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LeperColony wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.

Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?

Because sometimes less skilled person B can make improvements to brilliant person A's creation.

Martel732 wrote:

LeperColony wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.

Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?

Because sometimes less skilled person B can make improvements to brilliant person A's creation.

Yeah, that's like saying I'm going to come up with the unified theory of everything that eluded Einstein. And I'm going to do it on my lunch break.

Is it possible? Yeah. But am I buying my ticket to Stockholm to accept my Nobel Prize? Not anytime soon.

on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?

No, it's not. It's how science works every day. Primaris are improvement, not a radical paradigm shift.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?

I'm 1000% more optimistic about primaris with 3W gravis guys. The devil is always in the details. 3W is the magic number in 8th.

In a couple of years "Primaris" and "Original" marines won't be a thing. They'll all be the same 2-wound, 2-attack big marines.

I mean ffs, most of them are cross-compatible already.

Bet you the fluff will get vague on the whole "Primaris" thing and it'll be a 'phase of upgrades' or some handwaved statement that will barely be mentioned.

I'll be happy just to laugh when GW comes out and says "all marines will be primaris scale" so I can laugh heartily at the sad, shrieking grognards that want to act like their kids' college fund has been lit on fire because their old toy soldiers don't look as good as the new toy soldiers, even though their old toy soldiers will still be usable.

That's honestly something I've seen. I watched some guy at least a couple of decades my senior whinge and mewl about Primaris marines and GW ruining his "investment" in old marines- this individual cried like someone had taken his family dog and all his family heirlooms and loaded them up into his classic corvette he'd been restoring since the 80's and just had a squad of Hellblasters unload into it while laughing.

I have models from 2nd ed, so I think I've gotten my usage of them. My problem with primaris is that they were dog poop on the table. I can lose with old bois I already own, thanks GeeDubs.

Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?

I don't know. I thought it was for all gravis.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?

pretty sure they did. as Martel said all Gravis got an extra wound. which actually makes them a pretty good choice and makes them, pretty tanky

That's all I really wanted for a long time. The extra stuff is just gravy. Don't my make 45 pt model die to a single dissy shot. It makes it unplayable. 2 shots is fine. The difference is staggering.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?

All Gravis, so yeah. Even the Gravis captain has a wound more.

That makes even that model much closer to hitting the table. Especially now that lack of TH access is not a dealbreaker.

So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.

 Crimson wrote:

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake

You probably nailed another horrible trend. I don't know if it's fanboyism for the favorite sue/stu of the author, or just imiating warmahordes but it's bad, cheap and makes the galaxy feel smalller.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
In a couple of years "Primaris" and "Original" marines won't be a thing. They'll all be the same 2-wound, 2-attack big marines.

This is possible. But before that, GW will squeeze every dime from marine players while they say "thank you!".

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.

can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.

 Crimson wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.

Most of my characters have a bolt pistol. Maybe inferno on a good day. He's there to hand out the aura, not die, and be the sheriff.

 Ishagu wrote:
It took 10 thousand years.

If you are just ignoring the original point raised by that post, why bothering to answer?

BrianDavion wrote:

can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.

I have one. But he is ugly, the pose is awkward. Calgar will be a much better stating point.

I enjoyed painting mine. Never use him, but it was fun to paint. (poorly)

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.

I have one. But he is ugly, the pose is awkward. Calgar will be a much better stating point.

I'm kinda hoping for a new grav captain (maybe with a better weapons selection) in a few years when the big grav release comes.

The two damage sword and the fist isn't a bad combo. Esp with the TH nerf.

Martel732 wrote:
The two damage sword and the fist isn't a bad combo. Esp with the TH nerf.

When would you use the sword? It is pretty damn situational and certainly not worth the points.

When I want to hit on a 2+. I guess it's a little better for BA now that I think about it. Certainly stabbing at PB. I don't want to miss or roll 1 damage.

Martel732 wrote:
When I want to hit on a 2+. I guess it's a little better for BA now that I think about it. Certainly stabbing at PB. I don't want to miss or roll 1 damage.

I think that in most cases wounding better on the fist gets equal or better results than hitting on 2+. But yeah, the BA bonus certainly makes the sword much more viable.

The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.

CapRichard wrote:
The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.

Yep. I'm pleased that there finally is a decent relic that (at least some) Primaris characters can take.

There is a lot of stuff relic wise to decompress. You have general relics, supplement founding relics, generic successor relics, you can make sergeants more impactful with special equipment, give warlord traits to other characters...

I'm definitely going to dig deep to find how to best fit the rules to my DIY chapter

 Crimson wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.

Yep. I'm pleased that there finally is a decent relic that (at least some) Primaris characters can take.

there are a few good primaris relics now, the stalker boltgun and auto boltgun relics are pretty solid choices too

BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?

That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.