin green or equiv for fun)

)))

**kryczek**

Once the designer said it was a re-design of the marine range we started phasing out our oldstartes. Still have my BA specific stuff but other than that they are pretty much gone from my group. I quite like the models myself so it's not a problem for me.

**Spectral Ceramite**

kryczek wrote:
Once the designer said it was a re-design of the marine range we started phasing out our oldstartes. Still have my BA specific stuff but other than that they are pretty much gone from my group. I quite like the models myself so it's not a problem for me.

you really care on designer or artist etc etc, its an era, ye the artists definded the era, but no1 really cares.... is goblin green era...us guys with multiple uni degrees and real jobs in that era would laugh but is the spawn of greatness

**The Newman**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I have a lot of old marines and I love them. TBH if GW says old marines are out makes it easy, cause same base size all old marines become primaris by default (may have to convert some weapons etc). I have converted all my old marines to Deathwatch nearly by now and made sure to base them on 32's that has a lot of basing stuff so they are all same height as primaris if put side by side. The only thing will be weapons (I have hundreds with many different combos, I'm sure some will be viable if they nerf batted it).

Think about it, if they got rid of normal SM, they automatically become primaris if some1 wants to use them as such. cause look almost the same just primaris a bit bigger (hence basing)...they cant really get rid of norm marines until way in the future cause people just proxy them. Only difference is vehicles etc. All models still there but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3mDlarDdcM

See that aggressors are wound 3 and centurions are wound 4 now, makes a difference for marines etc off first watch

Granted I have a big DW primaris force as well, ready for either way

That guy clearly isn't reading the book very closely considering how many things he got wrong just talking. I have to watch it on a bigger screen to look more closely for unit/weapon changes since I don't trust him to have read properly.

If he's reading it right all the existing warlord traits stayed the same and the Phobos ones got massively nerfed if they really did all get changed to specify Phobos units only. Precepts of Deceit, Master of the Vanguard, and Priority Target do not specify that keyword in the Shadowspear book.

Master of the Chapter dropped to 2 CP though, so that's good.

**ScarVet101**

It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.

Anyway, I doubt the units themselves will be dropped but give it a few years and we'll see the key units upgraded to Primarus.

Following the fluff, either Assault or Devastators would get a Primarus version as these are the squads newly prompted Scouts went to (depending on chapter) before moving onto the other type.

Tactical squads are the shown as the experienced battle brothers so they would be the last to be replaced as the newer recruits move through the ranks.

None of the tanks need updating in terms of rules other then saying one primarus = one old marine and let them use Rhinos, Razorbacks and Land Raiders.

Old models still get used but the full range now as one version of marines.

In regards to Scouts, their smaller size can just show that they're still growing.

**Grimtuff**

ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.

False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.

**Sunny Side Up**

Grimtuff wrote:
ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.

False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.

Except Primaris didn’t replace old Marines. For some reason, the baseless fearmongering that Marines would get squatted has now morphed into weird masochistic wishlisting they should get squatted just to spite hobbyists that still like them?

This thread is strange. Don’t like old-Marines, don’t buy them! Don’t like Primaris? Don’t buy them!

**The Newman**

Confirmed on a larger screen (baring resolution issues):

Intercessor Autobolters up to Assault 3.
Addition of Hand Flamer to Intercessor Serg options.
Aggressors at W3.
Centurions at W4.
Inceptors at W3.
Inceptor Bolt Carbide option on the Eliminator serg is 24" assault 1 s4 ap 1 d2.
LR Redeemer Flamestorm Cannons jumped to 12"
The Assault Bolter appears to have dropped in points. Might be an 8.
The Hurricane Bolter is still 10 sodding points.
Autobolter looks to still be 1 point.
Pretty sure Tac marines did actually drop to 12.

And most of the Indominus Crusade detachment looks to have just been added to the base strats.

**robbienw**

Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.

I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.

We wouldn't complain so much if they weren't pushed so hard as the replacements to our current collections. That's the rub.

except GW isn't psuhing them hard as replacements. they've repeatedly said these are reinforcements, and supplements etc the people pushing them as replacements, seem to be the player base, whom are convinced "GW IS GONNA STEAL MY OLD MARINES" meanwhile I've always maintained GW'll produce both because they'll be happy to double dip as long as old marines are selling

I hope you're right, however, those Primaris models are features suuuuper heavily in the majority of the GW pics, as far as I can tell. And from what I've heard about the fluff, normal marines may not be being made any more. If someone can correct me on this point, I'd definitely welcome it.

Well firstly GW stated in the primaris faq that primaris marines aren't replacements but are rather an addition.

Secondly the BA codex stated that they are making normal marines alongside primaris.

They also stated in the 500 stores celebration article:

"Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines"

So currently its a fluff fact new classic marines are still being made in universe.

**Insectum7**

^Great! Thanks for that.

Looking forward to the codex as it will probably expand on what's going on.

**PenitentJake**

The upgrading of beloved characters does remove units from the old marine category, so to that extent, players who favour old marines genuinely are losing something.

But I do believe that old marine units will continue to get attention and support once they burn out Primaris releases. There are a lot of factors to eighth that suggest to me that it really is GW's intention to stay in one edition long enough to really expand and improve the range.

The point about primaris lacking the identities of old marines is very valid. But that's why I love the detachment system so much more than the old force organization charts. Primaris are deployed as detachments to reinforce existing marine chapters who have their centuries old traditions intact.

It gives you that layer of separation that might let you feel that the new isn't contaminating the old, with the exception of the characters how are crossing over. Try to thing of them as being the ones who are there to train primaris squads in the traditions of the chapter.

Anyway, I hope it works out; I don't collect marines, and I only have the kill teams that came in sets like Tooth and Claw and Spacehulk. I think it would be a real shame to lose all that material.

**Grimtuff**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.

False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.

Except Primaris didn’t replace old Marines. For some reason, the baseless fearmongering that Marines would get squatted has now morphed into weird masochistic wishlisting they should get squatted just to spite hobbyists that still like them?

This thread is strange. Don’t like old-Marines, don’t buy them! Don’t like Primaris? Don’t buy them!

Did you miss the word “ultimate”, you know what that means in that context, right? The writing is on the wall that the end goal of all of this is to replace the current range with Primaris. Not tomorrow. Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen. If you don’t see that then you might need a hand getting out of that Egyptian river you’ve fallen in.

**pelicaniforce**

Death Company, Wulven, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing, space wolf "wolves", all are only possible due to geneseed mutations that have been removed due to the primaris being so perfect and pure. Gabriel Seth of the Flesh tearers explains it perfectly in the book Devestation of Baal, "these aren't blood Angels, they're Ultramarines in red paint. Without the flaw what makes them any different than any other marine out there?" Paraphrase of course. So all the stuff that makes the chapters unique, the wolf wolf of the wolf wolf Space Wolves get, the tragic vampire Noble Savage line blood Angels get, the dark brooding secrets of the Dark Angels, you get the idea. None of those are really possible with Primaris. Any geneseed mutations is fixed, any tragic backstory or history is ruined because the primaris don't care, they didn't do it. It basically kills a lot of what little justification each marine codex has for being it's own book. Heck even the dreads show GW either intentionally or unintentionally squatting the lore, with the new dreads burning their pilots out quickly, meaning other than old marines the primaris have no way to retain their most ancient warriors.

I’m really pleased with this. I’ve played blood angels, and I made sure to play them as ostensibly normal marines with a secret and strange rituals. When the vanguard assault marine models first came out someone did some amazing space wolves, totally unconverted. To me it’s a lot more immersive and characterful this way. Vanilla marines got jump vets when they had previously been BA exclusive, but I think that just means they should have background and painting sections where those are mainly BA units, much like white scars and BT have or don’t have certain units, or iron hands and imperial fists do or don’t have them.

The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint.

While it is an excuse for the market-demanded rescaling of marines, which is vaguely creative, this is definitely not an exercise in creativity, you’re right. This is a product refinement and I don’t see any reason not to use third party, recasting, pirating, homegrown games, etc. It’s not like we’re aupporting an artistic endeavor, once maybe but now the studio output is from people who’ve themselves been marketed to.

**Sunny Side Up**

Grimtuff wrote:

Did you miss the word “ultimate”, you know what that means in that context, right? The writing is on the wall that the end goal of all of this is to replace the current range with Primaris. Not tomorrow. Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen. If you don’t see that then you might need a hand getting out of that Egyptian river you’ve fallen in.

#

Except it's not gonna be 5 years, nor 10 years, nor anywhere on any realistic planning horizon current laid out in Nottingham. Unless GW as a company goes bust or 40K as a game gets dumped, they'll stay.

Do normal plastic Marines sell better than finecast Shining Spears or Dark Reapers sculpts from the early 90s, better than Pewter Sisters of Battle or similar miniatures aged 20+ years? They sure as hell do, and as long as they sell, they'll remain in the catalogue. If GW as a company survives, you'll be able Tac Marines.

Arguably, it might well have been the main reason to not make Primaris an aesthetic-only replacement for normal Marines in the way, say, new Dark Eldar replaced the ancient sculpts or whatever, because GW doesn't wanna squat a profitable miniature range.

Old-Marines might no longer be the No. 1 seller for GW 10 years from now, but they'll probably still outsell AoS Beastmen or Necrons or random Blood Bowl teams, and as long as they do, they'll stay.

**BoomWolf**

Grimtuff wrote:
Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen.

Dude...
in 5 years SO much changes. ffs 5 years ago 7th came out. the game change DRASTICALLY in 5 years.

And even your doomsaying is "not in 5 years".
So when? 10 years from now? 15? 20?

5 years ago DG havocs, raptors and bikers were a thing, they aren't now.
5 years ago admech were not an army. neither were GSC or IK.
4 years ago khorne deamonkin were an army that existed, 2 years ago they stopped being.
6 years ago you could build a legal army that had both space marines and crisis suits in it. now you can't.

The game freaking changes. things that were stop being and things that wren't come into existence.
Complaining that something that was around for freaking 25 years already MIGHT stop being a thing 10 years from now isn't idiotic, its outright mental.

How freaking annoying can marine boys be that they get all the love and attention, and then complain about it.

And then some moron comes with the "sure, they don't actually remove them, but they stop supporting them and releasing new stuff for them."
And I want to punch the fool, because the "stop support" classic marines get is still more than entire factions have. heck, if you split classic marines and primaris to two codcies after the new release wave-they would EACH be bigger than the entire necron race. before taking into account BA,DA,SW,GK and DW making more even more marines.

I wish primaris were not a thing, I really do. but not because the change is bad, primaris are just better than classic marines.
Because I am SICK AND TIRED OF MARINES. there are too much, FAR too much. the game more of everything that ISNT marines. the only marines needing expansion are the god-spesific chaos armies, two of them currently still missing and the other two woefully underdeveloped.

**Daedalus81**

Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

**BrianDavion**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

yeah this was a across the board boost.

**Insectum7**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?

**Daedalus81**

Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?

Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.

**Insectum7**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?

Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.

Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.

**fraser1191**

Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?

Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.

Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.

Turn 2 UM drop pod full of grav devastators

**BrianDavion**

fraser1191 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?

Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.

Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.

Turn 2 UM drop pod full of grav devastators

why turn 2? Drop pods can come in turn 1 now

**Daedalus81**

BrianDavion wrote:

why turn 2? Drop pods can come in turn 1 now

For the UM doctrine to ignore move penalties. There is a stratagem to change doctrines, but I haven't seen the wording yet. Supposedly it only goes in reverse.

**Wyldhunt**

I love the new primaris rules and models, BUT their fluff and the seeming mechanical emphasis on them kind of leaves old marines in a weird place.

If I could just use my old marines as primaris, I'd be pretty content, but the fact that they still have their own distinct rules makes that confusing. If they were to kill old marines, I'd have a bunch of 2A 2W marines with AP-1 bolters, and I'd be pretty happy about it.

As-is, I'm reluctant to mix primaris and old marines together for fluff and modeling reasons. I kind of wish Guilliman had just shipped out a new mark of snazzy "primaris brand armor" to give GW an excuse to update the models without introducing some of the fluff wonkyness of introducing better-than-normal marines.