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2019/08/19 21:01:38
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Totally agree. And if it becomes clear that Primaris are not replacing classics, I will stop complaining.
Is the old marines staying on life support via some sort of legacy rule support PDFs like the discontinued Fantasy armies and models good enough for you? Because that's what's probably going to happen in the long run. The new codex is pretty clear that in the lore the old marines are being phased away and I'm sure the game will follow with that eventually.
old marines being phasd out is a long term thing, I imagine we've got ten years minimum before that happens. Maybe longer. The "core" marine unit kits are actually still pretty new. (about 5 years old) so GW's got lots of life left in them. The things that to my mind should be the biggest worry are units unique to space marines with old kits. I expect the rhino, vindicator predator and base land raider are gonna be fine, given CSMs still use them, and SOBs use rhinos (we know a new sisters rhino is in development, expect to see the base new rhino used to give chaos rhinos, predators etc a face lift) what could be phased out of production is the razorback, whirlwind and other ancient SM kits that no one else uses.
IMHO it'd be in the best intreasts of loyalist marine players to call, loudly, for whirlwinds, razorbacks and the Land raider varients, to be given to chaos
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/19 21:22:22
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Personally I think people who claim Primaris are more Tau like while ignoring the custodes vehicle range are a bit odd. Primaris tanks may be grav it's true but they maintain the Imperial Aestetic, Bulky, somewhat crude looking etc. Custodes stuff is all smooth lines etc. Mix a custodes grav tank in with a buncha Tau units and tell someone whose never seen them ebfore it's a new tau tank and they might belive it
Again, Custodes having all that a-grav was supposed to show how exceptional they are.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Bring into the discussion the Custodes is weird. They were supposed to be extremely rare and elite, something unique to the throne. The use of the anti-grav tech for them is more to bring home this point, and contrast with the rest of the imperium. When everyone is special, none is.
They have more refined anti-grav that doesn't turn sand into glass from the pressure.
That's cool, and cool to know, too, but it's not really that huge or visible of a difference.
Asherian Command wrote: I mean technically we had a veteran unit of primaris intercessors.... as a stratagem! Hurrah?
That certainly was somewhat unsatisfying way to handle it. I hope that we get dedicated veteran units and kits later.
I agree, it's a bit like Skarboyz and Ardboyz for the orks, especially in execution rule-wise for the latter. But I agree this will improve over time at least for the marines.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/19 21:27:22
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2019/08/19 22:05:26
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: old marines being phasd out is a long term thing, I imagine we've got ten years minimum before that happens. Maybe longer. The "core" marine unit kits are actually still pretty new. (about 5 years old) so GW's got lots of life left in them.
If we're talking the lifespan of Warp Spiders, we're talking 15 more years.
When will the complaining stop? Next year? Maybe the one after that?
Oceans of tears and enough whinging to birth a new Chaos God. That's what most of this topic has been.
You'll all be glad to hear I've accumulated over 4k points of Primaris. Doing my part to support GW.
I don't like every model of course, and I don't buy the ones I don't care for. I just don't feel the need to complain about them in every topic, or whinge about the lore as though 40k was some biblical text mired in unchangeable Dogma.
Of course it should be said that not everyone is this way. There are some valid criticisms. Shame there's an even greater number of unreasonable, biased and repetitive complaining.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/19 22:15:06
-~Ishagu~-
2019/08/19 22:22:37
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Ishagu wrote: When will the complaining stop? Next year? Maybe the one after that? Oceans of tears and enough whinging to birth a new Chaos God. That's what most of this topic has been.
You'll all be glad to hear I've accumulated over 4k points of Primaris. Doing my part to support GW. I don't like every model of course, and I don't buy the ones I don't care for. I just don't feel the need to complain about them in every topic, or whinge about the lore as though 40k was some biblical text mired in unchangeable Dogma.
Of course it should be said that not everyone is this way. There are some valid criticisms. Shame there's an even greater number of unreasonable, biased and repetitive complaining.
Did you see me or other post in the "I love primaris" thread? Nope. This is a thread that asked what people feel is wrong in the line. The rest of the answers and the long discussion happened because for some unexplained reason, criticize the line is nothing short of blasphemous. People express their opinion on the new models and lore. Myself I find most of the new lines of the recent years outright excellent (Mechanicus, Genestealers) or good with few observations (Death Guard, they went too far with the horns and some model is too cartoony). It would be inopportune to spam a primaris appreciation thread with criticism, but your inability to accept that other people can have a different opinion on the line is baffling. I recommend you to grow a thicker skin. Also FYI - in the moment you accept other's opinion and stop with dismissive tone, snide comments, and outright refusal of even acknowledge other's point, you see people will not feel the need of repeating their point after being defined "haters". Cosi, consiglio per quando sarai piú grande.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/19 22:35:55
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2019/08/19 22:22:52
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Ishagu wrote: When will the complaining stop? Next year? Maybe the one after that?
Oceans of tears and enough whinging to birth a new Chaos God. That's what most of this topic has been.
You'll all be glad to hear I've accumulated over 4k points of Primaris. Doing my part to support GW.
I don't like every model of course, and I don't buy the ones I don't care for. I just don't feel the need to complain about them in every topic, or whinge about the lore as though 40k was some biblical text mired in unchangeable Dogma.
Of course it should be said that not everyone is this way. There are some valid criticisms. Shame there's an even greater number of unreasonable, biased and repetitive complaining.
I'm wondering when the last time was that you got to sit at the adult table.
Ishagu wrote: When will the complaining stop? Next year? Maybe the one after that?
Oceans of tears and enough whinging to birth a new Chaos God. That's what most of this topic has been.
You'll all be glad to hear I've accumulated over 4k points of Primaris. Doing my part to support GW.
I don't like every model of course, and I don't buy the ones I don't care for. I just don't feel the need to complain about them in every topic, or whinge about the lore as though 40k was some biblical text mired in unchangeable Dogma.
Of course it should be said that not everyone is this way. There are some valid criticisms. Shame there's an even greater number of unreasonable, biased and repetitive complaining.
I'm wondering when the last time was that you got to sit at the adult table.
Probably the last time someone cried about Primaris replacing their Manlet Marines and when people created dumb arguments regarding customization as though torsos being rotated was the be-all-end-all for that. Oh and the weapons options that aren't used for your Tactical Marinea because everyone used the more specialized squads. Hard to imagine, huh?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/08/19 23:07:50
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
I think anyone that comes into this thread with the idea that "Oh primaris is completely fine and all of you are toxic! and its all your fault for not liking them!"
Is just a toxic opinion ignore them, they are adding nothing to the discussion but unneeded discourse.
Overall most people agree : Primaris are too new and have varied of issues that face them. IE their kits are bland and boring, their models are all monoposed, they are too specailized, lack variety in their gear from their kits, and etc. There are so many different problems facing primaris.
Again this is an opinion thread people voicing their concerns with Primaris, and telling people "No your completely wrong, and your toxic cause you don't like it! While I HAAVE ALLL THESE THINGS MAKES YOU WRONG!" Is horribly toxic behavior for a poster, do not confront ignore them or this thread will meet an early grave.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: but but but being able to rotate the torso a half degree is vital to customization!
Making fun of an opinion isn't winning you any brownie points.
Yes cause primaris kits totally let you have customization from the base model that does not require additional skills like conversion or green stuff mastery
Primaris are harder to convert because they are so bland and because their ktis are all monoposed. Saying "Oh well they have more poses on base!" Is false cause marine kits are all universal, you can combine any space marine power armored kit with itself and you have a myraid of options, you do not have any of those options with primaris with torso or leg swaps because they are all monoposed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 23:18:54
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2019/08/19 23:22:57
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Also I should note that the varity of marine stuff is only due to the varity of kits, give it time for people to cobble together elements of other kits and I bet we'll see some impressive conversions for Primaris.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/19 23:34:56
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: but but but being able to rotate the torso a half degree is vital to customization!
No, it's convenient.
I wish also to add that this is exactly the type of answer that makes you come out as immature in a thread concerning plastic space soldiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 23:37:05
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2019/08/19 23:35:10
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: Also I should note that the varity of marine stuff is only due to the varity of kits, give it time for people to cobble together elements of other kits and I bet we'll see some impressive conversions for Primaris.
Yet we don't. Its been what two years now? Primaris Captains only have two real kits and those are all monoposed... Then we have the primaris gravis captain which still has the same equipment from the dark imperium box. The Intercessors all still have the same equipment and their kits are eriely similar to the dark imperium kit. Instead we have twenty kits of Primaris LTs.
Spoiler:
Primaris intercessors bodies are all connected at the pelvis leaving a lot of issues for people who want to kit bash, yeah you can swap heads, but that isn't really the depth that current marine kits offer, even the first tactical marine kits of 3rd edition had a ton of options and their legs can be placed at any angle along with the torso being twisted to follow the movement. Unforunately without greenstuff you can't do that with primaris.
Especially if create dioramas it is crucial to have control of the torso to follow the motion, especially for special characters.
If your like me I take the challenge of combining multiple kits and spare parts to create special characters. Primaris do not offer that option as of current as their characters are not unique enough and do not have custom kits that allow for customization. Along with the primaris kits not having a variety of gear to choose from. And so each and every single primaris army comes out looking exactly the same and uniform across chapter lines. Even with upgrades they will still come out bland because of the lack of torso movement and lack of leg movement.
(you can see me trying to do that in this : https://imgur.com/gallery/olqgI4T where I try to make the poses far more dynamic as they currently lack a flow to their character) most if not all current primaris kits are relatively passive in their design and pose. Compared to the more active kits that you can do with the older kits because of torso, legs, and arm placement.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/19 23:43:03
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2019/08/19 23:51:48
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
ohh yeah I agree the character rules are garbage, but that's a "40k as a whole" trend rather then primaris specificly sadly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, EVERY HQ needs a box like the space marine commander
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/19 23:55:38
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Whilst I agree that the lack of options for Primaris characters suck, and that there could be more variety in the bits, the torso and legs being in one piece is a good move. Yes, you could twist the torso of the old models, but they looked like gak. The abdomen was always completely fethed, if you turned the torso. The belt buckle wandered into strange places and the cables on the stomach remained straight even though the torso was turned. It just looked like crap, sorry. The Primaris models actually have abdomen and waist detail that looks good.
BrianDavion wrote: ohh yeah I agree the character rules are garbage, but that's a "40k as a whole" trend rather then primaris specificly sadly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, EVERY HQ needs a box like the space marine commander
I mean farseers lack options cause they are stupidly powerful already and have a variety of rules they can take to be fluffy : either witch blades, a jetbike, or singing spear. While autarchs have a ton of choices probably more than the entire primas range of characters. I think most frontline commands and the 'face' of the codex as I call them should have the most options. Specialists like Libarians, Chaplains, Farseers, Warlocks, Spirit Seers, Mek Boys, Chaos Sorcerers should have less equipment to pick as they are for certain tasks.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2019/08/20 00:20:51
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: ohh yeah I agree the character rules are garbage, but that's a "40k as a whole" trend rather then primaris specificly sadly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, EVERY HQ needs a box like the space marine commander
I mean farseers lack options cause they are stupidly powerful already and have a variety of rules they can take to be fluffy : either witch blades, a jetbike, or singing spear. While autarchs have a ton of choices probably more than the entire primas range of characters. I think most frontline commands and the 'face' of the codex as I call them should have the most options. Specialists like Libarians, Chaplains, Farseers, Warlocks, Spirit Seers, Mek Boys, Chaos Sorcerers should have less equipment to pick as they are for certain tasks.
Probably the last time someone cried about Primaris replacing their Manlet Marines and when people created dumb arguments regarding customization as though torsos being rotated was the be-all-end-all for that. Oh and the weapons options that aren't used for your Tactical Marinea because everyone used the more specialized squads. Hard to imagine, huh?
Still sour about the Grenade Launcher thing, huh?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 00:21:45
I still love my little man marines, and I always will. for the salty haters, may your models ever break and paint always be found dry upon opening them. I curse you.
2019/08/20 01:43:40
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
robbienw wrote: The 'squatting' knees braced firing/ready to fire stance is actually quite realistic.
Wot?
Primaris criticism went so far into complete bias it's not even comical, it's wrong. Here, have actual Navy Seal firing machine gun:
Spoiler:
You might notice that despite firing something with significantly bigger kick than a standard infantry gun, he somehow doesn't use "methinks I will take dump soon" squatters have, it's "standing at ease" Primaris do. In fact, I have NEVER seen any actual, qualified soldier do comical 'legs squatting, gun extended to side' SM used to do. You extend the gun to the front, like the guy above, or Primaris, but fine, feel free to contradict reality by providing ONE picture of oldmarine pose done by someone actually competent.
Insectum7 wrote: There are legitimate reasons to not like the addition of Primaris armies to 40K.
Name one. No, 'not knowing how anatomy works' is not one. Ditto for 'I actually don't know any real fluff, but my imaginary fanon trumps both it and common sense'.
Insectum7 wrote: There is a threat that my primary army will die.
Yup, and that's why squatmarines got massive buffs in the new Codex, while Primaris got almost nothing, not even melee weapons on reivers everyone asked for last 3 years-- Oh, wait I forgot, common sense doesn't exist anymore, it's all FUD and flat earth grade conspiracy theories these days
2019/08/20 01:52:49
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Name one. No, 'not knowing how anatomy works' is not one. Ditto for 'I actually don't know any real fluff, but my imaginary fanon trumps both it and common sense'.
What does that mean?
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2019/08/20 01:54:45
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Name one. No, 'not knowing how anatomy works' is not one. Ditto for 'I actually don't know any real fluff, but my imaginary fanon trumps both it and common sense'.
What does that mean?
it means if you claim Old Marines are more anatomicly correct well you obviously don't know how anatomy works or claiming that Primaris are bad because of some assumption you have about the setting that... isn't actually true conflicts with them theyr'e bad arguments
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/20 02:00:20
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Name one. No, 'not knowing how anatomy works' is not one. Ditto for 'I actually don't know any real fluff, but my imaginary fanon trumps both it and common sense'.
What does that mean?
it means if you claim Old Marines are more anatomicly correct well you obviously don't know how anatomy works or claiming that Primaris are bad because of some assumption you have about the setting that... isn't actually true conflicts with them theyr'e bad arguments
Someone made that claim thats crazy, Primaris are better proptioned yes but their kit is limiting.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2019/08/20 03:25:11
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Insectum7 wrote: There are legitimate reasons to not like the addition of Primaris armies to 40K.
Name one. No, 'not knowing how anatomy works' is not one. Ditto for 'I actually don't know any real fluff, but my imaginary fanon trumps both it and common sense'.
Point out where I've made either of those arguments.
Crimson wrote: Whilst I agree that the lack of options for Primaris characters suck, and that there could be more variety in the bits, the torso and legs being in one piece is a good move. Yes, you could twist the torso of the old models, but they looked like gak. The abdomen was always completely fethed, if you turned the torso. The belt buckle wandered into strange places and the cables on the stomach remained straight even though the torso was turned. It just looked like crap, sorry. The Primaris models actually have abdomen and waist detail that looks good.
Yeah the tyre tread stomach armour does not look good. The flexi waist armour on the new CSM models is far better, if you want to do flexible stomach armour that way.
Turning the torso on classic marines doesn’t look bad, as long as you don’t twist it out of a reasonable range in the style of a newb. The belt buckle doesn’t have to be fixed at the fixed at the waist, it’s not there to cinch the power armoured trousers of a space marine so they don’t fall down I assume it can be attached to the stomach armour itself and the whole torso can turn, like it is the hem of a shirt.
The new codex is pretty clear that in the lore the old marines are being phased away and I'm sure the game will follow with that eventually.
It’s really not. The codex is very clear (in fluff terms) that classic units are essential. At this point it seems like they will not phase them out or will produce direct Primaris versions of classic units in the longer term future.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: I think anyone that comes into this thread with the idea that "Oh primaris is completely fine and all of you are toxic! and its all your fault for not liking them!"
Is just a toxic opinion ignore them, they are adding nothing to the discussion but unneeded discourse.
Overall most people agree : Primaris are too new and have varied of issues that face them. IE their kits are bland and boring, their models are all monoposed, they are too specailized, lack variety in their gear from their kits, and etc. There are so many different problems facing primaris.
Again this is an opinion thread people voicing their concerns with Primaris, and telling people "No your completely wrong, and your toxic cause you don't like it! While I HAAVE ALLL THESE THINGS MAKES YOU WRONG!" Is horribly toxic behavior for a poster, do not confront ignore them or this thread will meet an early grave.
Quite right on all points.
One thing I find odd about this section of Primaris fans (it’s only a very small minority of course, most are fine with or still like classics) is their desire to see the classic marine line shutdown. Why would anyone want this? If you don’t want to collect them fine, you don’t have to. But hoping for them to be discontinued is spiteful, you are basically taking pleasure in the thought of other people armies being invalidated. That’s a bit weird.
BrianDavion wrote: but but but being able to rotate the torso a half degree is vital to customization!
No, it's convenient.
I wish also to add that this is exactly the type of answer that makes you come out as immature in a thread concerning plastic space soldiers.
No it isn’t. It’s a common sense answer. Twisty but not bendy = infinitely customisable. Fixed waist in realistic pose = monopose. It’s a Nonsense. You don’t respond to logic so sarcasm is the only way to get it across to you.
Insectum7. I wasn’t responding to you sorry didn’t make it clear. It was this character is receding to.
2019/08/20 19:58:33
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Insectum7 wrote:Some people don't like Primaris. There are legitimate reasons to not like the addition of Primaris armies to 40K. Here is an OP attempting to define what he/she doesn't like about them.
Can't speak for everyone, but this is fine. It's absolutely fine to not like Primaris. And I certainly approve of saying "attempting to define" - because that's what I believe is happening. It's not a case of saying "no, you're not allowed to dislike Primaris!!", it's a "you give this reason for disliking them, but this is incongruent with XYZ"
It's more a case of "you're cool to not like Primaris, but your logic for it is confusing".
Cue responses "There's no difference!", when there plainly are.
This I disagree with. There cannot "plainly" be a difference if about 50% of people in this thread are saying that there isn't one.
Maybe it's plain to you, but clearly not to everyone - which, in the general sense, means it's not plain overall.
We could have an adult discussion about it, I find it pretty interesting, personally. But no, we're all 'haters' apparently.
Whichever side of this you fall on, calling people haters is a bad call. Disagree by all means, point out flaws in arguments, but reducing people to just "haters" isn't exactly fair.
"You have failed to give any reasons why they aren’t imperial enough for you."
Imperial = land vehicles, few exceptions. Primaris = all skimmers (like Eldar and Tau) For starters. Non-mix squad options is another.
But Orks also have land vehicles! Are Orks Imperial?
Also, Custodes have flying vehicles. Sisters of Silence have skimmers. Admech have skimmers.
What the Imperium don't have is widespread skimmers, but they do have them, and always have. But adding another three is breaking the identity of the Imperium? Or is it just because they're Primaris?
"They haven’t done anything that any other major release has done to the game or setting." No other faction release has threatened to replace the army collections and lore of an existing faction. Squats were written out, but Squats were not replaced. Classic Space Marines, according to some in this thread, are being actively replaced in the lore. There is a threat that my primary army will die. This isn't an odd-build army like a White Scars all-biker army that only lasts for 2 editions, or like a Kroot List army available for a short time during 4th. This is an army that has been playable since Rogue Trader, and has seen immense stability for that entire time. Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, Terminator Squads etc. are virtually unchanged since that time. And there is a real threat that they will go away. That IS a difference. THAT is why this is a hot topic.
So far, GW have made no attempt to remove classic Marines. They still sell them, still have rules for them, still give them stratagems. Sure, Primaris Marines are on the front covers, but so are Ultramarines. GW aren't replacing everything with Ultramarines.
Insectum7 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: In the artwork we've had for Custodes, which was around long before they had a model line, they were depicted as having anti-grav tanks.
Not enough of a counter. Occasional drawing (can you find it/them?) is no match for fieldable units for ascertaining army/faction identity.
Why is this not a sufficient counter? Custodes have had flying units for ages. Space Marines have had playable flying units for ages (which tells me that, while they're rare, the core aesthetic of Space Marine vehicles doesn't revolve around their altitude above ground).
I think this is a case of us simply not agreeing what the core identity of the Space Marines even is, which is fine - it just means that we can't really claim things like "core aesthetic" when neither of us can actually agree on it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: In my book, it's telling me 9 for Scouts, 8 for regulars. And if you buy the units with power levels, you move up in increments of 3 as well - 3 Bikes, to 6 Bikes, to 8/9 Bikes.
Bikes max at 10. 8 Bikers and 1 Attack Bike, which is two marines.
If we're counting Attack Bikes then, the Attack Bikes entry is even more weird - unit starts at 1 Bike (2 men) and can only go up to 3 (6 men)!
This is the first edition where Company Vets/Command Squads didn't minimum at 5.
And now they are.
Moot, the trend remains set, and the max remains 5.
Sorry, it's changed. The max might be 5, but I can take Aggressors in a unit of 5 too. However, they still start at a weird size *now*, and so comparing them to modern units, I should be fair and use modern datasheets.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: You claimed that there were more Primaris units with awkward unit sizes. This is not true.
I don't believe I did. My claim was about proportion. My claim remains about common army appearance, organization and expectations. My claim is about trends. You not understanding an argument doesn't mean goalposts have moved. It means you didn't understand the argument.
Okay, there's a higher *proportion* of Primaris units who are unusually sized, but there's just as many (if not more) unusually sized normal units - the only thing offsetting that is the fact that Marines have an incredibly large unit pool to pick from.
Therefore, because these units exist at all, I don't think that Space Marines being in regular 5/10 man units is a key part of their identity.
As for Centurions, if you don't accept that they are A: controversial, and B: against the classic trends, I'll just point out that exceptions to a trend do not mean the lack of a trend.
In which case, couldn't I just claim "well, clearly XYZ Primaris units are against classic trends, so actually, you'll find that excluding these inconvenient units, Primaris actually have a 5/10 man unit trend!!"
This is my whole point. It's fine not to like Primaris, but you can't just say things you don't like about Primaris when those same things are present in the models you're defending. That's just hypocritical.
Trying to hide Centurions and pretend they don't exist for the purpose of your argument is in poor faith.
As pointed out above, Bikers are actually 10.
And as I've pointed out, Attack Bikes are 6.
Suppressors seem to me to be mainline units, which would make this 0 - 3, not 1-2.
I disagree. They don't seem to be mainline units to me.
Marines have been billed as flexible generalists since. . . at least since when I started 40K.
They have for me too - but that wasn't ever true on tabletop, at least, not accurately. Guardsmen, Orks, and Sisters of Battle all embodied the same kind of mixed weapon squads, and so because of that, that was not settled as the USP of Space Marines for me. And then when 30k came out, and I still thought of the 30k Legionnaires as "Space Marines", I knew that it wasn't their mixed weaponry or anything like that that made them "Space Marines".
Not being able to get decent anti-armor weapons in your squad makes a unit much less capable at being a "flexible generalist." Other factions being able to do it (many of them Imperial Factions) doesn't matter so much as marines having basically always followed that format.
Except for Legions.
And again, the fact that other Imperial factions were doing it too just tells me that the whole "mixed weapons" thing wasn't a selling point that made Space Marines special, it was just how GW made squads at the time.
The optics of 20-man bolter-blob are just not common to the franchise.
Exactly - to the whole franchise, because it wasn't just Space Marines who had mixed weapon squads. Hell, the Imperium wasn't even the only faction who could.
Mixed weapons were a franchise feature, not a "Space Marines" feature, and as a result, I don't think it's key to the Space Marine identity.
And again, the kits were sold as 10 with Sergeant, Special and Heavy.
Because those kits could *also* be used to make Legion Veteran Tactical Squads, or 40k Tactical Squads, or just to add some bits.
A bunch of subtle things can add up to a not-subtle thing. Multiple minor deviations add up to a much larger deviation.
Which is fine, but when a majority of those subtle things are also present in the Marine range (which really brings into question the idea of deviation), can't you see how that's a little bit illogical?
You not understanding the argument doesn't make the argument wrong. I believe the "silhouette argument" is essentially "Classic Marine units are primarily arranged around an identical core silhouette, that of Power Armor." The primary deviations are simply a variety of additions on top of that core silhouette. A bike is still, marine-in-power-armor, just on a bike. An Assault marine is marine-in-power-armor, with a Jump Pack. A Devastator is marine-in-power-armor, with a Heavy Weapon. The armor itself doesn't change. Yes, there are marks of armor that differ superficially in terms of decoration, but the silhouette of those marks is virtually identical, and more importantly, it doesn't change from unit to unit. Make a Mk4 army and you'll have identical Mk4 guys with different extras.
Which is fine - but as far as I see, Primaris do this too. So why the double standard?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As is Primaris armour. As per the design notes, Primaris Marines all wear the same core aesthetic to their armour.
On the tabletop there are more deviations in armor silhouette.
Not to me. In fact, old Marines have a larger degree of differentiation to me.
Honestly I'll just lean on the statistics of the model. A Repulsor has an . . . "extensive" array of various weapons on it. It's got a ton of bits and baubles on it, many of them with their own stats and minor deviations. Classic Marine vehicles are pretty straight forward with their form and armament. Box-with-turret. Box-with-sponsons-and-turret. Primaris vehicles have a bunch more bits and form-breakages and the details are less integrated, etc. You've probably seen the memes that poke fun of this. It's clear that there are others who observe the same differences.
But the core Repulsor (and Repulsor Executioner) is still "box with turret". The auto-launchers and various storm bolters and such are either built into the box itself, or are no more intrusive than smoke launchers and hunter-killer missiles on older vehicles.
Maybe that's because I don't stick any of the baggage and stuff on the flanks, but they're optional bits, but like how the classic marine vehicles also have various tow cables and crates which can be glued on.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Inability for individual units to be armed against a variety of targets makes them less Astartes-ey, to me.
Whereas I feel that the ability to engage multiple targets to varying degree of effectiveness is not important to the Astartes identity.
Kaiyanwang
Spoiler:
Kaiyanwang wrote:Did you see me or other post in the "I love primaris" thread? Nope.
This is a thread that asked what people feel is wrong in the line. The rest of the answers and the long discussion happened because for some unexplained reason, criticize the line is nothing short of blasphemous.
If people have said that, I disagree with them. What I *have* said is "give your reasons for why you don't like them, and you're welcome to it, but I will point out that your arguments may also apply to classic marines too".
It would be inopportune to spam a primaris appreciation thread with criticism, but your inability to accept that other people can have a different opinion on the line is baffling.
Again, there's nothing wrong with a different opinion. But when people invent facts to support those opinions, what's wrong with calling out and discussing those points?
Asherian Command
Spoiler:
Asherian Command wrote:I think anyone that comes into this thread with the idea that "Oh primaris is completely fine and all of you are toxic! and its all your fault for not liking them!"
Is just a toxic opinion ignore them, they are adding nothing to the discussion but unneeded discourse.
Overall most people agree : Primaris are too new and have varied of issues that face them. IE their kits are bland and boring, their models are all monoposed, they are too specailized, lack variety in their gear from their kits, and etc. There are so many different problems facing primaris.
Again this is an opinion thread people voicing their concerns with Primaris, and telling people "No your completely wrong, and your toxic cause you don't like it! While I HAAVE ALLL THESE THINGS MAKES YOU WRONG!" Is horribly toxic behavior for a poster, do not confront ignore them or this thread will meet an early grave.
Agreed. No need to say someone's opinion is wrong. Maybe their reasoning is faulty, but if that's what they believe, who has the right to say they're not allowed that.
Discuss it, debate it, but move on from actually attacking an opinion.
Primaris are harder to convert because they are so bland and because their ktis are all monoposed. Saying "Oh well they have more poses on base!" Is false cause marine kits are all universal, you can combine any space marine power armored kit with itself and you have a myraid of options, you do not have any of those options with primaris with torso or leg swaps because they are all monoposed.
I wouldn't call them bland. I'm not fussed about the lack of torso swaps, because most would be covered by a bolter anyways, and the various leg/torso poses can be made incredibly versatile simply by choice of arm positioning and head direction - so while you might have a fixed position on the body, the arms and head can really bring all that same flavour a rotated torso can. And again, there were still limits on where you could angle a torso with old Marines.
Asherian Command wrote:Primaris intercessors bodies are all connected at the pelvis leaving a lot of issues for people who want to kit bash, yeah you can swap heads, but that isn't really the depth that current marine kits offer, even the first tactical marine kits of 3rd edition had a ton of options and their legs can be placed at any angle along with the torso being twisted to follow the movement. Unforunately without greenstuff you can't do that with primaris.
Especially if create dioramas it is crucial to have control of the torso to follow the motion, especially for special characters.
If your like me I take the challenge of combining multiple kits and spare parts to create special characters. Primaris do not offer that option as of current as their characters are not unique enough and do not have custom kits that allow for customization. Along with the primaris kits not having a variety of gear to choose from. And so each and every single primaris army comes out looking exactly the same and uniform across chapter lines. Even with upgrades they will still come out bland because of the lack of torso movement and lack of leg movement.
(you can see me trying to do that in this : https://imgur.com/gallery/olqgI4T where I try to make the poses far more dynamic as they currently lack a flow to their character) most if not all current primaris kits are relatively passive in their design and pose. Compared to the more active kits that you can do with the older kits because of torso, legs, and arm placement.
Whereas I don't have the same experience. The Primaris designs are very well done in my eyes, as head placement and arm positioning can drastically change nearly any posing of the models.
And I'd also like to add, this isn't just a Primaris issue. This is an *every new HQ* issue. In fact, Primaris actually have some of the best "monopose" sculpts out there in terms of conversion potential.
So yes, while they are less customisable, they're no worse than any modern HQ kit.
Also, I like what you've done with your guys.
robbienw
Spoiler:
robbienw wrote:One thing I find odd about this section of Primaris fans (it’s only a very small minority of course, most are fine with or still like classics) is their desire to see the classic marine line shutdown. Why would anyone want this? If you don’t want to collect them fine, you don’t have to. But hoping for them to be discontinued is spiteful, you are basically taking pleasure in the thought of other people armies being invalidated. That’s a bit weird.
Agreed. I wouldn't want old marines shut down unless there were immediate and unit accurate replacements (ie, you can get rid of the Tactical Squad models when they run dry, but at least hold on to the unit entry).
They/them
2019/08/20 20:13:25
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Ishagu wrote: When will the complaining stop? Next year? Maybe the one after that?
Oceans of tears and enough whinging to birth a new Chaos God. That's what most of this topic has been.
You'll all be glad to hear I've accumulated over 4k points of Primaris. Doing my part to support GW.
I don't like every model of course, and I don't buy the ones I don't care for. I just don't feel the need to complain about them in every topic, or whinge about the lore as though 40k was some biblical text mired in unchangeable Dogma.
Of course it should be said that not everyone is this way. There are some valid criticisms. Shame there's an even greater number of unreasonable, biased and repetitive complaining.
?? I don't fault anyone the love of their models or army, but you need to stop faulting people who don't love the idea of rebuying thousands of dollars worth of numarines. I have done my part to support GW over decades with many armies and many thousands of dollars worth of product I don't even know how much but I don't see why anyone should bend over backwards to support a company that won't support you.
I really don't think many care if you or anyone love or hate primaris people just want their investment of money and time respected and appreciated and support for the old marines continued, even if just in actually thought out rule support. Thats all it takes to respect the vets and give them reason to dip into the primaris pool or just re divert buys into other armies in the system. I don't mind feeling like my marine armies are done and aside from rules I don't need to buy more models for them.
Some do like the old marines though, and without the fluff this game would have been sunk long ago, it's system is shallow and I for one was turned on to it by the fluff. People have legitimate complaints you may not like them but they are there. If you are objective you can see their complaints and see the good aspect of the primaris at the end of the day GW are being a bit vague when they should be more clear as to what is going to happen. As I know if they intend to support old marines with rules support from now on, I'd be totally fine with the nu marines aside from the dumb fluff. I just don't like the idea of being lied to, fed a line and slowly pushed off the cliff while they tell me how much better for me spending double or more of the money I already gave them to support them through harder times.
2019/08/20 20:42:30
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
robbienw wrote: One thing I find odd about this section of Primaris fans (it’s only a very small minority of course, most are fine with or still like classics) is their desire to see the classic marine line shutdown. Why would anyone want this? If you don’t want to collect them fine, you don’t have to. But hoping for them to be discontinued is spiteful, you are basically taking pleasure in the thought of other people armies being invalidated. That’s a bit weird.
It is rarely actually wanting it to happen, but merely recognising that it is going to happen.
That being said, in some point in the future when the Primaris line is more complete and there are analogues to most classic models just squatting the old marines might clear things up. Then all marines (chaos ones included) would just get the Primaris statline and most old models would be usable as counts as.
