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I'd hasten to add that Guilliman is almost impossible to point accurately. So much of his worth is tied into his aura buffs, but the value of those is dependent on what is in the aura. Because that's so variable and the impact it has on a lit is so drastic, how do you price it?

Case in hand if he has a pair of repulsors next to him and ups their damage output by a further 60-70% (arbitrary made up numbers) you added 300 or so points of value to the army. Sticking 30 tac marines around him will net you a couple of hundred worth of value tops. Obviously these are generalist statements and don't take survivability into account, but hopefully give an idea of why he's so hard for them to balance correctly. It would be easier if he had a mediocre buff aura and baked more power into him personally somehow.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deredeo looking idiotic? Those are fighting words.

It looks like someone cutt a boat in half and smashed it over a contemptor dreads head...contemptors are also pretty ugly. They look like some crap I was making with legos when I was 6 years old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
I'd hasten to add that Guilliman is almost impossible to point accurately. So much of his worth is tied into his aura buffs, but the value of those is dependent on what is in the aura. Because that's so variable and the impact it has on a lit is so drastic, how do you price it?

Case in hand if he has a pair of repulsors next to him and ups their damage output by a further 60-70% (arbitrary made up numbers) you added 300 or so points of value to the army. Sticking 30 tac marines around him will net you a couple of hundred worth of value tops. Obviously these are generalist statements and don't take survivability into account, but hopefully give an idea of why he's so hard for them to balance correctly. It would be easier if he had a mediocre buff aura and baked more power into him personally somehow.

You balance him by looking at competitive WR. If the WR was to high you raise his points - if the WR was too low you don't touch his points and buff other marine units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The list I was typically running was actually 40 intercessors a levi dread and gman tiggy phobos libi and primaris ancient and some extra points that I dabbled with. I had the most success with that list. That was a supper fluffy lists. 40 marines and a dread fighting in ranks? I guess I can do it now and still move while I do it...I'll autolose to MEQ armies though. Oh well. Can't have a chance to win them all apparently.

So Bobby G spearheading the force of nearly half the Company, all kitted identically? With Tiggy + Libby + another solo?

It sounds to me like you're playing Necron Warrior spam with better rules.

Where's the combined arms aspect? Where's the specialists in each squad? Where's the heavy support? FA skirmishers?

It's a spam list. UM spam PA, but PA of multiple varieties.

(Edit: Oops, thanks CrazyTerran.)

Well, half of a company, but yea.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The list I was typically running was actually 40 intercessors a levi dread and gman tiggy phobos libi and primaris ancient and some extra points that I dabbled with. I had the most success with that list. That was a supper fluffy lists. 40 marines and a dread fighting in ranks? I guess I can do it now and still move while I do it...I'll autolose to MEQ armies though. Oh well. Can't have a chance to win them all apparently.

So Bobby G spearheading the force of nearly half the Company, all kitted identically? With Tiggy + Libby + another solo?

It sounds to me like you're playing Necron Warrior spam with better rules.

Where's the combined arms aspect? Where's the specialists in each squad? Where's the heavy support? FA skirmishers?

It's a spam list. UM spam PA, but PA of multiple varieties.

(Edit: Oops, thanks CrazyTerran.)

Seeing as specialists in each squad hasn't been good ever and Primaris bringing that specialization in the entire squad, what's the problem?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The list I was typically running was actually 40 intercessors a levi dread and gman tiggy phobos libi and primaris ancient and some extra points that I dabbled with. I had the most success with that list. That was a supper fluffy lists. 40 marines and a dread fighting in ranks? I guess I can do it now and still move while I do it...I'll autolose to MEQ armies though. Oh well. Can't have a chance to win them all apparently.

So Bobby G spearheading the force of nearly half the Company, all kitted identically? With Tiggy + Libby + another solo?

It sounds to me like you're playing Necron Warrior spam with better rules.

Where's the combined arms aspect? Where's the specialists in each squad? Where's the heavy support? FA skirmishers?

It's a spam list. UM spam PA, but PA of multiple varieties.

(Edit: Oops, thanks CrazyTerran.)

Seeing as specialists in each squad hasn't been good ever and Primaris bringing that specialization in the entire squad, what's the problem?

I mean, that's the greatest thing ever, for all the players that loved having specialists in their squads!

Now, instead of specialists in our squads, we can trade all that sctick in for "Necron Warriors, but better" intercessor spam! Or "Aspect Warriors but better" Hellblasters/eliminators/etc. Or "Falcon/Hammerhead, but better" Repulsors/Executioners!

Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

Tempestus Scions do the whole “Tactical Squad” thing better than marines do.

Bharring wrote:


Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

Then play with old marines and problem solved?

Bharring wrote:

Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

So glad we have you here to tell us the permitted ways to play particular factions.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions do the whole “Tactical Squad” thing better than marines do.

I missed when Scions were given Assault Marines, Devestators, Rhinos and Drop Pods?

CapRichard wrote:

Bharring wrote:


Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

Then play with old marines and problem solved?

How does playing with OldMarines without Bobby G in a book balanced around taking Bobby G solve the problem? The point is, Bobby G shouldn't make "Armored Column" or "Intercessor Spam" the only way to play the book.

Sterling191 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

So glad we have you here to tell us the permitted ways to play particular factions.

Quite the opposite. I'm aggrevated by the idea that I "obviously" hate UltraMarines just because I want to be able to field them without Bobby G or 40 Intercessors.

I'm not saying those lists should be bad. I was just saying there's nothing "super fluffy" about UltraMarines using no Devs (or Primaris equivelants) or Tacs (or Primaris equivelents), or really anything else but characters. Any combined arms at all. So dismissing me (and others like me) that want UltraMarines as playable without Bobby G or spam as "hating UltraMarines" is bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum:
When I wrote "what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines", I'm not sure how everyone is reading that as "What I'm demanding you be limited to with your Marines".

What wasn't clear about that?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deredeo looking idiotic? Those are fighting words.

It looks like someone cutt a boat in half and smashed it over a contemptor dreads head...contemptors are also pretty ugly. They look like some crap I was making with legos when I was 6 years old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
I'd hasten to add that Guilliman is almost impossible to point accurately. So much of his worth is tied into his aura buffs, but the value of those is dependent on what is in the aura. Because that's so variable and the impact it has on a lit is so drastic, how do you price it?

Case in hand if he has a pair of repulsors next to him and ups their damage output by a further 60-70% (arbitrary made up numbers) you added 300 or so points of value to the army. Sticking 30 tac marines around him will net you a couple of hundred worth of value tops. Obviously these are generalist statements and don't take survivability into account, but hopefully give an idea of why he's so hard for them to balance correctly. It would be easier if he had a mediocre buff aura and baked more power into him personally somehow.

You balance him by looking at competitive WR. If the WR was to high you raise his points - if the WR was too low you don't touch his points and buff other marine units.

You do that and you end up with a situation where he's so expensive he only ever gets fielded with 1-2 units that are the perfect fit. Which is the exact opposite of what balance is about, it should be about making hard decisions and opportunity cost, not take these 3 models this exact way or don't bother.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The list I was typically running was actually 40 intercessors a levi dread and gman tiggy phobos libi and primaris ancient and some extra points that I dabbled with. I had the most success with that list. That was a supper fluffy lists. 40 marines and a dread fighting in ranks? I guess I can do it now and still move while I do it...I'll autolose to MEQ armies though. Oh well. Can't have a chance to win them all apparently.

So Bobby G spearheading the force of nearly half the Company, all kitted identically? With Tiggy + Libby + another solo?

It sounds to me like you're playing Necron Warrior spam with better rules.

Where's the combined arms aspect? Where's the specialists in each squad? Where's the heavy support? FA skirmishers?

It's a spam list. UM spam PA, but PA of multiple varieties.

(Edit: Oops, thanks CrazyTerran.)

Seeing as specialists in each squad hasn't been good ever and Primaris bringing that specialization in the entire squad, what's the problem?

I mean, that's the greatest thing ever, for all the players that loved having specialists in their squads!

Now, instead of specialists in our squads, we can trade all that sctick in for "Necron Warriors, but better" intercessor spam! Or "Aspect Warriors but better" Hellblasters/eliminators/etc. Or "Falcon/Hammerhead, but better" Repulsors/Executioners!

Sorry, but these things aren't what I'm looking to get from my UltraMarines.

You can deny it all you want, but Tactical Marines have always had a terrible setup, even now when they get Relentless Lite.

Not everyone plays the game in the same way, if you think a certain setup is bad from a competitive/math-hammer point then that doesn't mean someone that plays more narratively can't enjoy them for what they are.

So, has everyone seen the new strategems? Autohitting Assault bolters? Rapidfire 2 bolt rifles? Stalker Bolters can now target characters and do mortal wounds?

This is getting friggin ridiculous. We haven't even seen the other sub codex's and this is way out of hand.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, has everyone seen the new strategems? Autohitting Assault bolters? Rapidfire 2 bolt rifles? Stalker Bolters can now target characters and do mortal wounds?

This is getting friggin ridiculous. We haven't even seen the other sub codex's and this is way out of hand.

Wait till you realize that the Hunterslayer also ignores LOS and Targeting restrictions. Gman over there? Take D3 mortals. Demon prince is monsterous? Take D3 mortals...

Don't forget that each intercessor can take a Stalker bolt rifle! That's a potential for 30 mortal wounds! Guess what guys? Intercessors can 1 shot A KNIGHT.

Stop the car....I wanna get off now...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, has everyone seen the new strategems? Autohitting Assault bolters? Rapidfire 2 bolt rifles? Stalker Bolters can now target characters and do mortal wounds?

This is getting friggin ridiculous. We haven't even seen the other sub codex's and this is way out of hand.

Where are you seeing that? I've watched several codex review and haven't seen anything but the rapid fire stratagem. Which isn't actually new. All of those were stratagems from vigilis.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
.....Intercessors can 1 shot A KNIGHT.

Stop the car....I wanna get off now...

I think you can relax. A single fire prism can 1 shot a Knight too, but that doesn't mean it's likely to at all. In order to drop a Knight reliably, you need 3 Prisms and 1CP to Link Fire (and even then I've seen Knight survive a volley). That costs a bit more than a Knight.
Same goes for the Intercessors. You'd need well more points-worth of them to drop a Knight.

-

30 mortal wounds? Wut?
1. The strat only works on 1 unit, so 10 mortals with a perfect roll of all 6s, statistically more like 1.5.
2. The strat existed before in Vigilus and no one cared.
3. If you had enough Intercessors to do 30 wounds in 1 turn to a Knight you’ve paid more than the Knight cost so its all balanced anyways.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Don't forget that each intercessor can take a Stalker bolt rifle! That's a potential for 30 mortal wounds! Guess what guys? Intercessors can 1 shot A KNIGHT.

Stop the car....I wanna get off now...

Oh look, its spaz out time again.

But, I thought new marines still sucked ? Now they are back to being OP ? I can't handle all the back and forth, I need to know are they OP or Poop ? I'm so confused.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
But, I thought new marines still sucked ? Now they are back to being OP ? I can't handle all the back and forth, I need to know are they OP or Poop ? I'm so confused.

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Xeno your entire codex got bonus AP across the whole army…. wounds, attacks and multiple point drops plus all sorts of strats. Do you even have the book yet?

How you can complain is beyond me.. You codex has a bad unit in it? Woopse friggin doodle. welcome to 40k where most codex have 60% of their entries dog gak.

Heaven forbid you have to think and use right weapons for right targets rather than spam 40 intercessors with g man and expect to win purely through ROF re-roll everything... Most of us having to choose bwteen fine cast or gtfo units would kill their first borns for a kick ass codex and constant stream of new releases...

 Argive wrote:
Xeno your entire codex got bonus AP across the whole army…. wounds, attacks and multiple point drops plus all sorts of strats. Do you even have the book yet?

How you can complain is beyond me.. You codex has a bad unit in it? Woopse friggin doodle. welcome to 40k where most codex have 60% of their entries dog gak.

Heaven forbid you have to think and use right weapons for right targets rather than spam 40 intercessors with g man and expect to win purely through ROF re-roll everything... You are giving marine players a bad rep as most of us would kill their first borns for a kick ass codex and constand stream of new releases...

When going MONO Marines. It's bad

AngryAngel80 wrote:
But, I thought new marines still sucked ? Now they are back to being OP ? I can't handle all the back and forth, I need to know are they OP or Poop ? I'm so confused.

To answer seriously to you probably not so serious question, I think they're mostly fine. Of course some units are still overcosted or just bad. I however fear that with the plethora of new special rules there will be some (probably unforeseen) combinations that will prove to be a bit too much. One obvious thing that comes to mind is the Ultra super doctrine with Aggressors and Repulsor Executioners. Being able to always double shoot with them is pretty damn insane, especially as the Aggressors were buffed already.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did Vindicators go to d6 shots? I thought I heard something about that.

If they get D6 all the time I'm getting 3 immediately.

Yup, Demolisher cannon now always gets D6 shots.

How to get the Aggressors up the table is the sticking point. Unless you want to put them in a Repulsor and paint an even larger ‘shoot me’ sign on a unit with no invuln.

bort wrote:
How to get the Aggressors up the table is the sticking point. Unless you want to put them in a Repulsor and paint an even larger ‘shoot me’ sign on a unit with no invuln.

Los blocking terrain is better than a 2++

 Argive wrote:
Xeno your entire codex got bonus AP across the whole army…. wounds, attacks and multiple point drops plus all sorts of strats. Do you even have the book yet?

How you can complain is beyond me.. You codex has a bad unit in it? Woopse friggin doodle. welcome to 40k where most codex have 60% of their entries dog gak.

Heaven forbid you have to think and use right weapons for right targets rather than spam 40 intercessors with g man and expect to win purely through ROF re-roll everything... Most of us having to choose bwteen fine cast or gtfo units would kill their first borns for a kick ass codex and constant stream of new releases...

True - I am getting a healthy dose of plastic crack compared to eldar for marines but I play all the armies. you have my sympathy if all you want is new eldar minis to build and paint. Have you considered quins? I have a fair sized eldar force too. All ulthwe. Realistically I use the same strategy with eldar as well - except I don't have to rally around a 6" bubble buff. I deep strike 20-40 gaurdians and shoot the doomed target + I take starcannon warwalkers because I plan to shoot them at doomed target. I take 2-3 fireprisims and use linked fire. Reliability is the name of the game.

Imagine you spent like 500 quid on 3 repuslors and 2 executioners. Got them all painted and then suddenly they both get nerfed by about 15% point cost - when they already werent that great flying around with 3+ saves and no invunes. I think you'd be equally bitter as me. Your favroite and best painted model by far gets nerfed into oblivion (Guilliman). Your chapter tactic (which might as well not even exist in most games) is ignored while every other chapter tactic gets buffed (when they were already better). It is a pretty depressing day to play Ultramarines. They did get some neat new rules but it isn't nearly cosolidation for the losses. The army got weaker and it was already pretty freaking weak. A not ass chapter tactic really should have come with the nerf to gman.

I literally could not beat tau or admech or eldar with space marines. Granted all I face is really well built armies. It seems to me there is a giant disconnect between the rules makers and people who actually understand how the game is played.

You keep saying the UM tactic sucks. And yet models with FLY are considered pretty damn good, if they're shooty.