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Ever since I picked Dark Angels in 2013 as my first army I was happy with that choice.
I liked the lore, the colour schemes, the special nature of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing.
The unique models, the only jetbike and the knightly feel together with the utter hatred for Chaos made them the ideal chapter for me.

I was "lucky" enough that a few years down the line AdMech was released which took the spot light away from the DA, but I expect this year to at least catch up to my planned AdMech army and have a good amount of options ready.

Now I have to start to consider if I want to cross the Rubicon Primaris.

While I like the DA, I cannot convince myself to really like the primaris marines.
From fluff to model to rules... They just don't seem "40k" to me. Too much of a Deus Ex Machina, too much of hover craft and actual sci-fi with hover tanks, visors, this and that pattern of boltgun, infiltrate here, scout there and the ridiculous looks of the likes of the Repulsor. But I also do not want to invest in a factually dead model line. Yes, we will probably have rules for years to come, but I dont expect to see ANY new model, ever.
Considering how DA treat their Techmarines I have a hard time swallowing they'd accept Primaris anywhere except as a cannon fodder, despite the book that tells us otherwise in the end.

On the other hand I do NOT want to bail on the army, not at least because I have a few commission painted models (a stunning Ravenwing Fire Raptor) and the Crucible of Wrath, a DA aligned Freeblade). Having a marine army in itself with terminators etc. is also something I want...
Also, being the first of my armies the paint job on some models is... atrocious. So updating my army with new models and dismissing the old marines has an appeal too...

All in all, I feel I am between a rock and a hard place.
Had I justed started, I'd be free to decide.
Had I already gotten my 10k worth of DA, I'd have all the options I need.
But with my 3k or so I have a really hard time to decide what to do.

And now next month White Dwarf promises some DA Primaris... I need to decide what to do.
Bail and sell?
Stay with Oldmarines?
Go with Primaris?
Have DW and RW be as they are and create a battle company of Primaris Greenwing?

What would you do?

If you aren't feeling them don't buy them. Rules change, the models you own are for keeping. They're also really expensive so in my opinion it's mandatory to love the model for me to buy it, regardless of rules.

I happen to love Primaris (generally, some exceptions!) and they are what I got back into the game for. But everyone has different tastes and that's totally fine. Go with your gut.

Only you can really decide if you want to add Primaris to your army or keep them as they are. There is still no indication that non-Primaris marines are going anywhere.

What I can suggest is maybe picking up some easy-to-build Intercessors to build and paint. That way you have a better idea how they are going to look if you do decide to get more.

Other than that, you could always could always make them a successor chapter to Dark Angels. I personally think the Blades of Vengeance is smart looking color scheme. Game play wise they are just part of the army since they still use all the Dark Angels rules. Lore/fluff wise, you can just say the Primaris chapter is working very closely with their parent chapter. It isn't like Dark Angels successors are that far away from basically extensions of the Dark Angel Legion with a slightly different coat of paint and superficial changes in traditions and customs.

If my gut were clear in telling me what to do it would be easy
But it's about as unable to decide as my brain

That successor chapter with the Blades of Vengeance though is a neat idea that could potentially solve all my problems....
I will have to run that through gut and brain a few times...

Many thanks for the advice so far!

I guess it would depend on how you play the game. While the Primaris line lacks the full range of gameplay options (they're closing these gaps pretty quickly), they are generally better across the board. I know some people will hop in here shouting that they're not, but...they are. GW is making sure of it. Not blatantly, but this is how old marines will be slowly discarded.

The models and rules could be around for a long time, but as Primaris stuff comes out you'll be slowly outgunned, out-teched, out-ruled, etc. You get some nice boosts with the new codex, but as the power creep continues, old school marines will fall further and further behind. Hell, there are Primaris units which out-do other Primaris units already

If you play narratively there will be enough "game" left for your old marines. If you play tournament or hard-core 40K it's unlikely your army will be effective (they're already suffering now, though the new codex will bump them for another year or so).

The other option is to de-Primaris most of the Primaris stuff with some work and establish your own "vision" of Primaris. Companies like Kromlech make some really nice Dark Angels style Primaris bodies/heads etc. They're full Primaris sized but wearing robes, tabards, and they sell Dark Angel Inquisitor style heads, etc. I picked up two packs of the bodies (5 models each) for my buddy so he can kit-bash characters instead of paying friggin' $35 a mini. He now has an appropriate Dark Angels looking Primaris set of chaplain, lieutenant, standard bearer, captain, etc.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Luckily I play Renegades and thus can choose from the Chaos codex for some other units if needed, but I've more or less quit 40K again for a while.

as i see it, primaris will eventualy take over the whole sm range. what GW cant primaris, they will remove from production over the years to come.

old marines will never be from a rule spoint as good as primaris, else there would be currently no selling point in primaris, so it boils down to HOW do YOU play?
regulars who dont follow the meta?, casuals who play for the game sake or friends only?; stick to old marines.

any sort of drop-in`s in the club or turnaments; you have to go primaris. start with a 50/50 mix and go more primaris over the time.


i faced the exact same question myself for iron hands. i dont own any but old marines have both GW and 3rd party bionic part support. primaris has zero sutch things and an IH army whitout bionics replacments is not an IH army.
so i dropped the idea completely and dug up my small 3th edition deamonhunters. now im daily scouting ebay for oop metal grey knights, cuz they are visual bad ass cool to me and i will be playing the army super casual/narrative.

I'm at the same crossroads as a DA player. I was drawn to DA because of the unique ravenwing/deathwing, and gothic robed bois. All of these are getting pushed to the side with the primaris line.

 Thairne wrote:
Stay with Oldmarines?

Definitely do this.
You've already got 3k pts of DA. So doing this costs you nothing (beyond buying a new codex occasionally). Play with you're existing DA. Or, if you're in the mood, play with your Admech. Add units/models to each force as you please.

 Thairne wrote:
Have DW and RW be as they are and create a battle company of Primaris Greenwing?

Maybe do this.
Definitely keep your RW & DW. Eventually add Primaris if you find enough that appeal to you. And if you never do? {shugs} Funnel that $ into whatever you do like.

 Thairne wrote:
What would you do?

I 100% intend to play my own DA & other old marine armies for as long as possible. I got rules (good/bad/other)? I'm on the table.
As for the Primaris? I don't give a crap about the fluff. Haven't since around v.3 So GW could write just about anything & it wouldn't sway me one way or the other. I look at models 1st, rules 2nd. Fluff maybe (but for GW stuff not at all). If I like enough of a lines models I'll make the rules work for me. Right now? The Primaris don't have enough models that I like. This may change in the future. At that point I'll decide what to do: Add a whole new army of only Primaris, add squads to existing forces, or both? Ditching an existing collection of minis is not going to happen.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
as i see it, primaris will eventualy take over the whole sm range. what GW cant primaris, they will remove from production over the years to come.

old marines will never be from a rule spoint as good as primaris, else there would be currently no selling point in primaris, so it boils down to HOW do YOU play?
regulars who dont follow the meta?, casuals who play for the game sake or friends only?; stick to old marines.

any sort of drop-in`s in the club or turnaments; you have to go primaris. start with a 50/50 mix and go more primaris over the time.


i faced the exact same question myself for iron hands. i dont own any but old marines have both GW and 3rd party bionic part support. primaris has zero sutch things and an IH army whitout bionics replacments is not an IH army.
so i dropped the idea completely and dug up my small 3th edition deamonhunters. now im daily scouting ebay for oop metal grey knights, cuz they are visual bad ass cool to me and i will be playing the army super casual/narrative.

frozendwarf is, put bluntly full of gak. Yes GW isn't likely to make new old marine minis but they're not abandoning them (keep in mind shortly before primaris where released all 3 core types of marines, tac, dev and assault squads got a minor revamp. so the mini kits are new) Primaris are not "MASSIVLY BETTER" then old Marines (intercessors are widely considered the be slightly better then tac marines but Tac Marines definatly have a place)

old marines aren't going anywhere anytime soon. keep playing what you like.

I saw a reddit post and in it it said something about Primaris DA in September. I'm gonna try and find it


Edit: Found it

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/co52p2/it_most_definitely_is_primaris_dark_angels_next/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

I'd wait and see what this is first i think

 fraser1191 wrote:
I saw a reddit post and in it it said something about Primaris DA in September. I'm gonna try and find it

you did yeah, my guess is it's just an article on DA Primaris and maybe an update to their codex (if you don;t have the 8th edition dark angel codex I'd advise holding off buying it)

Might be a supplement for them or something

Honestly I think the primaris look much closer to how space marines should.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Might be a supplement for them or something

proably a 2.0 codex.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Only you can really decide if you want to add Primaris to your army or keep them as they are. There is still no indication that non-Primaris marines are going anywhere.

What I can suggest is maybe picking up some easy-to-build Intercessors to build and paint. That way you have a better idea how they are going to look if you do decide to get more.

Other than that, you could always could always make them a successor chapter to Dark Angels. I personally think the Blades of Vengeance is smart looking color scheme. Game play wise they are just part of the army since they still use all the Dark Angels rules. Lore/fluff wise, you can just say the Primaris chapter is working very closely with their parent chapter. It isn't like Dark Angels successors are that far away from basically extensions of the Dark Angel Legion with a slightly different coat of paint and superficial changes in traditions and customs.

NOT the Easy to build. Get the full kit. I don't think the easy to build's come with the Auxiliary Grenade Launchers.

If I were making a DA Combi-wing Army today. I would and I'd hate it, but I'd suffer through until things got better again - "luckily" my Double-Wing is back-burnered as I catch up my UM on Primaris releases. I'd think about Soup'ing in a Loyal 32 of Guardsmen for the CP Gen, and then getting my Death/Raven Wing forces I wanted in some 1CP detach'es.

Looking towards the future, I'd expect to see some -Wing primaris - they just haven't included much of anything that matches up the Elite/FA DW/RW theme. But I'd expect they're coming. In the mean time flesh out your green wing.

the easy to build kits he's not proposing buying to use, but to test paint schemes on.

BrianDavion wrote:
the easy to build kits he's not proposing buying to use, but to test paint schemes on.

Oh man, that would drive me nuts. I don't mind paying GW prices, but I'm not doing it for something I'm not going to put in the to-be-used collection.

I really recommend getting a full Intercessor kit and delve into your bits box. I have heard a lot of people say that the Primaris are too clean and not gothic/knightly/grimdark/feral enough. Whilst I'm a huge fan of the Primaris models, I agree with that criticism. However, if you have some extra bits laying around, the Primaris are pretty damn easy to personalise and I've had a blast doing just that. Most fun with Space Marine models I've had in a decade.

BrianDavion wrote:
the easy to build kits he's not proposing buying to use, but to test paint schemes on.

This. I think $15 U.S. isn't too bad of a try and buy compared to a full $60 box. If he does ultimately decide to bail, he is out like a restaurant meal or a couple of drinks. But a whole box of them make the sunk-cost fallacy a lot easier to rationalize even though he is still not really having fun. For me, I didn't really like Primaris until I actually started building and painting them up. So, I think someone of the fence should have them in their hands and really get familiar with the models in a way that only building and painting allows. The easy-to-build element isn't great for this, but they are fairly unique sculpts so if he does decide to press on and get more they can plug in fairly well with more. If he decides not to, well I don't think $15 is too much to ask to find out what he should do with his future time.

I'd say just get the regular kit. It's not that hard to strip paint off a plastic mini if you don't like the paint scheme and it's only a bit harder to have the mini fall apart by dissolving the super glue.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:Only you can really decide if you want to add Primaris to your army or keep them as they are. There is still no indication that non-Primaris marines are going anywhere.

What I can suggest is maybe picking up some easy-to-build Intercessors to build and paint. That way you have a better idea how they are going to look if you do decide to get more.

Other than that, you could always could always make them a successor chapter to Dark Angels. I personally think the Blades of Vengeance is smart looking color scheme. Game play wise they are just part of the army since they still use all the Dark Angels rules. Lore/fluff wise, you can just say the Primaris chapter is working very closely with their parent chapter. It isn't like Dark Angels successors are that far away from basically extensions of the Dark Angel Legion with a slightly different coat of paint and superficial changes in traditions and customs.

Elbows wrote:I guess it would depend on how you play the game. While the Primaris line lacks the full range of gameplay options (they're closing these gaps pretty quickly), they are generally better across the board. I know some people will hop in here shouting that they're not, but...they are. GW is making sure of it. Not blatantly, but this is how old marines will be slowly discarded.

The models and rules could be around for a long time, but as Primaris stuff comes out you'll be slowly outgunned, out-teched, out-ruled, etc. You get some nice boosts with the new codex, but as the power creep continues, old school marines will fall further and further behind. Hell, there are Primaris units which out-do other Primaris units already

If you play narratively there will be enough "game" left for your old marines. If you play tournament or hard-core 40K it's unlikely your army will be effective (they're already suffering now, though the new codex will bump them for another year or so).

The other option is to de-Primaris most of the Primaris stuff with some work and establish your own "vision" of Primaris. Companies like Kromlech make some really nice Dark Angels style Primaris bodies/heads etc. They're full Primaris sized but wearing robes, tabards, and they sell Dark Angel Inquisitor style heads, etc. I picked up two packs of the bodies (5 models each) for my buddy so he can kit-bash characters instead of paying friggin' $35 a mini. He now has an appropriate Dark Angels looking Primaris set of chaplain, lieutenant, standard bearer, captain, etc.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Luckily I play Renegades and thus can choose from the Chaos codex for some other units if needed, but I've more or less quit 40K again for a while.

I think it is funny how much disagreement there is on if oldmarines will be squatted. People are completely certain one way or another, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way inside GW.

redboi wrote:I'm at the same crossroads as a DA player. I was drawn to DA because of the unique ravenwing/deathwing, and gothic robed bois. All of these are getting pushed to the side with the primaris line.

This is reason a lot of people don't like primaris models, they are skewed more towards sci-fi than than any other marine in the sci-fi gothic divide that makes 40k. I would have a long hard look at the DA primaris lieutenant, because that is the shape that all future DA primaris mini's will take. If you like that aesthetic for your low-mid tier characters, you will like the DA primaris line

BrianDavion wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
as i see it, primaris will eventualy take over the whole sm range. what GW cant primaris, they will remove from production over the years to come.

old marines will never be from a rule spoint as good as primaris, else there would be currently no selling point in primaris, so it boils down to HOW do YOU play?
regulars who dont follow the meta?, casuals who play for the game sake or friends only?; stick to old marines.

any sort of drop-in`s in the club or turnaments; you have to go primaris. start with a 50/50 mix and go more primaris over the time.


i faced the exact same question myself for iron hands. i dont own any but old marines have both GW and 3rd party bionic part support. primaris has zero sutch things and an IH army whitout bionics replacments is not an IH army.
so i dropped the idea completely and dug up my small 3th edition deamonhunters. now im daily scouting ebay for oop metal grey knights, cuz they are visual bad ass cool to me and i will be playing the army super casual/narrative.

frozendwarf is, put bluntly full of gak. Yes GW isn't likely to make new old marine minis but they're not abandoning them (keep in mind shortly before primaris where released all 3 core types of marines, tac, dev and assault squads got a minor revamp. so the mini kits are new) Primaris are not "MASSIVLY BETTER" then old Marines (intercessors are widely considered the be slightly better then tac marines but Tac Marines definatly have a place)

old marines aren't going anywhere anytime soon. keep playing what you like.

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Well, I’m feeling a powerful draw to them, spesh as it now looks like I can make a competent all Primaris army.

So, accept my bias and......

BrianDavion wrote:

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Codex leaks are out: https://youtu.be/V3mDlarDdcM?t=3807
Tacs and assualt marines are down to 12. I meant normal marine specific rules, of which there are none. While the new general rules will help normal marines a lot, I think there were intended to shore up primaris weak points.

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Codex leaks are out: https://youtu.be/V3mDlarDdcM?t=3807
Tacs and assualt marines are down to 12. I meant normal marine specific rules, of which there are none. While the new general rules will help normal marines a lot, I think there were intended to shore up primaris weak points.

I repeat, have you not been reading the previews of the upcoming codex? drop pods now strike on turn one. sternguard vets and terminators both have a fantastic new start tied to them each. Chaplains (which are hardly primaris only) get litanies.
Centurions gained another wound. White Scars have a specific part of their chapter tactic apply to bikes, which is old marines only. Gravitic amplification is a new strat that impacts units toting grav canons, which yet again is old marines only. old marines get a ton of toys this edition.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Codex leaks are out: https://youtu.be/V3mDlarDdcM?t=3807
Tacs and assualt marines are down to 12. I meant normal marine specific rules, of which there are none. While the new general rules will help normal marines a lot, I think there were intended to shore up primaris weak points.

I repeat, have you not been reading the previews of the upcoming codex? drop pods now strike on turn one. sternguard vets and terminators both have a fantastic new start tied to them each. Chaplains (which are hardly primaris only) get litanies.
Centurions gained another wound. White Scars have a specific part of their chapter tactic apply to bikes, which is old marines only. Gravitic amplification is a new strat that impacts units toting grav canons, which yet again is old marines only. old marines get a ton of toys this edition.

Gravis also got +1 wound, and I am not sure that grav weapons, drop pods, or bikes will stay normal marine exclusive. But none of these toys address the base line issues of normal marines.

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Codex leaks are out: https://youtu.be/V3mDlarDdcM?t=3807
Tacs and assualt marines are down to 12. I meant normal marine specific rules, of which there are none. While the new general rules will help normal marines a lot, I think there were intended to shore up primaris weak points.

I repeat, have you not been reading the previews of the upcoming codex? drop pods now strike on turn one. sternguard vets and terminators both have a fantastic new start tied to them each. Chaplains (which are hardly primaris only) get litanies.
Centurions gained another wound. White Scars have a specific part of their chapter tactic apply to bikes, which is old marines only. Gravitic amplification is a new strat that impacts units toting grav canons, which yet again is old marines only. old marines get a ton of toys this edition.

Gravis also got +1 wound, and I am not sure that grav weapons, drop pods, or bikes will stay normal marine exclusive. But none of these toys address the base line issues of normal marines.

just about everything that boosts priamris also boosts normal marines, and maybe drop pods, bikes and grav won';t remain normal marine forever but it will remain normal marine for the duration of this codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

When looking at the new codex changes to baseline marines, there were 3 possibilities:
* Keep marines at the same stat line and point cost - Marines are going to become increasingly uncompetitive and it is clear they are mostly ignored for the purposes of rules They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base will soon be squatted.
* Keep marines at the same point cost and give them some compensating ability - Marines will stay around for a long time to come in a competitive state and will continue to feel like marines.
* Marines get a points drop and no rules changes - Marine will stay competitive but will cease to feel like marines, they will become a kind of premium guardsman. They will loose their appeal to a portion of the player base and will be squatted after a longer period of time. This option has the bonus of opening up space in people's lists for new primaris marines.

GW picked door #3, and it's no surprise. Marine points cost (assuming it corresponds to ability in game) has been dropping through the generations. They used to be 15pts each in 3rd, by 6th they were 14pts, at the beginning of 8th they were 13pts and now they are 12. Marine cost as much as a 3 normal humans, when they are supposed to be worth 10 men or more. I get that some concessions have to be made for the rules, but this is ridiculous.

Have you not been reading the rules previews for the upcoming codex? I'd say the new codex is clsoer to option #2

Codex leaks are out: https://youtu.be/V3mDlarDdcM?t=3807
Tacs and assualt marines are down to 12. I meant normal marine specific rules, of which there are none. While the new general rules will help normal marines a lot, I think there were intended to shore up primaris weak points.

I repeat, have you not been reading the previews of the upcoming codex? drop pods now strike on turn one. sternguard vets and terminators both have a fantastic new start tied to them each. Chaplains (which are hardly primaris only) get litanies.
Centurions gained another wound. White Scars have a specific part of their chapter tactic apply to bikes, which is old marines only. Gravitic amplification is a new strat that impacts units toting grav canons, which yet again is old marines only. old marines get a ton of toys this edition.

Gravis also got +1 wound, and I am not sure that grav weapons, drop pods, or bikes will stay normal marine exclusive. But none of these toys address the base line issues of normal marines.

just about everything that boosts priamris also boosts normal marines, and maybe drop pods, bikes and grav won';t remain normal marine forever but it will remain normal marine for the duration of this codex.

Yes, they both receive the same boosts (mostly). The problem is that these boosts are meant to sure up primaris weaknesses, not normal marine weaknesses. Normal marines are still too vulnerable to massed weak firepower.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Normal marines are still too vulnerable to massed weak firepower.

The best defense is a good offense, and their offense is getting better and better and better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
Normal marines are still too vulnerable to massed weak firepower.

The best defense is a good offense, and their offense is getting better and better and better.

Honestly I think at this case he['s just suffering from a serious SERIOUS case of confirmation bias