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Xenomancers wrote: .... Which is in particular why these doctrines aren't going to make much a difference.
I agree for things like Plasma, Lascannons, etc. Doctrines aren't going to shift the meta for those. But turning an AP-0 Bolter/Assault 3 Autobolt rifle into AP-1 is significant, and AP-1 Bolt Rifle being AP-2 is even better.
And that's what so great about this change for Marines: it makes the "small arms" stuff much more threatening, which if fitting for Marines regardless of how it translates to gameplay.
And I for one appreciate that it's a faction wide biff without making them OP. That is always how buffs should be
-
For sure. It will help those things. It wont exceed previous gman buff level. Which has already proven not to capable of high win rate. That is my argument. The goal of this codex should not have been to bring ultras in line with the rest of the chapters. It should have been to elevate all marines to a competitive level. IMO that is not accomplished. IMO all they have done is shift around which chapters are going to be played with very unimpressive results. I could be wrong. Ironhands doctrine if it has as much benifit as ultras could actually produce a viable army.
Also in general "chapters" should not be special in the sense that they are different from Siamhan/Ulthwe - they are just CWE. I see all marines as basically being equal. It's annoying to me that special characters play such a huge roll in marines but I have the models so I want to use them. 6 codex for each chapter is the exact opposite to what everyone has been wanting for a long time.
bullyboy wrote: The GMan nerf is the absolute best thing to happen to the codex. It will encourage players to look at other options, playstyles etc and if these don't match up competitively (which no one is in a position to say currently) then they can be adjusted with FAQ/CA since there isn't the GMan crutch to skew the results. Huge thumbs up from me with the direction of this codex.
What's absolute crazy talk is that the SM line hasn't been given a massive boost. For them to be still non-competitive after this it would mean that they would have to had been absolute bottom tier, even way lower than GKs and that's just not true.
And technically, soup is not completely out of the question, you will just be souping different Astartes which to maximize the playstyle of each.
And make ultramarine players sad, and from what I have learned on the internet, everyone fething hates ultramarine players because that one guy wrote a bad codex once.
Here’s the deal, space marines have right now one competitive mono marine list. Just one. And when the new codex drops, that one is gone, and nothing is replacing it from what we have seen currently, though I have some folks dropping hints that totally one of the supplements is gonna super charge marines something fierce. But as it stands, marines are no longer competitive mono faction in any list. But a lot of people are fine with this because marine players get super attached to their subfactions more than the overall faction, and the one competitive list was those scummy ultramarines that we on the internet have to fething hate for the sins of Matt Ward, and so a lot of folks are cheering because their brand of space marines is getting a bit better while the hated one is being knee capped. But a bit better doesn’t mean they will ever hang with Eldar. Until one of those supplements appears and super charges one of the chapters
Speak truth brother.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 16:43:25
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: .... Which is in particular why these doctrines aren't going to make much a difference.
I agree for things like Plasma, Lascannons, etc. Doctrines aren't going to shift the meta for those. But turning an AP-0 Bolter/Assault 3 Autobolt rifle into AP-1 is significant, and AP-1 Bolt Rifle being AP-2 is even better.
And that's what so great about this change for Marines: it makes the "small arms" stuff much more threatening, which if fitting for Marines regardless of how it translates to gameplay.
And I for one appreciate that it's a faction wide biff without making them OP. That is always how buffs should be
-
For sure. It will help those things. It wont exceed previous gman buff level. Which has already proven not to capable of high win rate. That is my argument. The goal of this codex should not have been to bring ultras in line with the rest of the chapters. It should have been to elevate all marines to a competitive level.
If your goal is to elevate all Marines to competitive levels, why is your measuring stick "Did Gman lists get stronger or weaker"? Gman lists are, by definition, UM-only lists.
To accomplish that goal, unless you buff each specific other subfaction with an equally-strong-but-different (because seperate has never had a problem of being equal...), you necessarily must nerf the "strongest" before buffing the shared options.
IMO that is not accomplished. IMO all they have done is shift around which chapters are going to be played with very unimpressive results. I could be wrong. Ironhands doctrine if it has as much benifit as ultras could actually produce a viable army.
That's a very reasonable stance. Not sure I disagree.
Also in general "chapters" should not be special in the sense that they are different from Siamhan/Ulthwe - they are just CWE. I see all marines as basically being equal.
Agree. Although I'd also rather see CWE also not have hugely-different between Craftworlds (maybe between Warhosts, but not Craftworlds). But totally agree I'd like to see *less* differentiation between Chapters.
It's annoying to me that special characters play such a huge roll in marines but I have the models so I want to use them.
Hence why I'm glad to see Gman nerfed.
And very 6 codex for each chapter is the exact opposite to what everyone has been wanting for a long time.
Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
I’m still not sold on the Whirlwind. It was always the worst of the indirect options, though did get 5pts cheaper. And isn’t the fire twice strat like 2cp and require no LOS? Even if 1cp, which is an okay cost, the restriction is oddly limiting on some tables. You’ll have to reserve a tank sized Los blocker for a unit that has the low point cost and decent toughness of a unit you probably would prefer the enemy shot at.
I’d love to be proven wrong, I’ve had a 2nd edition Whirlwind sitting on my shelf for over 20 years that each edition I take it down, play a game or two with it, realize still sucks, and put it back up.
...Heh, also just occurred to me, the older, slightly smaller Rhino chassis is going to be easier to hide out of LOS, so mine is unintentionally modeled for advantage.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
And LandRaiders are horribly priced.
Not really, but no one wants to risk taking them with knights kicking around.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
For starters - the landraider is also overcosted so it is a terrible bench mark. The reason is likely 2 fold - the transport capacity is being hugely overvalued. The godhammer LR just went down 20 points So that might actually be reasonable now but its still not great. The transport ability for 10 dudes can't have a value of more than 20 points. Because you can deep strike for that cost. Deep strike is obviously better than a transport. They seem to be charging you something like 40-50 for that - which is outrageous. Being in a transport is actually really dangerous. You have a 1 in 6 chance per model of being slayed when the vehicle is destroyed.
Lets just comapre the custodes MBT.
It's basically a repulsor with a much better main gun 8 shots str 8 ap-3 d3 damage hits on 2's with POTMS A pretty nice secondary weapon with 6 shots ap -2 str 6
It also moves 14"
Has a 5++ save too.
Basically it gives up 2 wounds and transport capacity to have comparable offense (it has a better main gun but about 15 less chaff shots) - it also has better gun range.
It has all the special rules of the repuslor. D6 explosion and POTMS.
Cost of this tank?
210?
Cost of new repuslor? In the 320 range?
Are you effing kidding me?
Why am I paying 100 more point to have an overall equally comparable unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bort wrote: I’m still not sold on the Whirlwind. It was always the worst of the indirect options, though did get 5pts cheaper. And isn’t the fire twice strat like 2cp and require no LOS? Even if 1cp, which is an okay cost, the restriction is oddly limiting on some tables. You’ll have to reserve a tank sized Los blocker for a unit that has the low point cost and decent toughness of a unit you probably would prefer the enemy shot at.
I’d love to be proven wrong, I’ve had a 2nd edition Whirlwind sitting on my shelf for over 20 years that each edition I take it down, play a game or two with it, realize still sucks, and put it back up.
...Heh, also just occurred to me, the older, slightly smaller Rhino chassis is going to be easier to hide out of LOS, so mine is unintentionally modeled for advantage.
They werent even worth it to buff them with gman. Shooting twice is a comparable effect...I did gman and whirlwinds for sngs a few times and they were just okay.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
And LandRaiders are horribly priced.
Not really, but no one wants to risk taking them with knights kicking around.
Or literally any lascannon type weapon turning it into pulp. Same with repulsors. Funny how actually good units don't have this issue. What am I gonna shoot at a unit of grots to make them disappear with ease? Basically nothing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 17:33:11
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Or literally any lascannon type weapon turning it into pulp. Same with repulsors. Funny how actually good units don't have this issue. What am I gonna shoot at a unit of grots to make them disappear with ease? Basically nothing.
There are plenty of good units sans invulnerable that die just as fast, if not faster than a land raider, but they show up, because they're a smaller individual investment.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
It should, but land raiders should be cheaper. You will lose games just from having such an expensive model with no invuln.
bullyboy wrote: The GMan nerf is the absolute best thing to happen to the codex. It will encourage players to look at other options, playstyles etc and if these don't match up competitively (which no one is in a position to say currently) then they can be adjusted with FAQ/CA since there isn't the GMan crutch to skew the results. Huge thumbs up from me with the direction of this codex.
What's absolute crazy talk is that the SM line hasn't been given a massive boost. For them to be still non-competitive after this it would mean that they would have to had been absolute bottom tier, even way lower than GKs and that's just not true.
And technically, soup is not completely out of the question, you will just be souping different Astartes which to maximize the playstyle of each.
And make ultramarine players sad, and from what I have learned on the internet, everyone fething hates ultramarine players because that one guy wrote a bad codex once.
Here’s the deal, space marines have right now one competitive mono marine list. Just one. And when the new codex drops, that one is gone, and nothing is replacing it from what we have seen currently, though I have some folks dropping hints that totally one of the supplements is gonna super charge marines something fierce. But as it stands, marines are no longer competitive mono faction in any list. But a lot of people are fine with this because marine players get super attached to their subfactions more than the overall faction, and the one competitive list was those scummy ultramarines [...]
That "one list" is Gman, 2 Repulsors, and filler. It's *an* UM list, but not the only UM list. Non-Gman UM lists are no more competitive than IH/RG/IF/etc. And anyone who's been playing UM armies for longer than 8th Ed has an army that didn't have Gman or Repulsors.
Much of where we're talking past eachother is that, to me, an UM list is a combined-arms list. They're the scions of the Codex, and as such should be using Tacs, Devs, and ASM (or their replacements) in concert - working together to do more than any one option alone could. So the idea of replacing all my Marines with Tanks is a nonstarter for some of us.
The one competitive list did use a new UM model. But most of the list (Repulsors, Preds, and even Gman) are UM in name only - they didn't even get UM chapter tactics (until the new book)! So the "one competitive build" is looked at as scummy, even by "classical" UM players, not because they're UM, but because it's a beardy/cheesy list. Not simply a "take the best stuff" kind of cheese, but a "Take models to double dip on rules benefits on units not primarily intended for those rules" kind of cheese. A "Build a list nothing like the fluff because it's good" kind of cheese.
I love UM. I hate that that list is good. It's up there almost with CWE Air Wing for "Silly thing this game shouldn't have" in that regard. But the list is good in large part because Gman's aura is so game-changing. It's more-than-double firepower, in most cases. On an *aura*. Remember all the hate when Doom gave a conditional probable buff that maxed out in the best cases at ~80% against a single unit? How OP that was? How hard that is to balance? What do you do with an Aura that's more than 100%? Without reigning that in, you can either:
-Make units that can get the buff good enough to compete with the buff, but be trash without it
-Make units that can compete without the buff, but are OP with it
So you're stuck with a best case of either making Gman lists OP and non-Gman lists OK, or Gman lists OK, and non-Gman lists trash. Gman needed to go (much like Ynnari - good riddence).
Marines had one not-quite-competitive build. That got nerfed. That sucks for people who enjoyed playing that way (which is a legitimate way to play, just not my way). But it had to go for the good of the game. Now, it's possible to buff Marines so that other lists aren't necessarily trash - without making Gman lists OP. It's possible they failed on this regard, but there's a lot of good in the book. Almost everything got better. Lots of things got notably better. Some things got a lot better.
We'll see if the Repulsor list got too heavily nerfed. I hope when things shake out you can still play the Armored Column you want to. But I'd rather see non-Gman lists get better than continue the "Gman or bust" mentality this edition have stuck Marines with.
(I don't own a Repulsor. I like bringing a Pred or Razorback or even two, but I don't like most of my Marine list being armor - that's what IG is for, to me. To each their own.)
great, build your thematic list. Any admech, tau, eldar, and more armies will beat you 90 percent of the time. The new codex and supplement will change nothing at all in this regard. Marines playing the way they 'should' in a fluff does NOT win games. I wish I could show up with a combined list all transport mounted to reflect the space marine's penchance for rapid redeployment, with a number of tactical squads, some devs, and some assault, and actually WIN a game. But I have tried, and it don't work.
But now the people who wanted to play space marines and have a chance of winning games in anything but the most casual metas got their one shot kneecapped. It is so depressingly easy to build a leaf blower list out of a number of codexes, and those lists fething rock and roll space marines. And this isn't counting people going in with an eye to list building, this is literally just taking good shooting with no other tricks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
And LandRaiders are horribly priced.
Not really, but no one wants to risk taking them with knights kicking around.
IKs dont keep my lrs off the table. At least, not alone.
bort wrote: I’m still not sold on the Whirlwind. It was always the worst of the indirect options, though did get 5pts cheaper. And isn’t the fire twice strat like 2cp and require no LOS? Even if 1cp, which is an okay cost, the restriction is oddly limiting on some tables. You’ll have to reserve a tank sized Los blocker for a unit that has the low point cost and decent toughness of a unit you probably would prefer the enemy shot at.
I’d love to be proven wrong, I’ve had a 2nd edition Whirlwind sitting on my shelf for over 20 years that each edition I take it down, play a game or two with it, realize still sucks, and put it back up.
...Heh, also just occurred to me, the older, slightly smaller Rhino chassis is going to be easier to hide out of LOS, so mine is unintentionally modeled for advantage.
Even if a whirlwind is 20% cheaper than a wyvern it is currently much worse. But with a ~7% pts drop, shoot twice stratagem and ap - 1 the first turn it looks viable. It has slightly better BS, slightly better against t5 and t8+. Longer range, better ap and a bit tougher. Much fewer shots but overall close performance point for point now. Not better but an alternative if you need some artillery and you arent fielding an astra battalion already.
Might even have some useful chapter tactics for it too. I thought about using an airbrush already to repaint my tanks and depending on the full rules I am thinking about making my vehicles in a slightly different color and play them as a different Space Marine chapter with some better vehicle tactics. Perhaps using imperial fists to ignore cover. Doesnt matter if you have fewer shots if they are much more effective against units in cover +ap1
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate how knights broke the game. Now everything from infantry to list building is based around whether or not it can withstand or destroy a knight.
In previous editions was it this bad with other Super-heavies? Did Baneblades and the like break the game the same way?
Previous editions didn't have Super heavies. Super-heavies being in games outside of Apocalypse was something 6th ed added, and it stuck. 6th led to the mess that was 7th (which was more like 6.5), and 8th ed was introduced to sort it all out.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
bullyboy wrote: The GMan nerf is the absolute best thing to happen to the codex. It will encourage players to look at other options, playstyles etc and if these don't match up competitively (which no one is in a position to say currently) then they can be adjusted with FAQ/CA since there isn't the GMan crutch to skew the results. Huge thumbs up from me with the direction of this codex.
What's absolute crazy talk is that the SM line hasn't been given a massive boost. For them to be still non-competitive after this it would mean that they would have to had been absolute bottom tier, even way lower than GKs and that's just not true.
And technically, soup is not completely out of the question, you will just be souping different Astartes which to maximize the playstyle of each.
And make ultramarine players sad, and from what I have learned on the internet, everyone fething hates ultramarine players because that one guy wrote a bad codex once.
Here’s the deal, space marines have right now one competitive mono marine list. Just one. And when the new codex drops, that one is gone, and nothing is replacing it from what we have seen currently, though I have some folks dropping hints that totally one of the supplements is gonna super charge marines something fierce. But as it stands, marines are no longer competitive mono faction in any list. But a lot of people are fine with this because marine players get super attached to their subfactions more than the overall faction, and the one competitive list was those scummy ultramarines [...]
That "one list" is Gman, 2 Repulsors, and filler. It's *an* UM list, but not the only UM list. Non-Gman UM lists are no more competitive than IH/RG/IF/etc. And anyone who's been playing UM armies for longer than 8th Ed has an army that didn't have Gman or Repulsors.
Much of where we're talking past eachother is that, to me, an UM list is a combined-arms list. They're the scions of the Codex, and as such should be using Tacs, Devs, and ASM (or their replacements) in concert - working together to do more than any one option alone could. So the idea of replacing all my Marines with Tanks is a nonstarter for some of us.
The one competitive list did use a new UM model. But most of the list (Repulsors, Preds, and even Gman) are UM in name only - they didn't even get UM chapter tactics (until the new book)! So the "one competitive build" is looked at as scummy, even by "classical" UM players, not because they're UM, but because it's a beardy/cheesy list. Not simply a "take the best stuff" kind of cheese, but a "Take models to double dip on rules benefits on units not primarily intended for those rules" kind of cheese. A "Build a list nothing like the fluff because it's good" kind of cheese.
I love UM. I hate that that list is good. It's up there almost with CWE Air Wing for "Silly thing this game shouldn't have" in that regard. But the list is good in large part because Gman's aura is so game-changing. It's more-than-double firepower, in most cases. On an *aura*. Remember all the hate when Doom gave a conditional probable buff that maxed out in the best cases at ~80% against a single unit? How OP that was? How hard that is to balance? What do you do with an Aura that's more than 100%? Without reigning that in, you can either:
-Make units that can get the buff good enough to compete with the buff, but be trash without it
-Make units that can compete without the buff, but are OP with it
So you're stuck with a best case of either making Gman lists OP and non-Gman lists OK, or Gman lists OK, and non-Gman lists trash. Gman needed to go (much like Ynnari - good riddence).
Marines had one not-quite-competitive build. That got nerfed. That sucks for people who enjoyed playing that way (which is a legitimate way to play, just not my way). But it had to go for the good of the game. Now, it's possible to buff Marines so that other lists aren't necessarily trash - without making Gman lists OP. It's possible they failed on this regard, but there's a lot of good in the book. Almost everything got better. Lots of things got notably better. Some things got a lot better.
We'll see if the Repulsor list got too heavily nerfed. I hope when things shake out you can still play the Armored Column you want to. But I'd rather see non-Gman lists get better than continue the "Gman or bust" mentality this edition have stuck Marines with.
(I don't own a Repulsor. I like bringing a Pred or Razorback or even two, but I don't like most of my Marine list being armor - that's what IG is for, to me. To each their own.)
great, build your thematic list. Any admech, tau, eldar, and more armies will beat you 90 percent of the time. The new codex and supplement will change nothing at all in this regard. Marines playing the way they 'should' in a fluff does NOT win games. I wish I could show up with a combined list all transport mounted to reflect the space marine's penchance for rapid redeployment, with a number of tactical squads, some devs, and some assault, and actually WIN a game. But I have tried, and it don't work.
The perhaps the problem is *the rest of the book sucks*?
Ideally, they should fix the rest of the book. Now, lets pretend they fixed the rest of the book but didn't change Gman, so you could build a competitive non-Gman list. Great. But make a 400pt hole and put Gman in that list, and now you've got an even *better* list. So, if the non-Gman list is competitive, the Gman list is now OP.
*that* is why some of us are happy Gman got nerfed.
Now, did they make the rest of the Marine book competitive? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.
But now the people who wanted to play space marines and have a chance of winning games in anything but the most casual metas got their one shot kneecapped. It is so depressingly easy to build a leaf blower list out of a number of codexes, and those lists fething rock and roll space marines. And this isn't counting people going in with an eye to list building, this is literally just taking good shooting with no other tricks.
People who want to play Space Marines are hosed with the current book. They weren't kneecapped. Those who traded Space Marines away for an armored column led by a Demon Prince wannabe and a chance to win are the ones who were kneecapped. If you want to play an armored column or such, that's fine. But don't talk down to us while we're celebrating our buffs just because one particular "Space Marine in name only" list got nerfed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 18:10:05
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate how knights broke the game. Now everything from infantry to list building is based around whether or not it can withstand or destroy a knight.
In previous editions was it this bad with other Super-heavies? Did Baneblades and the like break the game the same way?
I'm not sure IKs are the real culprit.
I think guardsmen and PBs are just as unhealthy. Cheap models per wound with invulns are even worse imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 18:12:08
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate how knights broke the game. Now everything from infantry to list building is based around whether or not it can withstand or destroy a knight.
In previous editions was it this bad with other Super-heavies? Did Baneblades and the like break the game the same way?
That I agree with, Knights are not the right scale for 2000pt and smaller games, they invalidate almost every prior heavy vehicle, which is stupid. But that’s how GW wants to do things, so sadly stuck with them.
The Land Raider was always overpriced, but they could still do passably just cause many people didn’t bother to take the firepower necessary to kill them. With Knights everyone does.
I never played vs Baneblades etc back when they were overpriced FW only since so many prohibited FW back then.
Edit: yeah, crazy hordes break it the other way with no more templates too, but I’d still say the potential for 5 24w t8s running around warps things more, even if it’s not a top list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 18:15:30
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate how knights broke the game. Now everything from infantry to list building is based around whether or not it can withstand or destroy a knight.
In previous editions was it this bad with other Super-heavies? Did Baneblades and the like break the game the same way?
Previous editions didn't have Super heavies. Super-heavies being in games outside of Apocalypse was something 6th ed added, and it stuck. 6th led to the mess that was 7th (which was more like 6.5), and 8th ed was introduced to sort it all out.
No, they just had Monstrous Creatures vs Vehicles.
fraser1191 wrote: Do we have a total points value on the invictor dread?
Also shouldn't the pilot be a techmarine? I thought all operators /pilots were techmarines
No - Pilots aren't all tech marines. A tech marine can pilot any vehicle though. Typically it is tactical marines that drive vehicles.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The repulsor points increase was obviously in relation to Chapter Tactics and Doctrines...especially doctrines. It has so many weapons that have automatically gained -1AP first turn and continues to add more damage when you shift to Tactical. No other marine vehicle comes close to matching the firepower. So, the test will be, was it warranted? Certainly no one is in a position right now to claim otherwise. We will have to see as the year progresses.
bullyboy wrote: The repulsor points increase was obviously in relation to Chapter Tactics and Doctrines...especially doctrines. It has so many weapons that have automatically gained -1AP first turn and continues to add more damage when you shift to Tactical. No other marine vehicle comes close to matching the firepower. So, the test will be, was it warranted? Certainly no one is in a position right now to claim otherwise. We will have to see as the year progresses.
Just consider this please. Every weapon in the codex is affected by doctrines. I am certainly in possition to claim otherwise also. Because I have a brain and am capable of thought. The Repulsor was already overcosted. Also if this is another round of codex for every army with this new anti souping structure giving out special bonus. Will we see similar point increases on Imperial guard stuff?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/15 19:12:30
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: Poison is very good vs most meta lists. Vehicle spam is uncommon and usually weak.
Eldar Flyer Spam, Triple Knights with Guard, Disco Lords. You were saying? I've pretty much dropped my FS venoms from my competitive list recently. I'm a regular tournament player and, whilst my meta is more ETC derived than ITC, I can say that it has plenty of vehicle heavy lists.
As an example, out of the last 2 60-90 man tournaments I've played (of which I came top 10 in one (8th? 7th? somewhere there) and ~20th in the second), my opponents have been: Knight and Guard (Poison is rubbish here), Pure IG (Posion is... ok I guess), Chaos with Tzaangor Bomb demon Princes and Friends (Poison is good here), Custodes and Knights (Lol splinter), Eldar Flyers (poison is near useless), Ad Mech Dragoons plus Knight (poor poison), Ad mech Cawl Bots (poison is good against the troops, but rubbish against the majority of the list), Imperial Guard Steel Legion Chimera and LR spam (yeah.....), Cutodes in an Orion Dropship and DSing (poison! no... wait), Genestealer Cult (OK Poison was great in this one).
The rest of my list has been pulling my ass out of the fire and I won 8/10 of those games, but the venoms have not been great except in lucky matchups. Eldar Flyer Spam is everywhere, as are Knights. I don't think Venoms are bad, in fact I really like them, but in the current meta they are a bit of a liability and there isn't really anything to replace them with in DE. Dropping my Venoms and Ravagers since the nerf has led me off into bringing a Harlie patrol with Skyweavers. Only tested it in prep so far, but we'll see how well the no venom or ravager list does at LGT.
I was under the strong impression infantry was king. Local events are ork/demin heavy, which reinforced this.
6 pt dudes with bs3+ seem amazing all the time.
Not really. Some of those lists show up, but they aren't winning much. Again I play in the European meta, so YMMV.
Martel732 wrote: Poison is very good vs most meta lists. Vehicle spam is uncommon and usually weak.
Eldar Flyer Spam, Triple Knights with Guard, Disco Lords. You were saying? I've pretty much dropped my FS venoms from my competitive list recently. I'm a regular tournament player and, whilst my meta is more ETC derived than ITC, I can say that it has plenty of vehicle heavy lists.
As an example, out of the last 2 60-90 man tournaments I've played (of which I came top 10 in one (8th? 7th? somewhere there) and ~20th in the second), my opponents have been: Knight and Guard (Poison is rubbish here), Pure IG (Posion is... ok I guess), Chaos with Tzaangor Bomb demon Princes and Friends (Poison is good here), Custodes and Knights (Lol splinter), Eldar Flyers (poison is near useless), Ad Mech Dragoons plus Knight (poor poison), Ad mech Cawl Bots (poison is good against the troops, but rubbish against the majority of the list), Imperial Guard Steel Legion Chimera and LR spam (yeah.....), Cutodes in an Orion Dropship and DSing (poison! no... wait), Genestealer Cult (OK Poison was great in this one).
The rest of my list has been pulling my ass out of the fire and I won 8/10 of those games, but the venoms have not been great except in lucky matchups. Eldar Flyer Spam is everywhere, as are Knights. I don't think Venoms are bad, in fact I really like them, but in the current meta they are a bit of a liability and there isn't really anything to replace them with in DE. Dropping my Venoms and Ravagers since the nerf has led me off into bringing a Harlie patrol with Skyweavers. Only tested it in prep so far, but we'll see how well the no venom or ravager list does at LGT.
I was under the strong impression infantry was king. Local events are ork/demin heavy, which reinforced this.
6 pt dudes with bs3+ seem amazing all the time.
Not really. Some of those lists show up, but they aren't winning much. Again I play in the European meta, so YMMV.
Yeah just a friendly reminder that a night fighter with 2 dessie is 135 points. One Thirty Five. You get 2.5 of these per repulsor. What an absolute joke of game balance. Why wouldn't you take 6 eldar flyers to a tournament?
This is why I get upset. The dessie cannon has been 15 points all eddition...The DE codex is loaded with OP gak they never nerf. Your gonna nerf my repulsor though and Gman at the same time? And DE clearly win more than Ultramarines? This is really started to get absurd guys. Wake up. Demand change. If you aren't upset. You are part of the problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 20:10:25
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