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2019/08/22 00:55:35
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Thank you for the lore info. I am not questioning the fact that they made up lore in order to justify the models (GW is generally attentive to this, regardless of what can one think about the specific lore). Nonetheless, I find the lore change itself bad because makes the differences between imperium and other factions less special.
I feel like you'll do anything to brush off the lore and call it not canon. Rogue Trader started with the Imperium having Grav Tech, and the Astartes kept it in some form or another for decades. Now that the studio has gone back and gone "let's give Marines their grav tanks back" you say it breaks canon? Bull.
You've created you're own idea of what you think40k should be, and instead of admitting you're pigeonholing the setting you keep trying to claim that every single call back to that old lore is somehow not in line with the very setting that is built on that lore. Even 30k's lore is built on a lot of stuff from Rogue Trader that most fans thought they'd never get back.
You can make up excuses all day and all night but the fact is you've created this problem for yourself and instead of trying to address you own failing headcanon you keep doubling down and blaming GW for doing it wrong.
That "headcannon" is based on very real things, however. Namely that Grav-tech is RARE, and that it hasn't been on a production model for the Imperium outside of Land Speeders up until about 2016 or so.
You seem to be confused about how common it still is in the setting. Namely even with ONE THOUSAND chapters having access to it, that only represents a force (assuming some old math of mine that put an estimate at the population size of the Imperium at 16 Quintillion back before they broke the galaxy, let's call it a nice round 10 quintillion to represent the losses) 1 million people who can use anti-grav tech out of 10 quintillion is .00000000001% of the Imperium having access to the some kind of anti-grav tech.
The galaxy is a huge place, and just because a large chunk of what we see on the table can ride in grav tanks doesn't make it common to the setting.
That really just depends on your frame of reference. "Rare among Space Marine vehicles" to "All Primaris vehicles." Or, "No antigrav tanks" to "All Primaris tanks." It's a defining factor of Primaris vehicles, regardless, which is a primary Imperial army now. While before, grav tanks were exceedingly uncommon outside the usual xenos suspects.
For the record, that percentage is even more tipped against the Marines than I thought because the original pop estimate I worked out was 21 quintillion (spoiler has context of the whole number crunching I did back in 2013 and had shared with the studio in 2014):
Spoiler:
About a year ago a friend of mine and myself sat down with the idea of trying to figure out about how "big" the Imperium was roughly population wise (and about how many Sisters of Battle would fit the setting). So we dug through all the information on population levels from old rulebooks and what we could find and here's what we worked out while trying to keep the numbers on the low end as possible:
To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
1% of those complete their "basic" training successfully
1% of those are on active status at any time (the other 99% have been deactivated for any number of reasons). This last one was to really just push the number a lot lower based on the "stuff happens" quotient.
50% of the final total is Militant Orders, the rest is divided into the various Non-Militant Orders (which makes each of those smaller than the combined Militant Orders).
So running some basic numbers we figured that from the Hive Worlds (all 32,380 of them) had a rough average of 50,000,000,000 (we went with 50 Billion a Hive, which is about the middle of the range (10-100,000,000,000), and 10 Hive a planet, which is a bit lower than half as the range is 5-20) 16,190,000,000,000,000 people on the hives.
To keep the math easy we went with an average of 5 Billion people on average on every other planet in the Imperium (working from 1,000,000 that means 967,620 worlds) which is lower than our current population on Earth. That gave us another 4,838,100,000,000,000 more people.
This gave us a total of 21,028,100,000,000,000 people in the Imperium on a lowball math run (that is 21 Quadrillion people for the record).
Of these 210,281,000,000,000 meet the very basic criteria (1% of the population).
Of those 2,102,810,000,000 complete the basic training (1% of those who meet the basic criteria).
Of those 21,028,100,000 are on any kind of active duty (1% of those who complete the training).
Of those 10,514,050,000 are Battle Sisters (50% of those who are active duty).
With 1 Million Worlds in the Imperium this means the Sisters could in theory put as many as 10,514 Sisters on every world on average (the real spread is likely much more varied depending on combat operations, duties on Shrine Worlds, escorting pilgrimages, ect. This is just to give a rough idea of how many there could be.)
Now understandably 10.5 Billion sounds like a lot, but considering the scale of the Imperium it turns out to only be .00005% of the entire Imperium (for a comparative basis it'd be like 300 Sisters in the United States,or 6 Sisters to every state in the US), so still plenty "elite" for the setting.
Likewise the same numbers could be applied to Tempestus Scions and Commissars (as they go through similar screening processes).
And just for fun, if the Imperium has properly tithed their Guardsmen and there were no massed casualties there would be 210,281,000,000,000 standing Guardsmen. Definitely enough to drown the enemy in bodies, eh?
So 1 million Astartes out of 15 quintillion people (assuming we lost 6 quintillion people to the rift)? 6.6666667e-12% (.0000000000066666667%).
That still makes every grav vehicile incredibly rare since chapters seem to have one for every so many of their Astartes.
Thank you for the lore info. I am not questioning the fact that they made up lore in order to justify the models (GW is generally attentive to this, regardless of what can one think about the specific lore). Nonetheless, I find the lore change itself bad because makes the differences between imperium and other factions less special.
I feel like you'll do anything to brush off the lore and call it not canon. Rogue Trader started with the Imperium having Grav Tech, and the Astartes kept it in some form or another for decades. Now that the studio has gone back and gone "let's give Marines their grav tanks back" you say it breaks canon? Bull.
You've created you're own idea of what you think40k should be, and instead of admitting you're pigeonholing the setting you keep trying to claim that every single call back to that old lore is somehow not in line with the very setting that is built on that lore. Even 30k's lore is built on a lot of stuff from Rogue Trader that most fans thought they'd never get back.
You can make up excuses all day and all night but the fact is you've created this problem for yourself and instead of trying to address you own failing headcanon you keep doubling down and blaming GW for doing it wrong.
That "headcannon" is based on very real things, however. Namely that Grav-tech is RARE, and that it hasn't been on a production model for the Imperium outside of Land Speeders up until about 2016 or so.
You seem to be confused about how common it still is in the setting. Namely even with ONE THOUSAND chapters having access to it, that only represents a force (assuming some old math of mine that put an estimate at the population size of the Imperium at 16 Quintillion back before they broke the galaxy, let's call it a nice round 10 quintillion to represent the losses) 1 million people who can use anti-grav tech out of 10 quintillion is .00000000001% of the Imperium having access to the some kind of anti-grav tech.
The galaxy is a huge place, and just because a large chunk of what we see on the table can ride in grav tanks doesn't make it common to the setting.
That really just depends on your frame of reference. "Rare among Space Marine vehicles" to "All Primaris vehicles." Or, "No antigrav tanks" to "All Primaris tanks." It's a defining factor of Primaris vehicles, regardless, which is a primary Imperial army now. While before, grav tanks were exceedingly uncommon outside the usual xenos suspects.
The primary Imperial Army is still the Guard. Scions are the Special Forces of said army, and then above that you have Astartes which are more like WMDs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 01:03:41
2019/08/22 01:11:07
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
on another note beyond rarity (BTW plasma guns are described as rare but no one raises an eyebrow when every guard suqad marine squad, etc has a plasma gun) I was in my local GW today and got talking to some folks and finally managed to actually hear a really good reason for aestetic issues with Primaris.
He said that they look just eneugh like space marines to obviously be space marines, but have just eneugh differances to throw you off. It's , to borrow a term, kind of like an uncanny valley issue. And THAT is IMHO a pretty valid arguement. (I don't have the issue myself but... I can see it)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 01:15:18
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 01:16:41
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Insectum7 wrote: Faction identity: rare to faction identity: rule
Rarity to a faction is not the same as a rarity to the overall race of government.
Space Marines are rare, but we can field whole armies of them despite having only a million in the setting to work with. Making them have access to something even rarer than they are doesn't make it more common in the setting and confusing the rarity on the table (which is based more on its rules versus points costs than anything since the old 0-1 stuff died years ago) for the rarity in the setting and then using it to proclaim as making something "too common" is only creating a false premise on which to create an argument on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: on another note beyond rarity (BTW plasma guns are described as rare but no one raises an eyebrow when every guard suqad marine squad, etc has a plasma gun) I was in my local GW today and got talking to some folks and finally managed to actually hear a really good reason for aestetic issues with Primaris.
He said that they look just eneugh like space marines to obviously be space marines, but have just eneugh differances to throw you off. It's , to borrow a term, kind of like an uncanny valley issue. And THAT is IMHO a pretty valid arguement. (I don't have the issue myself but... I can see it)
I can see it. Just different enough that the differences can be hard for some people to parse is a valid reason for any model update (and might be where some of those memes about "soul" versus "soulless" really stem from).
Makes more sense than most of the handwavium I've seen used in this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 01:18:02
2019/08/22 01:54:41
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Insectum7 wrote: Faction identity: rare to faction identity: rule
Rarity to a faction is not the same as a rarity to the overall race of government.
No, but army wise it's pretty significant. That's what people play, and that's how faction identity manifests itself on the tabletop.
Space Marines go from no flying tanks, to all flying tanks. "High techy" factions go from skimmer-tank exclusivity, to sharing them with the most popular/played faction in the game. It's not insignificant. A degradation of faction design identity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 01:55:46
"All flying tanks". Nice hyperbole. Currently the only part of the Marines who are "all" flying tanks are the Primaris, but we know they have Land Raiders (Silver Templar chapter organization) and that they drive Rhinos (current codex).
2019/08/22 02:12:03
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
ClockworkZion wrote: "All flying tanks". Nice hyperbole. Currently the only part of the Marines who are "all" flying tanks are the Primaris, but we know they have Land Raiders (Silver Templar chapter organization) and that they drive Rhinos (current codex).
ClockworkZion wrote: "All flying tanks". Nice hyperbole. Currently the only part of the Marines who are "all" flying tanks are the Primaris, but we know they have Land Raiders (Silver Templar chapter organization) and that they drive Rhinos (current codex).
And we know that many people run all Primaris.
Do we?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 02:20:30
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
ClockworkZion wrote: "All flying tanks". Nice hyperbole. Currently the only part of the Marines who are "all" flying tanks are the Primaris, but we know they have Land Raiders (Silver Templar chapter organization) and that they drive Rhinos (current codex).
Never said it was grimdark, just that he's amazing. Kind of thought it would lead to more chariots being seen but I guess that design phase passed us by.
2019/08/22 04:10:00
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Insectum7 wrote: Sometimes, as it devolped, it immatured. Marines riding wolves, marines in armor, in armor. . .
Yeah, because nothing says "Grimdark" like Santa and his hover sleigh...
That model, actually done up and painted a bit better is great. I will fight the haters on it everyday and twice on Sunday.
I 100% believe you. It's just really not what I want to think about when I think Space Wolf.
On the other hand, I've always wanted a Lord of Skulls. I think the crazy stuff has it's place for sure. One nice thung about the sled is that Grimnar himself is a great model without it, so you can go more conservative.
No, they are jet engines, holding his epic self aloft and pulled forward by massive war beasts holding him from flying away !..yes probably anti grav, which would hint it's not as rare as might be imagined.
Insectum7 wrote: Sometimes, as it devolped, it immatured. Marines riding wolves, marines in armor, in armor. . .
Yeah, because nothing says "Grimdark" like Santa and his hover sleigh...
That model, actually done up and painted a bit better is great. I will fight the haters on it everyday and twice on Sunday.
I 100% believe you. It's just really not what I want to think about when I think Space Wolf.
On the other hand, I've always wanted a Lord of Skulls. I think the crazy stuff has it's place for sure. One nice thung about the sled is that Grimnar himself is a great model without it, so you can go more conservative.
I can get that, it isn't everyones taste for sure. You can easily set him up for use on and off the chariot so long as you have the extra base just use some magnets and ta da !
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 05:19:39
2019/08/22 06:32:30
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: on another note beyond rarity (BTW plasma guns are described as rare but no one raises an eyebrow when every guard suqad marine squad, etc has a plasma gun) I was in my local GW today and got talking to some folks and finally managed to actually hear a really good reason for aestetic issues with Primaris.
He said that they look just eneugh like space marines to obviously be space marines, but have just eneugh differances to throw you off. It's , to borrow a term, kind of like an uncanny valley issue. And THAT is IMHO a pretty valid arguement. (I don't have the issue myself but... I can see it)
That's a pretty good sum-up.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Never said it was grimdark, just that he's amazing. Kind of thought it would lead to more chariots being seen but I guess that design phase passed us by.
I would have loved a Dark Eldar character chariot of some kind, since I've always loved the bizarre war-beasts and gladiatorial games angle of the wych cults.
The supply does not get to make the demands.
2019/08/22 07:00:24
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
BrianDavion wrote: on another note beyond rarity (BTW plasma guns are described as rare but no one raises an eyebrow when every guard suqad marine squad, etc has a plasma gun) I was in my local GW today and got talking to some folks and finally managed to actually hear a really good reason for aestetic issues with Primaris.
He said that they look just eneugh like space marines to obviously be space marines, but have just eneugh differances to throw you off. It's , to borrow a term, kind of like an uncanny valley issue. And THAT is IMHO a pretty valid arguement. (I don't have the issue myself but... I can see it)
That's a pretty good sum-up.
.
I thought it worked and I can accept that arguement I mean it's not all some "ohh Primaris aren't real marines cause.."
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 07:00:54
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
because the table top isn't indicative of whats common in the setting. I mean grey Knights and space wolves are both a codex despite numbering ~1000 individuals
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 07:36:09
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
This reminds me historical wwii player who want all the ferdinand elephants at one battle with no mark ivs. Except those games usually prevent that. Not this one.
GWs setting is of little consequence if it has no impact on gameplay. Otherwise its just bloviation.
And yes chapter sizes are mega stupid.
If people love the fluff so much, why do they tolerate such violations?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 07:39:47
2019/08/22 07:57:43
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Martel732 wrote: They can say plasma is rare, but until restrictions go in the game, its not rare.
my point is that things fluffed as rare being common is the NORM in 40k
Rare can mean a lot in context, Finding 40 plasma for a specifc part of a battle for the IG does not mean they are not Rare. The battle context is often that its just a small part of the war, or even the battle itself for that very reason. Or even a chapter master or leader in the imperium having access to the tech itself, It could be special requested and taken 15 years to make.
Or they could only be making 12 thousand plasma guns a year, That is a lot. Unless you have to outfit the entire imperium with that number.
Bring back that plasma gun, its worth more than you are solder. Do not worry, we will get a pick up for that gun. Quite grimdark in a way
2019/08/22 08:26:28
Subject: Re:Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
Besides if we enforced rarity on the table top it'd lead to gak like "ok, so our gaming group is up to 100 players, since we're at that level guys I've put everyone's name in a hat. the person who wins the draw may make a space Marines army"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 08:50:28
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
That's better, thank you. In a number of previous posts you came across as dismissive of other people's opinions and presented points. That's why I jumped in to add weight and hopefully clarity to the arguments being put forth.
To me there is a very significant difference between a speeder and a tank.
To me, there is a significant difference between a long standing unit and centurions, so I have no trouble considering them to be one of the new units which are contributing to a shift in the identity of a marine army.
I admit I was forgetting about the Tempest. The typhoon is not a variant of speeder, just a weapon. They're the same dataslate. So land speeder, Tempest, storm, vengeance/Dark shroud and now repulsors and impulsors. 6 by my counting. Compared to Falcon, for prism, night shroud, vyper and jetbikes. 5. So in my eyes Eldar no longer hold the title for most anti grav units. That's weird to me.
T5 and T6 are very rare in my area. So that explains that I guess.
Suffice to say there have been a large number of new models in the last few years which have been visually jarring to me. When I and others try to discuss what we find jarring, we don't want to be told that our comments are invalid because someone doesn't hold the same mental image of what a space marine is.
Taking cuts out of the lower leg, uneven shoulders, anti grav tanks, space hopper autocannons, stubbers, unit sizes based on the number 3, entire squads with the same weapon... None of these things say marine to me. Perhaps I've just been around the hobby for too long. I remember when imperial units came 1, 5 or 10 models per unit, without the option to take 6,7,8 or 9, let alone 3. Even ogryns were 5 per unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 09:17:40
2019/08/22 15:09:14
Subject: Finally realized what bothers me about Primaris designs
I've been playing since 3rd edition and don't see this whole "been in the hobby too long" thing as ringing true.
I stand by my earlier point: you (and others) have built a littld mental box that says what a Space Marine "should" be and since GW has decided to use a bigger box that your box fits inside of you've blamed them for thinking outside of your box when all they're trying to do is give a larger box of ideas to play in.
I painted an Intercessor Sergeant in a quartered red and white scheme last night for a little color test. Why? Because all this talk over over the top Marines who seem more like walking Cathederals has me wanting to make just that. So I did a paint scheme test last night, am off to get plastic rod, wire, jewlery chain and sculpting putty and making it (I'm also going to nees crusader helms, swords and other bits but the Grey Knights kits are a good source for that).
Heck, I'm building the whole army around Rapid Assault (assault weapons don't suffer a penalty for advancing) and Whirlwind of Rage (exploding 6s to hit in melee) to play Primaris army that moves up and wants to get stuck in.
