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 Ginjitzu wrote:
I may be being naive here, but if Xenomancers likes the last book and hates the new book, can't he just continue to use the old one? I mean, I know it's presumed the old book is no longer valid, but is that actually stated anywhere? Surely, so long as you don't try to mix and match things from both books, you can choose to use either-or as you please, no?

It depends on who he's playing against. They're both 8E codex. Who's REALLY going to say "Nah, I'll pass on having a game because you haven't bought the new better codex you think is junk yet.". Heck, he could just play using the Index if he really wanted to.

Bear in mind, I doubt we're going to see anyone thrown out of a GW store for playing 5E (or whatever edition I'm thinking of when you could run Belial and Sammael together and make all Ravenwing and Deathwing Obj Secured troops) because that was when Dark Angels were cool.

I kind of have to agree with Xenos, the repulsor is/was overpriced by a bit maybe not 30-40 but 2 of them take up a quarter of your army which makes the rest of your list a little awkward to manage since it really is one of those units you have to take 2 of.

Granted you can do pretty well with them if you're targeting things T5 or less. I think the biggest thing to complain about is that UM don't have an excuse. There no CT benefits for it, sure you could say there's a dev doctrine but we know you're gonna wanna lock in the tactical one asap for them

My concern is that whilst Marines are indeed more effective at dealing damage, they are now worse at dealing with Knights and from what we currently have, are no more survivable.

Yes, Intercessors are awesome. Great troops. Yes, the strats are much better and the chapter specific powers are so far pretty nice.

Ultras in specific are worse at clearing out the meta's favourite tap dancing Robots, but that's fine - I understand why RG was changed.

The cost increases are really painful, however. There was no need whatsoever to nerf the Repulsors. If you focus on Primaris, as I now do because the army looks so much better on the table, you're left with a real lack of options for high impact, high durability units.

The army is still very small, and very elite. I think they can do some quality damage to an opponent but would suffer just as much in return, likely more.

The better rules were a system shock precisely because they were so rubbish in the past books. Once the smoke clears it will become apparent that the army isn't going to be a meta buster.

The other supplaments could change that, of course, but Ultras are certainly not going to be a hyper dominant force. I actually see better combos in the White Scars books.

regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I kind of have to agree with Xenos, the repulsor is/was overpriced by a bit maybe not 30-40 but 2 of them take up a quarter of your army which makes the rest of your list a little awkward to manage since it really is one of those units you have to take 2 of.

Granted you can do pretty well with them if you're targeting things T5 or less. I think the biggest thing to complain about is that UM don't have an excuse. There no CT benefits for it, sure you could say there's a dev doctrine but we know you're gonna wanna lock in the tactical one asap for them

I was actually thinking about Tactical Doctrine and Scions for them, but that got me thinking about LRC's... which also have POTMS but that isn't much of a buff for them, unless they screw up Bolter discipline and they ended up getting Beta Bolter with the way Scions would work... So I'm looking forward to my codex. That then got me thinking about Predators. Who now basically have POTMS. Heck every UM vehicle will now basically have POTMS.

And no you don't have to take two Repulsors. You can take one, and two Redemptors for example, your opponent may be more inclined to shoot two Redemptors than one Repulsor Two Redemptors are going to have about the same firepower, plus be walking up to maul his stuff. He's theoretically on a shorter timer with those.

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I kind of have to agree with Xenos, the repulsor is/was overpriced by a bit maybe not 30-40 but 2 of them take up a quarter of your army which makes the rest of your list a little awkward to manage since it really is one of those units you have to take 2 of.

Granted you can do pretty well with them if you're targeting things T5 or less. I think the biggest thing to complain about is that UM don't have an excuse. There no CT benefits for it, sure you could say there's a dev doctrine but we know you're gonna wanna lock in the tactical one asap for them

I was actually thinking about Tactical Doctrine and Scions for them, but that got me thinking about LRC's... which also have POTMS but that isn't much of a buff for them, unless they screw up Bolter discipline and they ended up getting Beta Bolter with the way Scions would work... So I'm looking forward to my codex. That then got me thinking about Predators. Who now basically have POTMS. Heck every UM vehicle will now basically have POTMS.

And no you don't have to take two Repulsors. You can take one, and two Redemptors for example, your opponent may be more inclined to shoot two Redemptors than one Repulsor Two Redemptors are going to have about the same firepower, plus be walking up to maul his stuff. He's theoretically on a shorter timer with those.

This is why I'm excited for this release. New dread infiltrates so it's already up there, I can have that one up field with my redemptor coming along too. I shouldn't need 2 repulsors now with the impulsor to deliver my hellblasters but I still need a repulsor for aggressors.

Another thing is that the invictor has auto cannons and I'm so glad because most of the 1st wave was S4-5 and then 8 with no middle ground

Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

 fraser1191 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I kind of have to agree with Xenos, the repulsor is/was overpriced by a bit maybe not 30-40 but 2 of them take up a quarter of your army which makes the rest of your list a little awkward to manage since it really is one of those units you have to take 2 of.

Granted you can do pretty well with them if you're targeting things T5 or less. I think the biggest thing to complain about is that UM don't have an excuse. There no CT benefits for it, sure you could say there's a dev doctrine but we know you're gonna wanna lock in the tactical one asap for them

I was actually thinking about Tactical Doctrine and Scions for them, but that got me thinking about LRC's... which also have POTMS but that isn't much of a buff for them, unless they screw up Bolter discipline and they ended up getting Beta Bolter with the way Scions would work... So I'm looking forward to my codex. That then got me thinking about Predators. Who now basically have POTMS. Heck every UM vehicle will now basically have POTMS.

And no you don't have to take two Repulsors. You can take one, and two Redemptors for example, your opponent may be more inclined to shoot two Redemptors than one Repulsor Two Redemptors are going to have about the same firepower, plus be walking up to maul his stuff. He's theoretically on a shorter timer with those.

This is why I'm excited for this release. New dread infiltrates so it's already up there, I can have that one up field with my redemptor coming along too. I shouldn't need 2 repulsors now with the impulsor to deliver my hellblasters but I still need a repulsor for aggressors.

Another thing is that the invictor has auto cannons and I'm so glad because most of the 1st wave was S4-5 and then 8 with no middle ground

Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

Hadn't thought about the hosepipe guys tbh but that's a very valid point, it gets rid of the worst of their issues which was wtf would you move them. Makes more sense to keep then on the board turn 1 for the AP-2 though, then ignore the penalty and move after

Dudeface wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I kind of have to agree with Xenos, the repulsor is/was overpriced by a bit maybe not 30-40 but 2 of them take up a quarter of your army which makes the rest of your list a little awkward to manage since it really is one of those units you have to take 2 of.

Granted you can do pretty well with them if you're targeting things T5 or less. I think the biggest thing to complain about is that UM don't have an excuse. There no CT benefits for it, sure you could say there's a dev doctrine but we know you're gonna wanna lock in the tactical one asap for them

I was actually thinking about Tactical Doctrine and Scions for them, but that got me thinking about LRC's... which also have POTMS but that isn't much of a buff for them, unless they screw up Bolter discipline and they ended up getting Beta Bolter with the way Scions would work... So I'm looking forward to my codex. That then got me thinking about Predators. Who now basically have POTMS. Heck every UM vehicle will now basically have POTMS.

And no you don't have to take two Repulsors. You can take one, and two Redemptors for example, your opponent may be more inclined to shoot two Redemptors than one Repulsor Two Redemptors are going to have about the same firepower, plus be walking up to maul his stuff. He's theoretically on a shorter timer with those.

This is why I'm excited for this release. New dread infiltrates so it's already up there, I can have that one up field with my redemptor coming along too. I shouldn't need 2 repulsors now with the impulsor to deliver my hellblasters but I still need a repulsor for aggressors.

Another thing is that the invictor has auto cannons and I'm so glad because most of the 1st wave was S4-5 and then 8 with no middle ground

Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

Hadn't thought about the hosepipe guys tbh but that's a very valid point, it gets rid of the worst of their issues which was wtf would you move them. Makes more sense to keep then on the board turn 1 for the AP-2 though, then ignore the penalty and move after

Even better point!

But this kinda highlights how everyone is focusing on a couple units when the guys you weren't paying attention to are getting better. Except reivers

 fraser1191 wrote:


Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

Because Moving and Firing was only one of the reasons nobody liked...

Oh that's funny.

With Tactical Doctrine and Scions you can fire as if you hadn't moved. If you fall back and shoot as UM, you get a -1. But Scions says you can shoot as if you hadn't moved. Those YMDC fireworks are going to be fun to watch.

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

Because Moving and Firing was only one of the reasons nobody liked...

Oh that's funny.

With Tactical Doctrine and Scions you can fire as if you hadn't moved. If you fall back and shoot as UM, you get a -1. But Scions says you can shoot as if you hadn't moved. Those YMDC fireworks are going to be fun to watch.

That's interesting. I mean if you did not move you did not fall back. Does this mean they fire as if they still are in combat? (meaning only pistols)

Gitdakka wrote:

Breton wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


Also I've noticed no one is talking about UM suppressors, they can freely deepstrike and maintain their 3+ BS

Because Moving and Firing was only one of the reasons nobody liked...

Oh that's funny.

With Tactical Doctrine and Scions you can fire as if you hadn't moved. If you fall back and shoot as UM, you get a -1. But Scions says you can shoot as if you hadn't moved. Those YMDC fireworks are going to be fun to watch.

That's interesting. I mean if you did not move you did not fall back. Does this mean they fire as if they still are in combat? (meaning only pistols)

Depends on how far they fell back. If they're still within 1" they're stuck with pistols. That's the test for shooting... range not close combat.

UM super-doctrine ceases to apply if you advance or fall back. There's no loophole.

Yeah I just looked it up, I thought it was charge or advance, I had it backwards.

And yes, there’s still a loophole where people will try to force UM flyers to take a -2 penalty for heavy and falling back tactic.

Breton wrote:

And yes, there’s still a loophole where people will try to force UM flyers to take a -2 penalty for heavy and falling back tactic.

Thats a fundamentally different discussion than "hey guyz I'm falling back but not falling back so now I can shoot you in the face with all my guns even though I'm still within an inch cause I got super-smurf doctrine powers".

 Ishagu wrote:
My concern is that whilst Marines are indeed more effective at dealing damage, they are now worse at dealing with Knights and from what we currently have, are no more survivable.

Yes, Intercessors are awesome. Great troops. Yes, the strats are much better and the chapter specific powers are so far pretty nice.

Ultras in specific are worse at clearing out the meta's favourite tap dancing Robots, but that's fine - I understand why RG was changed.

The cost increases are really painful, however. There was no need whatsoever to nerf the Repulsors. If you focus on Primaris, as I now do because the army looks so much better on the table, you're left with a real lack of options for high impact, high durability units.

The army is still very small, and very elite. I think they can do some quality damage to an opponent but would suffer just as much in return, likely more.

The better rules were a system shock precisely because they were so rubbish in the past books. Once the smoke clears it will become apparent that the army isn't going to be a meta buster.

The other supplaments could change that, of course, but Ultras are certainly not going to be a hyper dominant force. I actually see better combos in the White Scars books.

A couple um grav devs in a pod will put a big hurt on a knight. Smash captains are widely available now. An executioner can auto hit with all of its weapons. Vindicators bring D6 shots.

There's a lot to unpack.

I am just looking forward to seeing how all the changes translate to real life games. Next month is going to be fun.

Sterling191 wrote:

Breton wrote:

And yes, there’s still a loophole where people will try to force UM flyers to take a -2 penalty for heavy and falling back tactic.

Thats a fundamentally different discussion than "hey guyz I'm falling back but not falling back so now I can shoot you in the face with all my guns even though I'm still within an inch cause I got super-smurf doctrine powers".

you wouldn’t have been able to do it within an inch. That was the whole determined by range thing. Within 1 you can only shoot pistols. I never said they could shoot the big guns within 1” and having fallen back I think they have to fall back outside the 1” to boot.

And no, it’s not a fundamentally different discussion, it’s the karmic justice side of the same discussion coin. A UM flyer isn’t worse than any other flyer and should only get the one -1. Getting a 0 vs the people who make them take a -2 would have been a little delicious.

Breton wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Breton wrote:

And yes, there’s still a loophole where people will try to force UM flyers to take a -2 penalty for heavy and falling back tactic.

Thats a fundamentally different discussion than "hey guyz I'm falling back but not falling back so now I can shoot you in the face with all my guns even though I'm still within an inch cause I got super-smurf doctrine powers".

you wouldn’t have been able to do it within an inch. That was the whole determined by range thing. Within 1 you can only shoot pistols. I never said they could shoot the big guns within 1” and having fallen back I think they have to fall back outside the 1” to boot.

And no, it’s not a fundamentally different discussion, it’s the karmic justice side of the same discussion coin. A UM flyer isn’t worse than any other flyer and should only get the one -1. Getting a 0 vs the people who make them take a -2 would have been a little delicious.

I was quite surprised GW didn't fix that with the new book.

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

Gman and 2 repulsors using anti infantry weapons against Knights wasn't an army it was bad rules being abused.

The fact that you think overwatch on 5+, 6+FNP and counting as double wounds for iron hands is barely viable rules shows just how biased your being.
Thats 3 solid buffs along with additional AP along with whatever bonus it is Iron hands have that we haven't seen yet. That you think a repulsor needed all of that and a points drop, is crazy.

215 might be fine for ih, but its insane for sw, ba, or even ws.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

Gman and 2 repulsors using anti infantry weapons against Knights wasn't an army it was bad rules being abused.

The fact that you think overwatch on 5+, 6+FNP and counting as double wounds for iron hands is barely viable rules shows just how biased your being.
Thats 3 solid buffs along with additional AP along with whatever bonus it is Iron hands have that we haven't seen yet. That you think a repulsor needed all of that and a points drop, is crazy.

This is a really bad argument. Essentially every army in the game is utilizing volume over quality. As a knight player I can tell you (yeah I play knights too) Nothing is more scary than getting charges by a unit of korne bezerkers or Tzangors with veterans of the long war...Is that? Rules abuse? Piss ant attacks killing knights is rules abuse? LOL. Come on man. You are just an ultramarines hater and you know it. Stop pretending to be objective. We are objectively talking about a bottom tier army strategy for space marines. SM with GMan averages an insanely low WR to the field over 2 years. So much all that "rules abuse" got them. It didn't need to get "fixed" it needed to actually get better to get to 50% WR at least. IF you can't agree with that are essentially admitting you don't care about balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
215 might be fine for ih, but its insane for sw, ba, or even ws.

My thoughts exactly. It's not great at that price but it's basically where it was before as the insane 3 CT traits you get are probably worth about the 30 point increase. It's still not a great unit though even as iron hands with these nerf.

Ironhands are gonna be running tripple vindi tripple redemptor and a levi with a ton of intercessors. They aren't gonna touch repulsors. Maybe a single executioner for long range antitank.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

Gman and 2 repulsors using anti infantry weapons against Knights wasn't an army it was bad rules being abused.

The fact that you think overwatch on 5+, 6+FNP and counting as double wounds for iron hands is barely viable rules shows just how biased your being.
Thats 3 solid buffs along with additional AP along with whatever bonus it is Iron hands have that we haven't seen yet. That you think a repulsor needed all of that and a points drop, is crazy.

This is a really bad argument. Essentially every army in the game is utilizing volume over quality. As a knight player I can tell you (yeah I play knights too) Nothing is more scary than getting charges by a unit of korne bezerkers or Tzangors with veterans of the long war...Is that? Rules abuse? Piss ant attacks killing knights is rules abuse? LOL. Come on man. You are just an ultramarines hater and you know it. Stop pretending to be objective. We are objectively talking about a bottom tier army strategy for space marines. SM with GMan averages an insanely low WR to the field over 2 years. So much all that "rules abuse" got them. It didn't need to get "fixed" it needed to actually get better to get to 50% WR at least. IF you can't agree with that are essentially admitting you don't care about balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
215 might be fine for ih, but its insane for sw, ba, or even ws.

My thoughts exactly. It's not great at that price but it's basically where it was before as the insane 3 CT traits you get are probably worth about the 30 point increase. It's still not a great unit though even as iron hands with these nerf.

Ironhands are gonna be running tripple vindi tripple redemptor and a levi with a ton of intercessors. They aren't gonna touch repulsors. Maybe a single executioner for long range antitank.

You seem more bitter about the repulsors than anything. Did you perhaps make a whoopsie and buy some expecting a massive points break or to push a meta list?

If something is where it was before a points hike because it got 3 decent new rules, then that's not a nerf, it's just a change.

Ultimately a lot of people will branch out and try different stuff, they will use alternative lists because they'll enjoy playing that way and experimenting. When you rule something out as useless, you actually mean they're useless to you, when plenty of none die hard meta players will no doubt have fun with their new ultramarine repulsors following this book.

Repulsors do fit under a Deredeo shield. That's something.

Dudeface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

Gman and 2 repulsors using anti infantry weapons against Knights wasn't an army it was bad rules being abused.

The fact that you think overwatch on 5+, 6+FNP and counting as double wounds for iron hands is barely viable rules shows just how biased your being.
Thats 3 solid buffs along with additional AP along with whatever bonus it is Iron hands have that we haven't seen yet. That you think a repulsor needed all of that and a points drop, is crazy.

This is a really bad argument. Essentially every army in the game is utilizing volume over quality. As a knight player I can tell you (yeah I play knights too) Nothing is more scary than getting charges by a unit of korne bezerkers or Tzangors with veterans of the long war...Is that? Rules abuse? Piss ant attacks killing knights is rules abuse? LOL. Come on man. You are just an ultramarines hater and you know it. Stop pretending to be objective. We are objectively talking about a bottom tier army strategy for space marines. SM with GMan averages an insanely low WR to the field over 2 years. So much all that "rules abuse" got them. It didn't need to get "fixed" it needed to actually get better to get to 50% WR at least. IF you can't agree with that are essentially admitting you don't care about balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
215 might be fine for ih, but its insane for sw, ba, or even ws.

My thoughts exactly. It's not great at that price but it's basically where it was before as the insane 3 CT traits you get are probably worth about the 30 point increase. It's still not a great unit though even as iron hands with these nerf.

Ironhands are gonna be running tripple vindi tripple redemptor and a levi with a ton of intercessors. They aren't gonna touch repulsors. Maybe a single executioner for long range antitank.

You seem more bitter about the repulsors than anything. Did you perhaps make a whoopsie and buy some expecting a massive points break or to push a meta list?

If something is where it was before a points hike because it got 3 decent new rules, then that's not a nerf, it's just a change.

Ultimately a lot of people will branch out and try different stuff, they will use alternative lists because they'll enjoy playing that way and experimenting. When you rule something out as useless, you actually mean they're useless to you, when plenty of none die hard meta players will no doubt have fun with their new ultramarine repulsors following this book.

First of all I had no idea the space marine codex was coming this soon. It was just a rumor it was coming at all. I did figure that the repulsor types could only get better though and I like their models and play style (I like big tanks) but nerfed? Heck no. That is asinine. Overall the unit got worse - it a nerf. Army rules are difficult to determine value anyways - this is why point reductions is what space marines needed. Chapter tactics are supposed to be free though.
Want a list of everything I am disappointed about?
Gman nerf
repulsor/exectuoner nerf
Eliminators not being able to be taken in 6 man units.
Suppressors not being able to be taken in 6 man units.
Loss of vigilis stratagems (nerfed in the codex- some are just missing)
Chaplain disciplines are much weaker than CSM counterparts.
Ultramarine tactic not getting changed (even despite gman being ultra nerfed)
New transport can't carry aggressors.
Most primaris HQ have no options.

There is plenty to be happy about but also a lot of missed opportunities and mistakes. Not sure why so miffed. This is GW - I should know at this point not to get excited about marines finally not sucking. They must always suck.






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Martel732 wrote:
Repulsors do fit under a Deredeo shield. That's something.

If it wasn't the most idiotic looking model that would be a lot more interesting.

Ironically I actually play ultramarines got probably 4k points of them.

I also have about 3-4k of knights.

Funny thing is pre GW nerfing FW to heck I was actually having some sucess with actual mono knights as using unusual units that dont fall prey to peoples go to answer for knights was surprisingly effective.

I'm looking forward to playing my ultramarines because I wasn't playing the Gman dubble repulsor, cheeser list, I was actually using appropriate weapons for appropriate targets. My lists just got way better and even gained from the Gman rewrite.

They look like the should finally actually be able to go round for round with my tau instead of being tabled turn 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the repulsor, I'm withholding judgement, and hope that if we do decide it's something we dislike we can get it changed with CA 2019.

What is to hold judgement on? Overcosted model gets raised in price by 15% with it's best combo nerfed to oblivion and only receives light bonuses to AP sometimes as a result and chapter tactics which should have already applied anyways. It is unplayable as ultramarines and at best a medium/low tier option for ironhands at that price now. Just to put in a little perspective The Castelan knight which dominated competitive play for a long time got a 15% point increase to 700 ish from 600 and now nobody plays it. A Repulsor is no where near the Castellan was and got the same level nerf based on percentage. It is sheer incompetence to make that Nerf. It hurts the army more than you know too. Repuslors are essential to competitive marine game play because they are fly and ignore move penalties - the rest of the army basically cant move. Sure the new ultras tactical doct allows you to but not if you get touched in CC (that is a big drawback). Compared to the harlequins general ability to fallback and act as normal it quite a joke. The ability to move and shoot heavies is a good one no doubt but seriously...I just lots reroll wounds on my whole army and I have a really crappy chapter tactic. Ultramarines are now worse than they were before. Literally...nerfing an army with a 40% competitive win rate. Incompetence at it's finest.

Gman and 2 repulsors using anti infantry weapons against Knights wasn't an army it was bad rules being abused.

The fact that you think overwatch on 5+, 6+FNP and counting as double wounds for iron hands is barely viable rules shows just how biased your being.
Thats 3 solid buffs along with additional AP along with whatever bonus it is Iron hands have that we haven't seen yet. That you think a repulsor needed all of that and a points drop, is crazy.

This is a really bad argument. Essentially every army in the game is utilizing volume over quality. As a knight player I can tell you (yeah I play knights too) Nothing is more scary than getting charges by a unit of korne bezerkers or Tzangors with veterans of the long war...Is that? Rules abuse? Piss ant attacks killing knights is rules abuse? LOL. Come on man. You are just an ultramarines hater and you know it. Stop pretending to be objective. We are objectively talking about a bottom tier army strategy for space marines. SM with GMan averages an insanely low WR to the field over 2 years. So much all that "rules abuse" got them.

I'm not a UM hater - my Marines are UM-descendants, even. They're my favorite chapter.

However, my love for Ultramarines makes me hate "Gman + Tanks" even more. Sure, it was the most effective build of their list. That didn't make it "Ultramarines" in anything but name.

What screems UltraMarines? A variety of Marine times, preferably at least Tacs, Devs, and ASMs. PA Marines being the bulk of the force. Using the right tool for the job - so Lascannons vs vehicles, Flamers/Boltguns/fists vs hordes, Plasma vs elite infantry, and so forth.

What doesn't scream UltraMarines? Single huge beatstick character and 5 tanks. With just a couple doods - often some BT mixed in for the strat - for CP/slots.

Hating the "UltraMarines are really just tank drivers" mentality is in no way hating UltraMarines.

Sure, Gman gave armies that used the 'UltraMarine' name a win. But those armies weren't UltraMarines.

It didn't need to get "fixed" it needed to actually get better to get to 50% WR at least. IF you can't agree with that are essentially admitting you don't care about balance.

Then play FlipACoin. You can get a 50% WR with Gman any day with that game. Or paint your Knights blue and pretend they're Primaris Centurion Primes or something. But please let GW make UltraMarines an army again.

I do care about balance. But if they buffed Gman back to what he was, then either they make Marines with him balanced and thus make all other Marines trash, or they make Marines without him balanced, and Marines with him OP. Either is bad.

If you have terrible internal balance in a book, and that book isn't top-tier anymore, it's quite common for the right step to be a nerf to the best thing and buff to lots of other things. It's called internal balance. Most of us like it. And it's a lot easier to do external balance when you don't have such a lopsided single-subfaction distorting the internal balance so bad.

So, obviously, not agreeing with such a silly theory is nothing at all like not caring about balance.

GMan lists were the reverse of how marines should function, imo.

The list I was typically running was actually 40 intercessors a levi dread and gman tiggy phobos libi and primaris ancient and some extra points that I dabbled with. I had the most success with that list. That was a supper fluffy lists. 40 marines and a dread fighting in ranks? I guess I can do it now and still move while I do it...I'll autolose to MEQ armies though. Oh well. Can't have a chance to win them all apparently.

Deredeo looking idiotic? Those are fighting words.