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 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Interesting...no wound marine units on a 1 or 2 as a successor trait.

That seems damn good.

eh.. i mean it only matters for str 8 or above. That is what would be wounding on a 2 anyway, so not sure here how good this is. improved ~16.7% survivability vs str 8 or higher. seems like the iron hands ignore wounds on a 6 is just better for overall survivability.

The side question is if it kills rerolls to wound.

Reemule wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
Are Stratagems not found in the new codex still usable? Killshot and Linebreaker don't appear to be in the new book.

No.

What is your thoughts on the vigilous strategums?

It's just an opinion but I do expect an FAQ saying everything strategums wise that came before the new codex is retried from the game, bar possibly the blood ravens strategum and some of the vigilous stuff, I do expect some of the vigilous stuff to be culled as it exists in the main codex now.
GW has been fairly consistent on shutting down loopholes that allow double use of a stratageum. But we'll have to wait for the FAQ's

 Insectum7 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Interesting...no wound marine units on a 1 or 2 as a successor trait.

That seems damn good.

eh.. i mean it only matters for str 8 or above. That is what would be wounding on a 2 anyway, so not sure here how good this is. improved ~16.7% survivability vs str 8 or higher. seems like the iron hands ignore wounds on a 6 is just better for overall survivability.

The side question is if it kills rerolls to wound.

This is what I have been curious about. Why would it mention ones when they are always fails anyway unless it means that ones and twos cannot be re-rolled? I am interested to see if that is what happens.

Similar abilities are worded the same with 1,2,3 fail to wound.
As far as I know their isn't any interactions with wounding rolls.

Theyre explicitly classified as failed rolls, therefore an ability that allows you to reroll failed wounds would still function.

Can anyone confirm if the stratagem to turn a captain into a Chapter Master has dropped on CP? I think I read somewhere that it did, but I have not been able to confirm it anywhere.

Ice_can wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
Are Stratagems not found in the new codex still usable? Killshot and Linebreaker don't appear to be in the new book.

No.

What is your thoughts on the vigilous strategums?

I'm going to say, even though I hate it, GW would be better ruling them dead to Ultra's and ultra successors.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Interesting...no wound marine units on a 1 or 2 as a successor trait.

That seems damn good.

eh.. i mean it only matters for str 8 or above. That is what would be wounding on a 2 anyway, so not sure here how good this is. improved ~16.7% survivability vs str 8 or higher. seems like the iron hands ignore wounds on a 6 is just better for overall survivability.

Takes plasma off the table at least. And makes Castellans less foreboding for tanks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Interesting...no wound marine units on a 1 or 2 as a successor trait.

That seems damn good.

eh.. i mean it only matters for str 8 or above. That is what would be wounding on a 2 anyway, so not sure here how good this is. improved ~16.7% survivability vs str 8 or higher. seems like the iron hands ignore wounds on a 6 is just better for overall survivability.

Takes plasma off the table at least. And makes Castellans less foreboding for tanks.

oh for sure. I am not saying it is useless by any means, just comparing it to the iron hands one I think it is inferior.

With the doctrines, does it only apply to weapons that do not have an AP value or it doesn't stack with abilities that give an AP value?

For example, a bolt rifle within range of a captain with storm of fire WT and hats a 6 to wound would get either -1 (normal stat) -2 (either doctrine or WT) and not -3 (doctrine and WT)

Which would be correct?

 Dr. Mills wrote:
With the doctrines, does it only apply to weapons that do not have an AP value or it doesn't stack with abilities that give an AP value?

For example, a bolt rifle within range of a captain with storm of fire WT and hats a 6 to wound would get either -1 (normal stat) -2 (either doctrine or WT) and not -3 (doctrine and WT)

Which would be correct?

It stacks with a weapons normal AP, but it doesn't stack with other AP enhancing abilities.

No more killshot and linebreaker ?! That's a big bummer. Really.

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing both in the video review, they just didn't talk about them because they didn't change.

Not sure though, and at work so I can't look.

It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

AP increases are a great ability once enemy units start jumping into cover. Ever fought againt Custodes in Cityfight? Yuck. And IG tanks dont have invulns. Against stuff with invulns basic bolters will fare better than they have, because rarely does the armor save match the invuln.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

Take a lascannon from AP3 to AP4?
Take small arms up to AP1/2/3?

Repulsors just got chapter tactics, so it may have been warranted. "Changes nothing" is...an absurd way to characterize the codexes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

I am actually looking forward to playing my space marines again some. I do think overall from what I have seen space marines will be better off. With Iron hands and the land raider points drops I may try a 4 landraider and terminator list with chaplains buffing em.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

Take a lascannon from AP3 to AP4?
Take small arms up to AP1/2/3?

Repulsors just got chapter tactics, so it may have been warranted. "Changes nothing" is...an absurd way to characterize the codexes.

PFFF - repulsors were the best option in a very overpriced codex with no access to chapter tactics. You give them chapter tactics and raise their points by 10% has an overall net 0 gain effect. Not great units just need buffs - you dont have to nerf them at the same time. This is what dumb people do. Make changes to something bad without actually making something better. Yeah they got some AP - but lost access to reroll all wounds. The unit is not a lot worse as a result. We know what gman and repuslors was doing before. Not winning a lot. How do you think slightly better repulsors that cost 10% more without gman will be doing? It is easy to predict. AP on small arms isn't all that useful. Might kill 5-6 more infantry a turn as a result. Marines are already good at killing infantry but the end result is a nerf because no gman.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

I am actually looking forward to playing my space marines again some. I do think overall from what I have seen space marines will be better off. With Iron hands and the land raider points drops I may try a 4 landraider and terminator list with chaplains buffing em.

Iron hands is going to be the only mildly effective way to play marines competitively.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

Take a lascannon from AP3 to AP4?
Take small arms up to AP1/2/3?

Repulsors just got chapter tactics, so it may have been warranted. "Changes nothing" is...an absurd way to characterize the codexes.

PFFF - repulsors were the best option in a very overpriced codex with no access to chapter tactics. You give them chapter tactics and raise their points by 10% has an overall net 0 gain effect. Not great units just need buffs - you dont have to nerf them at the same time. This is what dumb people do. Make changes to something bad without actually making something better. Yeah they got some AP - but lost access to reroll all wounds. The unit is not a lot worse as a result. We know what gman and repuslors was doing before. Not winning a lot. How do you think slightly better repulsors that cost 10% more without gman will be doing? It is easy to predict. AP on small arms isn't all that useful. Might kill 5-6 more infantry a turn as a result. Marines are already good at killing infantry but the end result is a nerf because no gman.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was originally looking like space marines were going to be be OP but as all the details come out. It's easy to see how this changes nothing.

I'm sorry but ap is one of the weakest abilities in the game and aside from a few OP chapter tactics (Iron hands/imperial fists)these doctrines are not as good as they appear.

With the nerf to Gman and repulsors arguabley the 2 best marine units in the codex. The bar is about as high as it was before. Marines will still suck. They still revolve around plasma in a -1 to hit eddition. They still don't have invun saves (weak transports with low firepower don't really count). Seriously whoever decided the repulsor should go up in points needs to get kicked directly in the balls -DIRECTLY.

I am actually looking forward to playing my space marines again some. I do think overall from what I have seen space marines will be better off. With Iron hands and the land raider points drops I may try a 4 landraider and terminator list with chaplains buffing em.

Iron hands is going to be the only mildly effective way to play marines competitively.

Or you could stop acting like a kid and actually read the book and interprate what the point of the changes was.

But I'll give you a hint if you want to play repulsor spam stop playing Ultramarines and embrace ironhands. They are way better than ultramarines repulsors.

Ultramarines actually I would say buffs more of the old marines units that I am actually looking forward to being able to break out.
Aslong as GW don't screw me by not giving FW models angles of death I'm looking forward to try out some quite fun to downright nasty lists as ultramarines.
Without Bobby G ir a repulsive in sight.

Iron hands had a chance to be really good. Unfortunately They nerfed repulsors and executioners in anticipation for it. You really think 330 point tanks without invos can be played in competitive? Get outta here. They can't. Plus they will do close to half the damage gman repsulors did. It just doesn't work. Realsitcally. A repuslor with traits is worth about 260 and anytone with half a brain can figure that out quickly by looking at comparable units. Anything that isn't an iron hands repulsor is just laughable too.

So glad I spent 600 bucks on useless executioners and repulsors just for them to get nerfed when they were already overcosted. LOL.

None of the real issues were fixed and strongest units were nerfed. Not very good stragems ether.
Plasma still slays you on a 2 wound model.
Aggressors got a nice buff but their deliver system nerfed so it's a net loss there.
Drop pods come in turn one but still cost too much
Veteran units now cost 2 cp for 10 man...another nerf.
Cents lost gman and mortal wounds strata too?
Storm raven still overcosted AF
Vindi gets a nice buff but loses marines best overall stragem.

There seems to be a consistent theme here - anything that got better got worse in another way. This is essentially a zero sum gain in order to generate sales and confuse people.

I think it is silly hard to judge a book that hasn't been released, let alone going to its a failure.

Facts we know seem to point to good things. Sub 100 point impulsors. Weapon upgrades on Eliminators. Doctrines, Angels of death, Drop Pods, Scions of Gman, and many of the new strats point to SM getting stronger.

The nerf side seems much lighter, and even some of those mitigated some like Gman going down 50 points, But No soup and the Repulsor point bump does hurt.

In all, Its far too premature to get up tight right now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
PFFF - repulsors were the best option in a very overpriced codex with no access to chapter tactics. You give them chapter tactics and raise their points by 10% has an overall net 0 gain effect. Not great units just need buffs - you dont have to nerf them at the same time. This is what dumb people do. Make changes to something bad without actually making something better. Yeah they got some AP - but lost access to reroll all wounds. The unit is not a lot worse as a result. We know what gman and repuslors was doing before. Not winning a lot. How do you think slightly better repulsors that cost 10% more without gman will be doing? It is easy to predict. AP on small arms isn't all that useful. Might kill 5-6 more infantry a turn as a result. Marines are already good at killing infantry but the end result is a nerf because no gman.

Repulsors and Bobby lists are ham fisted. If your whole strategy rolling dice harder than everyone else you're going to lose games.

You can make an executioner or repulsor auto hit a flyer.

Assuming Vigilus isn’t removed, you could still get 1cp 10 man Vet Intercessors for 1cp if you pay the 1cp formation tax, right? Yeah it’s the same for 1 unit but then you do get the Vigilus options too.

Reemule wrote:
I think it is silly hard to judge a book that hasn't been released, let alone going to its a failure.

Facts we know seem to point to good things. Sub 100 point impulsors. Weapon upgrades on Eliminators. Doctrines, Angels of death, Drop Pods, Scions of Gman, and many of the new strats point to SM getting stronger.

The nerf side seems much lighter, and even some of those mitigated some like Gman going down 50 points, But No soup and the Repulsor point bump does hurt.

In all, Its far too premature to get up tight right now.

You take gman for the reroll wounds aura. If I wanted a beast CC unit I'd just take a knight gallant - which hilariously I can't do anymore because marines lose doctrines if they soup...It just keeps getting worse and worse the more I look into it. I called marines being a bottom tier faction about 2 years ago when I saw the codex. It's really not hard to figure out a codex isn't getting much better when you nerf it's best units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bort wrote:
Assuming Vigilus isn’t removed, you could still get 1cp 10 man Vet Intercessors for 1cp if you pay the 1cp formation tax, right? Yeah it’s the same for 1 unit but then you do get the Vigilus options too.

The appearance of the vilgis stratagems in the codex basically confirms that vigilus is invalidated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
PFFF - repulsors were the best option in a very overpriced codex with no access to chapter tactics. You give them chapter tactics and raise their points by 10% has an overall net 0 gain effect. Not great units just need buffs - you dont have to nerf them at the same time. This is what dumb people do. Make changes to something bad without actually making something better. Yeah they got some AP - but lost access to reroll all wounds. The unit is not a lot worse as a result. We know what gman and repuslors was doing before. Not winning a lot. How do you think slightly better repulsors that cost 10% more without gman will be doing? It is easy to predict. AP on small arms isn't all that useful. Might kill 5-6 more infantry a turn as a result. Marines are already good at killing infantry but the end result is a nerf because no gman.

Repulsors and Bobby lists are ham fisted. If your whole strategy rolling dice harder than everyone else you're going to lose games.

You can make an executioner or repulsor auto hit a flyer.

Uhhh - for a glass cannon army I'm sorry. Rolling dice harder is your ownly option. Vs a lot of armies you wont even be taking saving throws most the time.

I know they copied some in. But there’s still the grey shield and the relics I don’t recall from the previews.

We'll just have to wait for actual tournament results where people actually play, or try a bit ourselves and see in our meta how it goes, really.

In the last period some unconventional lisis have been doing well...

bort wrote:
I know they copied some in. But there’s still the grey shield and the relics I don’t recall from the previews.

Not confrimed - I am just assuming. Why would they print the strats in the codex with changes values if you could just run vigilis and get them cheaper? It wouldn't make any sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:
I know they copied some in. But there’s still the grey shield and the relics I don’t recall from the previews.

Not confrimed - I am just assuming. Why would they print the strats in the codex with changes values if you could just run vigilis and get them cheaper? It wouldn't make any sense.

If they are identical, then true. What I thought I heard on the preview was they now cost 2cp, but no longer require a veteran intercessors unit. So Vigilus ones would be cheaper, but more upfront tax and fewer units.

bort wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

bort wrote:
I know they copied some in. But there’s still the grey shield and the relics I don’t recall from the previews.

Not confrimed - I am just assuming. Why would they print the strats in the codex with changes values if you could just run vigilis and get them cheaper? It wouldn't make any sense.

If they are identical, then true. What I thought I heard on the preview was they now cost 2cp, but no longer require a veteran intercessors unit. So Vigilus ones would be cheaper, but more upfront tax and fewer units.

If you wanted a single 5 man intercessor vet unit - that is the only way it would be cheaper. A 10 man and the detachment costs 2 and then you'd get bonus 10 man vets for 1 cp instead of 2. Rapid fire is also in there but I didn't see the others. ANother thing I initially thought would be good was taking the buffed stalker bolter and using the strat on it.

The stalker stratagem is in