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 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?

That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.

eh I dunno the new codex clearly gives old marines some nice stuff but what you hear is "OHH MY GOD THEY BUFFED PRIMARIS AND ONLY PRIMARIS" the advertising focuses on primaris because the primaris got new stuff, but that only makes sense

Grav buff is nontrivial. Only problem is that in demon/ork meta, I cant' justify the cost.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?

That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.

eh I dunno the new codex clearly gives old marines some nice stuff but what you hear is "OHH MY GOD THEY BUFFED PRIMARIS AND ONLY PRIMARIS" the advertising focuses on primaris because the primaris got new stuff, but that only makes sense

I agree, with the new codex methinks my standing army will come out pretty nicely, and I'm looking forward to it. But it sure seems like most of the promo is all Primaris, all the time. That said, they did show off "classics" during their "Updated chapter Tactics" promo, presumably because they don't have painted Primaris for them

Personally, I'll be fine with a minimal sort of legacy support.

Well, also for threads titled "Can GW just kill classic marines already?" to not pop up.

Classic marines are fine. I just dont' care for how they play in 8th. They have so many kits, the only path forward I see is slow soft squatting.

Martel732 wrote:
Classic marines are fine. I just dont' care for how they play in 8th. They have so many kits, the only path forward I see is slow soft squatting.

They could kill 90% of the kits and I'd be fine with it.

To keep:
Tactical Box
Asault Box
Devastator Box
Razorback
Predator
Land Raider
Bikes
Attack Bike
Land Speeder
Boxnaught
Command Box
Whirlwind

Redo:
Terminators (new kit w/all options)
Scouts (new kit w/all options)
Librarian/Chaplain Kit
Captain Kit
Techmarine+Servitors Kit

I think the Chapter Specific upgrade kits for Intercessors fit them anyways.

Optional: Recut kits to match current CSM scale. But DON'T skimp on the kit options.

Well I for one am very pleased to see that all the non-Primaris units are still in the core SM codex, and benefit from all the new rules. I disagree that non-Primaris SM are on life support. Sure GW might only be releasing Primaris units, but all of the core units look here to stay. I like the new rules, and the format, and I hope this means GW are planning to leave the core codex alone and only release supplements when they release new Primaris units. That way people can choose to pay for new rules if they want to use the new units. With this release, even Primaris players are having to pay for rules they've already paid for. I can't see people being happy to do that again any time soon, especially as the supplements mean shelling out even more this time.

Come to Horus Heresy, where REAL Marines rule.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Come to Horus Heresy, where REAL Marines rule.

Yeah! Where REAL marines get completely devastated by Phosphex artillery!

 Stormonu wrote:

… I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.

I have it on good authority from someone inside GW that this is pretty much exactly what happened. Obviously there's no way anybody's going to be saying this publicly though.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

… I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.

I have it on good authority from someone inside GW that this is pretty much exactly what happened. Obviously there's no way anybody's going to be saying this publicly though.

Yeah it has got to have been what happened orginally

Profits are falling badly - Lets not do anything reasonable, engage with customers on social media, make stuff people have been asking for for years, etc. Lets instead redo the whole marine line and make the fools rebuy their whole marine collections again. This is very Kirby old GW way of doing things.

It would also explain why they designed the whole range at the same time and have years worth more of primaris stuff ready to go, as jes goodwin spoke about in the shadowspear Voxcast; it was orginally meant to be released all at the same time/in a short time frame.

Then Kevin Roundtree takes the helm and sees how much of bad idea this is.

You can't release 30 kits simultaneously. People have a hobby budget, monthly or annual limits.

You have to release the models peace-meal otherwise you end up competing with yourself.

I haven't bought some stuff I was really interested in precisely because of the crowded GW release schedule.

Indeed - precisely one of the reasons it would have been a bad idea.

Equally, it also would have been a terrible idea to replace the entire marine range with its excellent variety with just the 2017 primaris units released, and then say you have to wait 15 years for the variety to be built up again.

It won't be 15.

Probably more like 3. There are already 30+ Primaris units. They only things they lack are:

-Flyer
-Jetbikes
-A few more HQ options and wargear

You know what i meant.

But it could be 15 though. There are a lot more units to go to equal the variation of classic marines as a whole. Including all the chapter variant kits (they are massively lacking in this regard). I am talking solely from a model perspective.

Its been already been over 2 years.

 Ishagu wrote:
You can't release 30 kits simultaneously. People have a hobby budget, monthly or annual limits.

You have to release the models peace-meal otherwise you end up competing with yourself.

I haven't bought some stuff I was really interested in precisely because of the crowded GW release schedule.

Old GW would not have cared if you could keep up, they would only demand you buy.

At initial release though, they would only have ensured that you have at least one unit per slot; variety and choice is a luxury that can be built on. If they had gone with the insanity of “replace not supplement”, they most likely would have done one option per slot release, and then an additional release every 2-3 months until they had a stable line ... and then wondered why 8E marine sales were flagging so horribly.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake

You probably nailed another horrible trend. I don't know if it's fanboyism for the favorite sue/stu of the author, or just imiating warmahordes but it's bad, cheap and makes the galaxy feel smalller.

Yep. They forget a faceless history is in many ways bigger. Talk of conclave and synods and the like with politicking that takes up peoples lives is a lot more in the over the top gothic setting.

Also I hope they don't forget not everything should be explained.

All in all I have been disappointed by the whole storyline, especially as Astartes are these prideful dumb creatures that have reacted in far worse ways over far less, and yet have simply agree to their replacement, despite their faith being about them as the pinnacle of the Emperors vision and technology.

At the very least pack them off with a civil war or something.

having a living PRIMARCH and the god damned Custodes backing Primaris Marines tends to alleviate those concerns. especially the custodes. the july white dwarf is pretty educational for that. I reccomend reading it

BrianDavion wrote:
having a living PRIMARCH and the god damned Custodes backing Primaris Marines tends to alleviate those concerns. especially the custodes. the july white dwarf is pretty educational for that. I reccomend reading it

Even then this is not a unified organisation but one that routinely loses whole chapters to turning renegade.

Wonder how they will Primarisify Carcharodons...

Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.

Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

Martel732 wrote:
The rules have also been a middle finger to BA. But im supposed to be upset with primaris?

Of all the factions to complain, I didn't think it would be BA. You get an extra attack on the charge from Shock Assault, and extra wound on your gravis armor units, and no corresponding point cost increase. Plus those drop pods have re-enabled your turn 1 charges that BA players love so dearly. You even got access to the new Phobos armor units (although admittedly, they don't seem to match the BA playstyle very well)

I can understand why DeathWatch is upset - they would love to have the Phobos stuff and lost out and Combat Doctrines cuts into their 'special snowflake zone' of adapting thier bonuses to match the opponent, but BA seems well off in comparison to DW, GK, or even DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

Best part of Deliverance Lost was when Corax realizes that not all the genetech used in the Primarch/Space Marine process was originally human DNA based and that some came from Xenos species. Your precious marines are already a little Xeno inside.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.

You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.

You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'

Civil War, within a Civil war. within a Civil war.

It's like one of these russian puppets.

I have to say, the whole notion of my army being eventually squatted has actually reinvigorated my interest in the ol' Eternity Wardens. I think there's something romantic in a story that's coming to end. My chapter won't be getting any Primaris marines at all, because they've refused them, having decided there's no more place for them in this brave new world of gods and monsters. They will instead sell their lives dearly, slowly diminishing with each passing year, before the inevitable end.

To that end, I've started bolstering my army with old 80s and 90s miniatures, honored relics being called to battle one last time before the torch is passed to new chapters. It seems noble and fitting, considering how much Imperial religion is focused around the obsessive worship and veneration of death.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.

You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'

Willing to bet the Custodes who personally guard the Golden Throne acted as witnesses to the whole thing.

Besides, with the Imperium torn in two with whole chapter worlds lost to the Warp a civil war would break the Imperium harder than the fall of the Eldar did them.

A new Heresy/Badab War would please the grognards, but ruin the Imperium's chance to pose a reasonable resistance to the threats against humanity.