Space Marine Codex Round Up

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**Martel732**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, that‘s the story of 8th.

Every Codex for every army mainly improved the damage output (dpa? damage per turn? damage per point?) with ever more shots, more attacks, more and better re-rolls, more double-activations, better AP, more ways to ignore modifiers or silly things like range or line of sight, made cc-units get in there more reliable, etc.. yet most armies are still basically only as resilient/defensive as they were in index-days (and the few non-Horde exceptions like -1 armies are apparently getting rolled back as well).

I don’t see the overall trend towards ever more glasshammer-40K changing anytime soon.

Fair. I will take my +1 W gravis and be very happy. I've said all along they were costed like 3W models.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, that‘s the story of 8th.

Every Codex for every army mainly improved the damage output (dpa? damage per turn? damage per point?) with ever more shots, more attacks, more and better re-rolls, more double-activations, better AP, more ways to ignore modifiers or silly things like range or line of sight, made cc-units get in there more reliable, etc.. yet most armies are still basically only as resilient/defensive as they were in index-days (and the few non-Horde exceptions like -1 armies are apparently getting rolled back as well).

I don’t see the overall trend towards ever more glasshammer-40K changing anytime soon.

Fair. I will take my +1 W gravis and be very happy. I've said all along they were costed like 3W models.

It's true you did - and they were. Aggressors are certainly the most improved unit.

**Martel732**

I don't know. I can think of a lot of uses for BA bolter inceptors now that were just not possible. Bolter inceptors are particuarly good with upon wings of fire in ITC, because I can eliminate units off objectives without having to roll a charge, and they can shoot past some screens. Particularly a 9+4 screen.

**BrianDavion**

So according to BOLS non-white scars marines have lost bike captains

**Martel732**

Can't say I"m shocked.

**Insectum7**

BrianDavion wrote:
So according to BOLS non-white scars marines have lost bike captains

That stinks, but I'm also not shocked.

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
Can't say I"m shocked.

yeah neither am I. it's a shame as they where so popular with so many players. with any luck in the future we'll get primaris hover bikes and a primaris bike captain.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. I can think of a lot of uses for BA bolter inceptors now that were just not possible. Bolter inceptors are particuarly good with upon wings of fire in ITC, because I can eliminate units off objectives without having to roll a charge, and they can shoot past some screens. Particularly a 9+4 screen.

Do they still do mortals on charge only on a 6?

**Martel732**

Probably? I shoot with them, not charge.

**Xenomancers**

BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Can't say I"m shocked.

yeah neither am I. it's a shame as they where so popular with so many players. with any luck in the future we'll get primaris hover bikes and a primaris bike captain.

LOL can't wait for hover bike captains.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

HEY!

Lay off my GreyKnights. They are crying salty tears of suckitude FOR THIS ENTIRE EDITION. No one has had it worse than GK.

**Martel732**

BA for a while. DA right now. No joke. GK are ahead of DA in win rate and were ahead of BA until those two guys went on a tear. Without this update, BA would have sunk back down, imo.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Martel732 wrote:
BA for a while. DA right now. No joke. GK are ahead of DA in win rate and were ahead of BA until those two guys went on a tear. Without this update, BA would have sunk back down, imo.

Dude, you have FW crap. You have leviathans, and all that. You have Smash Captains. You have Hellblasters, and half way decent rules. Don't be daft. GK have troops that are worse than most, cost slightly less than Custodes, their entire Psykic line got the nerf bat in the first few months, and their only purpose, to defeat daemons, got nerfed when the daemon codex came out.

NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

**Martel732**

I'm not debating that. I'm just stating the outcomes. My hypothesis is that mortal wound generation might be a big factor. Also, paladins are amazing as they have the magical 3W. Plus those insane charcters with the price drops.

Turns out it is close, and in the GK favor vis a vis DA currently and BA too for most of 2019.

**Sterling191**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Dude, you have FW crap. You have leviathans, and all that. You have Smash Captains. You have Hellblasters, and half way decent rules. Don't be daft. GK have troops that are worse than most, cost slightly less than Custodes, their entire Psykic line got the nerf bat in the first few months, and their only purpose, to defeat daemons, got nerfed when the daemon codex came out.

NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

Strikes are 21 points apiece. Custodians clock in at 52+. Chill out.

**Martel732**

Strike guys are great until the opponent's turn. GK have a lot of problems, but so do BA and DA currently.

**Slayer-Fan123**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
BA for a while. DA right now. No joke. GK are ahead of DA in win rate and were ahead of BA until those two guys went on a tear. Without this update, BA would have sunk back down, imo.

Dude, you have FW crap. You have leviathans, and all that. You have Smash Captains. You have Hellblasters, and half way decent rules. Don't be daft. GK have troops that are worse than most, cost slightly less than Custodes, their entire Psykic line got the nerf bat in the first few months, and their only purpose, to defeat daemons, got nerfed when the daemon codex came out.

NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

Leviathans suck as Blood Angels because the moment you take one gun you lose an attack.

**Martel732**

I wouldn't say they SUCK. Storm cannons are pretty OP.

**Sterling191**

Martel732 wrote:
Strike guys are great until the opponent's turn. GK have a lot of problems, but so do BA and DA currently.

I dont disagree. Most of GK success comes from application of characters. I just take exception to histrionics, and terrible math.

**Martel732**

The melee weapons on strike guys are really good, they just usually get zorfed before they can use them. They're usually my first target vs GKs. Usually.

**BrianDavion**

I suspect "grey knight armies" are mostly supreme command detachments of dreadknight GMs

**Martel732**

Well, they have stats for mono GK, and for primary detachment. So that's probably not quite right, you need 1001 pts of GK to be primary detachment I think.

**Xenomancers**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
To be fair, the new SM codex provides:

Discounts across a wide range of units, a pretty consistent community request.
Chapter Tactics applied to all units, a pretty consistent community request.

If that was all it did, I don't think there would be a lot of room to complain. However, they went beyond that and provided:

Updated units, improved Marines in general.
Improved some of the more underwhelming weapons.
Added more to differentiate the chapters from one another (new strats, new chapter abilities, etc).

Then they even went beyond that:

They provided incentive not to soup without penalizing soup, a pretty consistent community request.

I mean, I don't think Xeno is wildly off-base, this doesn't instantly make Marines top tier, but it definitely gives them a puncher's chance.

Lastly, it's obvious that they listened to the community even if they didn't just write every suggestion you had into the new book verbatim. Maybe give it a ride and see how it plays given that they clearly listened and responded.

The discounts are minimal. -1 per tac marine is nice. Cheaper suppressors - not even sure why cause they were already good. Bonus wounds to gravis (only seems fair). Stalkers got a little better but bolt rifle is still better. Eliminators are just good all around.
Nerfs to gman/ repuslors/ lots of stratagems more expensive for the same effect.
Bonus AP and special doctrine if you don't take allies.

Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.

**Martel732**

The suppressors probably got discount b/c they aren't gravis and didn't get +1 W. They get wiped up by 2 damage fast.

**Daedalus81**

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect "grey knight armies" are mostly supreme command detachments of dreadknight GMs

Nada. Dreadknights are a liability. With Draigo being dirt cheap, S8, +1 to wound spell, with 3D AP4 and no hit penalty he makes a pretty big dent.

**Martel732**

Xenomancers wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
To be fair, the new SM codex provides:

Discounts across a wide range of units, a pretty consistent community request.
Chapter Tactics applied to all units, a pretty consistent community request.

If that was all it did, I don't think there would be a lot of room to complain. However, they went beyond that and provided:

Updated units, improved Marines in general.
Improved some of the more underwhelming weapons.
Added more to differentiate the chapters from one another (new strats, new chapter abilities, etc).

Then they even went beyond that:

They provided incentive not to soup without penalizing soup, a pretty consistent community request.

I mean, I don't think Xeno is wildly off-base, this doesn't instantly make Marines top tier, but it definitely gives them a puncher's chance.

Lastly, it's obvious that they listened to the community even if they didn't just write every suggestion you had into the new book verbatim. Maybe give it a ride and see how it plays given that they clearly listened and responded.

The discounts are minimal. -1 per tac marine is nice. Cheaper suppressors - not even sure why cause they were already good. Bonus wounds to gravis (only seems fair). Stalkers got a little better but bolt rifle is still better. Eliminators are just good all around.
Nerfs to gman/ repuslors/ lots of stratagems more expensive for the same effect.
Bonus AP and special doctrine if you don't take allies.

Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.

I do. And that's for BA. Gravis buff, spell buff, new ways to pressure, equipment recosting, etc. Maybe BA fall short of 50%, but I don't think IH or Sallies do.

**Crimson**

This is unbelievable! Martel is being optimistic about Space Marines! Xeno, being more pessimistic than Martel should be a clear sign that you're being completely unreasonably negative.

**AlmightyWalrus**

TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
How is that a good thing when the next codex is going to be OP GAK?

Easy on the doom and gloom Cassandra.

Cassandra was right though; people just didn't believe her. That's probably not the analogy you wanted to go for.

**Dudeface**

Xenomancers wrote:
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
To be fair, the new SM codex provides:

Discounts across a wide range of units, a pretty consistent community request.
Chapter Tactics applied to all units, a pretty consistent community request.

If that was all it did, I don't think there would be a lot of room to complain. However, they went beyond that and provided:

Updated units, improved Marines in general.
Improved some of the more underwhelming weapons.
Added more to differentiate the chapters from one another (new strats, new chapter abilities, etc).

Then they even went beyond that:

They provided incentive not to soup without penalizing soup, a pretty consistent community request.

I mean, I don't think Xeno is wildly off-base, this doesn't instantly make Marines top tier, but it definitely gives them a puncher's chance.

Lastly, it's obvious that they listened to the community even if they didn't just write every suggestion you had into the new book verbatim. Maybe give it a ride and see how it plays given that they clearly listened and responded.

The discounts are minimal. -1 per tac marine is nice. Cheaper suppressors - not even sure why cause they were already good. Bonus wounds to gravis (only seems fair). Stalkers got a little better but bolt rifle is still better. Eliminators are just good all around.
Nerfs to gman/ repuslors/ lots of stratagems more expensive for the same effect.
Bonus AP and special doctrine if you don't take allies.

Honestly - you seem to be approaching this with a level head. There is nothing in here IMO that will take a 40% WR army and make it 50%.

But the other 95%+ of the player base that aren't running hardcore tourney lists seem to be happy with the changes. This happens a lot in pc games, something that's crap in the hands of the pros can be amazing to other people if their opponents aren't at top tier play style.

Random example, heroes of the storm has a mage kael'thas who has a huge ban/win rate in bottom end play and dominates games, but by the time you hit pros he's barely picked because people know how to handle him.

Nerf for the masses or buff for the 2% of the player base and make casual games hell?

**Xenomancers**

Crimson wrote:
This is unbelievable! Martel is being optimistic about Space Marines! Xeno, being more pessimistic than Martel should be a clear sign that you're being completely unreasonably negative.

Realistically BA are being buffed really hard. They are a melle army getting +1 attack across the board. If they get doctrines (which they will) they will have the same shooting potential as all other marines to go along with a 5+ FNP bubble. For a blood angels player you gotta be feeling pretty good right now. Nothing wrong with that. His army deserves to get buffed. Mine didn't deserve to get nerfed though.