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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
And LandRaiders are horribly priced.
Not really, but no one wants to risk taking them with knights kicking around.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone honestly explain to me why they think the Repulsor is overcosted? It's a landraider with more guns, fly, and all the other Repulsor crap. Plus it can transport Primaris. It's a Primaris LR. LR's are about 300pts, for just a bunch of lascannons and a SB. This thing should cost more than a landraider....
It should, but land raiders should be cheaper. You will lose games just from having such an expensive model with no invuln.
It should if it has the same transport effect as a Land Raider, which it doesn't. The models you'd put in a Repulsor vs a Land Raider aren't the same. The Primaris only restriction on the Repulsor hurts it. For another 2 days there isn't a SC you can stick in it for 1 slot. Most of the Primaris Infantry already have a shortcut across the board, or don't want to cross the board anyway. You're pretty much stuck at Aggressors and support characters - No Sternguard, No Termies, No Company Vets, no Cents, No Repair Marines - making the Repulsor being used to transport a fat juicy target destined to remind of you of the scene from Dances With Wolves - a bunch of space marines standing on top with their arms thrown back waiting for the bullet. As long as people bring enough AT shooting to down a Knight - Expensive Tanksports like the LR and Repulsor either need to be equally durable, or have a reason to make things shoot at them less, not more.
Overpriced because of knights in this case. If a land raider is fairly priced until the knight meta exists, then the issue isn't the price or you punish lists that aren't designed to kill multiple knights a turn. In an ideal world what should be happening is that knights are prevalent > people spam AT to handle knights > AT heavy lists can't handle hordes > hordes struggle to kill knights etc. so you end up with a series of hard counters that force the game to keep shifting as different stuff becomes flavour of the month and no 1 list is unable to be countered. For whatever reason this hasn't really been happening too much and the outlier is a combination of souping and knights as they plug a lot of natural holes in forces.
Ideally most mono-codex armies should be able to be built to handle anything, ie balanced lists, but that's just an ideal now I think.
The fact that people feel like being able to build a list to remove 700 to 1000+ points in a single turn should even be a think to speeks volumes as to one of the core problems with 8th edition.
No army should really be able to put out enough dmage to be halfing your opponents army before they even get a chance to activate, that's rediculous levels of lethality. At that point it's not even close to be able to make a comeback from loosing the die foll for turn 1 it's game over by turn 2 with a 100% tabling.
The fact that people feel like being able to build a list to remove 700 to 1000+ points in a single turn should even be a think to speeks volumes as to one of the core problems with 8th edition.
No army should really be able to put out enough dmage to be halfing your opponents army before they even get a chance to activate, that's rediculous levels of lethality. At that point it's not even close to be able to make a comeback from loosing the die foll for turn 1 it's game over by turn 2 with a 100% tabling.
It's one model. Out of likely 3 or so. Let's not try and manipulate what we're talking about here. They're taking out one model/unit a turn with focused fire. The army that takes out 1000 points of knight on turn 1 is going to be crying when they see 2,000 points of guard infantry.
Overpriced because of knights in this case. If a land raider is fairly priced until the knight meta exists, then the issue isn't the price or you punish lists that aren't designed to kill multiple knights a turn. In an ideal world what should be happening is that knights are prevalent > people spam AT to handle knights > AT heavy lists can't handle hordes > hordes struggle to kill knights etc. so you end up with a series of hard counters that force the game to keep shifting as different stuff becomes flavour of the month and no 1 list is unable to be countered. For whatever reason this hasn't really been happening too much and the outlier is a combination of souping and knights as they plug a lot of natural holes in forces.
Ideally most mono-codex armies should be able to be built to handle anything, ie balanced lists, but that's just an ideal now I think.
I wouldn't say that either. If everyone's bringing a thousand points of tanks, be it three knights, or a bunch of Leman Russ, it doesn't matter why everyone has so much Anti Tank as well. It's just out there. And a 300 point Tanksport that doesn't have the same numbers of a Leman Russ, or the durability of a knight is just stuck in a no man's land. 2,000 points of IG Armored Company puts out a lot of tanks so they don't need to worry about the ONE tank. Both that list and the IK list will drag too much AT to the table for an army that is only bringing a couple transports at best. The big SM tanks aren't a Super Heavy like a knight even though they're around 75% of the cost of one... and they're not spammable like the Leman Russ. That's why they're priced wrong in a game that lets both extremes drive up the anti-tank that has to do SOMETHING with itself when facing not much tankiness.
The fact that people feel like being able to build a list to remove 700 to 1000+ points in a single turn should even be a think to speeks volumes as to one of the core problems with 8th edition.
No army should really be able to put out enough dmage to be halfing your opponents army before they even get a chance to activate, that's rediculous levels of lethality. At that point it's not even close to be able to make a comeback from loosing the die foll for turn 1 it's game over by turn 2 with a 100% tabling.
It's one model. Out of likely 3 or so. Let's not try and manipulate what we're talking about here. They're taking out one model/unit a turn with focused fire. The army that takes out 1000 points of knight on turn 1 is going to be crying when they see 2,000 points of guard infantry.
Overpriced because of knights in this case. If a land raider is fairly priced until the knight meta exists, then the issue isn't the price or you punish lists that aren't designed to kill multiple knights a turn. In an ideal world what should be happening is that knights are prevalent > people spam AT to handle knights > AT heavy lists can't handle hordes > hordes struggle to kill knights etc. so you end up with a series of hard counters that force the game to keep shifting as different stuff becomes flavour of the month and no 1 list is unable to be countered. For whatever reason this hasn't really been happening too much and the outlier is a combination of souping and knights as they plug a lot of natural holes in forces.
Ideally most mono-codex armies should be able to be built to handle anything, ie balanced lists, but that's just an ideal now I think.
I wouldn't say that either. If everyone's bringing a thousand points of tanks, be it three knights, or a bunch of Leman Russ, it doesn't matter why everyone has so much Anti Tank as well. It's just out there. And a 300 point Tanksport that doesn't have the same numbers of a Leman Russ, or the durability of a knight is just stuck in a no man's land. 2,000 points of IG Armored Company puts out a lot of tanks so they don't need to worry about the ONE tank. Both that list and the IK list will drag too much AT to the table for an army that is only bringing a couple transports at best. The big SM tanks aren't a Super Heavy like a knight even though they're around 75% of the cost of one... and they're not spammable like the Leman Russ. That's why they're priced wrong in a game that lets both extremes drive up the anti-tank that has to do SOMETHING with itself when facing not much tankiness.
The post I quoted said 2 knights not 1 and I've seen list that can take down 2 questorus class knights in a turn that's insane levels of lethality.
The counter play to different lists shouldn't always be just blast them off the table, knights should be the untableable list that you have to outscore, out play, not just wipe from the table.
If anything hoard lists shoukd similarly be a challenge for armies to table but be an army with limited damage output that you out damage all game and have to play smart to outscore.
Being able to remove 1000 points of the opponents army before it even acts is why we have turn 2 tabling games. With position and scoring not mattering. The offence for some lists really does need to be dialed back a bit otherwise loosing the roll off for going first is the decieding roll of the game.
It was one of marines old issues they had terrible offence in a game were the yard stick is 500-1000 points removed per turn when going first. Qhile they struggled to achieve 300-600.
My friend had delivery of both the new Codex and ultramarine supplement today. So, the stand out things for him were as follows:
1. Ultramarine doctrine counts all units that have moved but not advanced or fallback moves count as they have not moved. This means free PotMS to all vehicles, constant max range rapid fire shots and continuous double tapping agressors.
2. For 1CP an ultramarine unit that fell back can ignore the -1 to hit, and be allowed to charge in the charge phase. Confirmed that units with the fly keyword don't suffer the -1 to hit (unless a heavy weapon or it has PotMS) so the strat is really infantry focused, especially with shock assault.
3. The Psychic power scryers gaze allows you to automatically gain 1CP a turn, or allow a single ultramarine model in a unit to reroll one hit, wound and armour save a turn. Like Victor of the blood games, but can be used on a Sargent of a intercessor squad carrying a thunder hammer for example...
40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company
First of all - The spelling error is intentional. Kinda like people like to call my Primarch Girlyman - I call Urien Rakarth "Urine Rakarth". It's all for fun .
Oh okay. I hadn't heard that moniker for Urien before.
Second - the power of a codex comes from syerngies between units and also units being able to function on their own.
With you so far.
Xenomancers wrote: DE have no need to put these things in transports because they all take care of themselves nicely.
Er... no.
That's certainly true of Wracks and Mandrakes (though I doubt the latter would mind some extra protection). But Incubi? Wyches? The Archon's Court? Our entire HQ section bar the Haemonculi? You're really telling me none of these want/need transports?
Xenomancers wrote: Ofc venoms are for shooty units with poor defense. And while they don't do great against vehcials they do at least average vs infantry and often excell vs tough ones. The fact you can move into rapid fire turn 1 and have what I would call "unfair amounts of defense" for such a cheap unit which is also protects 5 glass cannons inside...they are a tremendous unit.
In my experience, moving into rapid-fire range is an excellent way to lose your Venoms, since all their protections are against shooting - not melee. What's more, if the enemy unit can encircle them then you can also kiss goodbye to the unit inside without your opponent ever needing to fire a shot against them.
Xenomancers wrote: I've fooled around putting incubi in them before and it actually worked out both times even though they are a terrible unit.
So, in spite of what you claimed earlier, units like Incubi do need to go in transports.
Xenomancers wrote: My beefs with the DE codex are really cosmetic - like...why don't incubi get kabal traits? and why isn't their another type of HQ for kabals to choose from?
I have rather more beefs with the army than you, I think. Almost all of which could be summed up with 'The ing HQ section'.
- Why do our HQs have 0 mobility options beyond transports? Our army includes Wings, Jetbikes and Skyboards and yet not a single one of our HQs can use even one of them.
- Why, when our HQs have no mobility options outside of transports do our transports not have space for them?
- Why does an army designed around open-topped transports give all its HQs auras that don't work inside, out of or into said transports?
- Why is the Archon so bloody expensive when he's no better than a 45pt Canoness?
- Why are the Shadowfield rules still stuck in 3rd edition?
- Why does our dedicated melee HQ have the worst melee stats and the worst melee weapon?
- Why was wargear turned into stratagems? It's not like we were overburned with options to begin with. Now we have literally no wargear options that aren't weapons.
- Why does the Haemonculus need 50 different weapons that are all variations on 'crap poison weapon' or 'even crappier weapon that isn't poisoned'?
- Why could our entire HQ section be replicated in form and function by someone throwing up on the codex?
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
- Why doesn't the Poison Tongue Kabal bonus work on the Poison Tongue artefact? I know this is petty but it doesn't make it any less bloody annoying. It doesn't work with the Djin Blade either (that is, the only Kabal that buffs melee won't buff melee if you take the only melee artefact). Boy, glad we've got all this synergy as Dark Eldar. - Where's the other half of our codex?
If you're saying that DE are currently strong, sure. I don't dispute that. But if I might repeat something I said in a different thread:
Spoiler:
Regarding the matter of DEHQs, I'm not too bothered about them being overcosted.
What really bothers me is that they're not fun.
I'm playing an army that's a mix of space-Dark-Elves, space-pirates, all-women-space-gladiators and the nightmarish creations of mad scientists (in space ).
However, as soon as it gets to our HQ section, all the fun and excitement drains away. Forget lions led by donkeys, it's like an entire menagerie (including many fantastical beasts) being led by narcoleptic accountants.
Where are the Archons with Scourge wings and clawed feet, falling on enemies like the birds of prey they now resemble? Where are the prizes weapons, armour and wargear Archons supposedly take into battle with them? Have they all developed severe spinal injuries that prevent them from carrying anything more cumbersome than a sword and pistol? What happened to Clone Fields and Ghostplate Armour?Where are the arcane artefacts and weapons that Haemonculi supposedly wield? Where are weapons like the Shattershard? Where are the Orbs of Despair? Where are the Succubi riding Jetbikes or Hellion Skyboards? Hell, where are the Succubi who are actually capable of going head-to-head with anything more formidable than a Master of Ordnance.
I can accept DEHQs not being efficiently costed, but do they really have to be so unbelievably bland? They've got barely any options (basically none if you discount all the false choices), no wargear beyond the most basic of weapons, no wings, skyboards or jetbikes, and no fun or interesting abilities, Is it really too much to ask that DEHQs have even the faintest spark of creativity in their design?
I'm sorry but Space Marines just got a second codex with a pile of buffs and extra rules, on top of even more releases, whilst Dark Eldar have been completely gutted, losing almost half their units, most of their wargear, and really anything that might make them remotely fun or interesting.
I'm sorry but I just can't feel sympathetic towards the army that constantly gains rules and models far in excess of any other in the game, especially when you're comparing it to one that hasn't even been thrown a single bone.
If only you had some other method of deep striking. Something that could deep strike even on turn one, despite the rules not allowing such for any other army.
Xenomancers wrote: Lack of invune saves accross the board except for HQ's which happen to be untargetable anyways.
I'm sorry to hear that AP is allowed to function against Space Marines. Clearly they should be above such petty rules.
Yep. SMs are the only army in the game with overcosted weapons.
Xenomancers wrote: Overcosted units core to forming stratagies (drop pods/storm ravens) reliance on plasma in an eddition where negative modifiers are everywhere(inclucing for moving with heavies) and increase the risk of outright slaying your models (SLAYING!).
And having been on the receiving end of that plasma, it is bloody devastating. Even against models with -1 to hit, the losses suffered to plasma overheats are a small price to pay for wiping enemy units off the table with ease.
Furthermore, overcharging is entirely optional in this edition. If you don't want to lost models to overheat then don't bloody overcharge them.
Xenomancers wrote: As a DE player myself. DE has not room to complain in a space marine thread.
Well, if you'll cast your mind back, my initial post was little more than a joke. Someone said that SMs had no good units to put in drop pods and I joked that I felt the same about the open-topped ability on DE vehicles.
You were the one who took issue with that and turned it into a full-fledged argument.
Xenomancers wrote: Unless it's about not getting any new models and with that I can sympathize (If plastic Incubi came out I would by 20 instantaniously). Also - the Voidraven is probably the sweeteest looking model in the game anyways - have noticed it's similarities with the Birttish Vulkan Bomber (probably my favorite plane in history)?
I mean, yeah, the lack of models are a fething huge issue. Partially because we've already lost so many options, yet not a single one has ever been returned or replaced. But also because new models are now the only way to get rules. I'd be perfectly happy just getting new rules and converting the relevant models myself but apparently that's not an option.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Going back to Land Raiders, I actually don't think the Crusader is in a terrible spot. It's 268pts with the SB and has reasonable Turn 1 survivability since if you go second you activate defensive positions for 1+ save. Vs Aeldari -4AP, that's still equivalent to having a 5++. It was better with Bolter Dsicipline on vehicles, but it at least has a chance to get your cargo upfield. As Dark Angels, it can also fall back and shoot for 2CP, so not just Ultras with the rule.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I hear ya man, I really do. However when all you do is say " These are bad ! These are bad ! " It gets nothing done, doesn't even give a reason for it. If all that mattered was the points cost of units, we'd be able to see GK crushing all as they've just gone down in points, i'm sure we'd find the sweet spot for them.
No ? Then the issues have to be deeper than, too cheap, too expensive.
Our ideas of whining has to be different then. As all i ever see is one sentence saying something sucks, pretty much all the time. No meat of the thought just, marines suck, guard cheap, Eldar OP, etc, etc till it comes back to BA sucks.
You can say what you want, but people are here to share ideas, there isn't really anything to share from this sucks, that is better, this is weak. I'm pretty sure everyone knows you think marines suck, guard are and will always be too cheap forever and all the standard dooms and glooms.
At this point though, is the issue really guard infantry ? How many big tournaments are pure guard winning exactly ? If it was just them, they should be rolling all tournaments on their own, if not, the problem is deeper. Deeper than cost, and deeper than just marines codex being weak feeling from some nerfs with a number of buffs.
How many are won by pure ik? Guard have a few annoying problem units that appear over and over bc of soup. Imo the castellan list that won earlier this year was just as reliant on 80 cheap ablatives as the actual ik. The merging of extremes is the problem. The castellan is less extreme, guardsmen are still extreme.
Maybe you never saw the threads, but i assume people dont want the same math rehashed.
Ultimately, too cheap, too expensive is as about as deep as the game gets imo.
Wow I couldnt have said it better myself. What you are paying for stuff is basically what this game is.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I have rather more beefs with the army than you, I think. Almost all of which could be summed up with 'The ing HQ section'.
- Why do our HQs have 0 mobility options beyond transports? Our army includes Wings, Jetbikes and Skyboards and yet not a single one of our HQs can use even one of them.
- Why, when our HQs have no mobility options outside of transports do our transports not have space for them?
- Why does an army designed around open-topped transports give all its HQs auras that don't work inside, out of or into said transports?
- Why is the Archon so bloody expensive when he's no better than a 45pt Canoness?
- Why are the Shadowfield rules still stuck in 3rd edition?
- Why does our dedicated melee HQ have the worst melee stats and the worst melee weapon?
- Why was wargear turned into stratagems? It's not like we were overburned with options to begin with. Now we have literally no wargear options that aren't weapons.
- Why does the Haemonculus need 50 different weapons that are all variations on 'crap poison weapon' or 'even crappier weapon that isn't poisoned'?
- Why could our entire HQ section be replicated in form and function by someone throwing up on the codex?
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
- Why doesn't the Poison Tongue Kabal bonus work on the Poison Tongue artefact? I know this is petty but it doesn't make it any less bloody annoying. It doesn't work with the Djin Blade either (that is, the only Kabal that buffs melee won't buff melee if you take the only melee artefact). Boy, glad we've got all this synergy as Dark Eldar.
- Where's the other half of our codex?
PCSD, Post-Chapterhouse-Stress-dissorder.
Same reason really why half the SM options for bikers etc are now index only, etc.
And i think it will go on and on. And at some point reintroduced for £7£/Euro.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 13:28:43
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
My beefs with the DE codex are really cosmetic - like...why don't incubi get kabal traits?
Because they're Aspect Warriors. They get Battle Focus instead. You just never notice because they don't have guns.
[Marines] Lack of invune saves accross the board except for HQ's which happen to be untargetable anyways.
Which is why IG, CWE, and Kabs are so garbage - lack of army-wide invulns!
Also - the Voidraven is probably the sweeteest looking model in the game anyways - have noticed it's similarities with the Birttish Vulkan Bomber (probably my favorite plane in history)?
Clearly factually wrong. It's like you've never even *seen* a FW Avatar! Pfft.
CapRichard wrote: Still, for reroll all wounds, from what I have understood, there is an UM thing that tags a unit at the start of the battle and everything gets all rerolls on it (correct me if I'm wrong on this), so for big treats you're still guillimaned, otherwise there is a FW chapter master, but that could be patched away.
Yes I believe you have to be within 6 inches of the target but it will no doubt be power. Perhaps in a very aggressive list Utlizing agressors and repuslors. Utilziign the team overwatch stratagem for protection and the reroll all wounds relic...It might just work. In my head though it seems quite suicidal.
bullyboy wrote: The repulsor points increase was obviously in relation to Chapter Tactics and Doctrines...especially doctrines. It has so many weapons that have automatically gained -1AP first turn and continues to add more damage when you shift to Tactical. No other marine vehicle comes close to matching the firepower. So, the test will be, was it warranted? Certainly no one is in a position right now to claim otherwise. We will have to see as the year progresses.
Just consider this please. Every weapon in the codex is affected by doctrines. I am certainly in possition to claim otherwise also. Because I have a brain and am capable of thought. The Repulsor was already overcosted. Also if this is another round of codex for every army with this new anti souping structure giving out special bonus. Will we see similar point increases on Imperial guard stuff?
Yes. Every weapon is affected by doctrines and the repulsor just happens to have far more weapons than any other vehicle. You basically made my point.
Until people play with the new codex and fully explore the combos, its all conjecture, even if you have a brain and sometimes use it.
30pts on a Repulsor is hardly game breaking anyway as you likely have reductions elsewhere that offset.
I'd say character THs were affected greater than the Repulsor.
It doesn't make sense - why single out the repuslor. If the docs affect all the weapons - every units should recieve comparable % increase in points.
Balance 101.
Assume:
-Repulsors are 90% good enough
-Vindicators are 50% good enough
-You want both to be ~100%
(Numbers are only for demonstration purposes. They're directionally accurate only.)
Option 1:
-Buff the book by doubling ability all-around.
Vindis are now good enoough! Woot! They're at 100%.
But now Repulsors are at 160%. Why take Vindis when you can take Repulsors! Why play any faction when Repulsors will kill you!
Marines are now an OP book. Vindis and everythign else works, but Repulsors dominate.
Option 2:
-Nerf Repulsors by nearly half - bringing them to 50%.
-Buff the book by doubling ability all-around.
Now Vindis and Repulsors both work at 100%. You can take either. Or something else. And the book is neither OP nor trash.
*That* is why you nerf the strongest stuff when buffing a book. Now, maybe the buffs didn't go far enough - that's a reasonable argument. But it certainly makes sense to nerf the Repulsor if the intention was for the buffs to bring the book up.
In fact - a lot of the units went down in price slightly. It just seems like a ploy to get people to buy the newer stuff. With the repulsor going up in price too it makes the executioner more apealing because it is just a better repulsor which has what the army neeeds (an actually formitable long range weapon) and the lowly priced impuslor seems like a bargain.
Which is why Reapers were so OP for so long - such a new kit, it's even Finecast! Or why Spears were so OP. That sweet super new resin conversion kit. For every OP new toy, there's an OP old toy. The Repulsor is still a "new toy", so nerfing it to drive sales on new stuff seems off.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah just a friendly reminder that a night fighter with 2 dessie is 135 points. One Thirty Five. You get 2.5 of these per repulsor. What an absolute joke of game balance. Why wouldn't you take 6 eldar flyers to a tournament?
This is why I get upset. The dessie cannon has been 15 points all eddition...The DE codex is loaded with OP gak they never nerf. Your gonna nerf my repulsor though and Gman at the same time? And DE clearly win more than Ultramarines? This is really started to get absurd guys. Wake up. Demand change. If you aren't upset. You are part of the problem.
Point of order - dissies took a bigger nerf losing doom than marines took with Bobby.
They're not really a huge deal any longer.
They are still better vs t8 than a dark lance and they still wound on 3's vs primaris and 1 shot them. Plus a cross codex synergy like that shouldn't exist anyways. That would be like buffing guard with the gman aura...how do you think that would have worked out? I think wed have guard close to 100% win rate if they had gman ultras buff.
It's more like Guard shooting Null Zoned targets. Should Null Zone have no impact on the enemy just because the shooter isn't a Marine?
It just goes to shot how bad the marine codex is - with doom and guide on their whole army - they cant manage higher than 40% win rate in competitive and they STILL nerf it. Marine hate is real even from other marine players. Rant Over. Mike drop.
The book doesn't have a 40% win rate. It's not out yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 14:17:13
In theory I agree with you, but the Repulsor is simply too offensive geared with no defensive gimmicks at all. They're just too fragile for their cost. I guess if people will take them at 215, they can't be too bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 14:19:33
Martel732 wrote: In theory I agree with you, but the Repulsor is simply too offensive geared with no defensive gimmicks at all.
Yeah. At some point stacking more offence on think just isn't worth the points if the durability isn't increased as well. It just becomes a liability as there is a good chance that the whole investment gets killed before it can do anything. Relating to which, I'm a bit bummed that the IHFNP isn't among the traits you can choose for your custom chapter, nor is the Sally -1 AP ignoring one.
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
Poison didn't remain exactly the same, it got worse. This is because Venoms went from 12 shots at 36" to 6 shots at 36" and 12 shots at 18". As this is one of our main poison delivery methods (the splinter cannon) it is a pretty big hit. On top of that alot of equivalents in other codexes had their firepower doubled. So everyone else doubled at optimal range, we halved. 12 Shots used to be impressive, especially at the range Venoms could act at. Now Assault Cannon Razroback have that (in 7th they had 4 shots I think!). The increase in toughness on targets you mentioned is then the cherry on top.
Are DE strong at the moment? Yeah, they are, but they are getting weaker as updates come out. They are MUCH weaker than a year ago and some of the boogieman units are no longer that strong. Particularly anything with disintegrators, which are now just worse grav cannons most of the time, how many people are maxing grav cannons again?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/16 14:35:58
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
Poison didn't remain exactly the same, it got worse. This is because Venoms went from 12 shots at 36" to 6 shots at 36" and 12 shots at 18". As this is one of our main poison delivery methods (the splinter cannon) it is a pretty big hit. On top of that alot of equivalents in other codexes had their firepower doubled. So everyone else doubled at optimal range, we halved. 12 Shots used to be impressive, especially at the range Venoms could act at. Now Assault Cannon Razroback have that (in 7th they had 4 shots I think!). The increase in toughness on targets you mentioned is then the cherry on top.
Are DE strong at the moment? Yeah, they are, but they are getting weaker as updates come out. They are MUCH weaker than a year ago and some of the boogieman units are no longer that strong. Particularly anything with disintegrators, which are now just worse grav cannons most of the time, how many people are maxing grav cannons again?
FFS a grav cannon is heavy (DE ignore heavy penalties) and cost 28 points prior to this codex. For 1 more shot. with 12" less range. Marines would spam dissie cannons if they could. It is easily the best weapon for the cost in the entire game.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
Poison didn't remain exactly the same, it got worse. This is because Venoms went from 12 shots at 36" to 6 shots at 36" and 12 shots at 18". As this is one of our main poison delivery methods (the splinter cannon) it is a pretty big hit. On top of that alot of equivalents in other codexes had their firepower doubled. So everyone else doubled at optimal range, we halved. 12 Shots used to be impressive, especially at the range Venoms could act at. Now Assault Cannon Razroback have that (in 7th they had 4 shots I think!). The increase in toughness on targets you mentioned is then the cherry on top.
Are DE strong at the moment? Yeah, they are, but they are getting weaker as updates come out. They are MUCH weaker than a year ago and some of the boogieman units are no longer that strong. Particularly anything with disintegrators, which are now just worse grav cannons most of the time, how many people are maxing grav cannons again?
FFS a grav cannon is heavy (DE ignore heavy penalties) and cost 28 points prior to this codex. For 1 more shot. with 12" less range. Marines would spam dissie cannons if they could. It is easily the best weapon for the cost in the entire game.
It's not even a weapon I take anymore. What is it good against? A minimum cost for 3 grav cannons is what? 149 points, minimum cost for 3 Disintegrators is 125. Disintegrators can't be taken on infantry. Are they better than grav cannons? Yeah, sure they are, but not that much better. They are worse than plasma guns.
Disintegrators cost 40 points each (including the ravager chassis), more if you take them on anything else. That's... not great. Plasma Inceptors are 59 (so 50% more) and have more shots, at a higher strength. They aren't considered to be awesome, though they are ok also.
You seem to really over estimate the disintegrator. Except for taking them on a crappy transport for 75 points per disintegrator, you are limited to a max of 15 in the army. Those 15 cost you 780 points (they do come with RWJF missiles as well, and a rubbish pop gun). Those 15 disintegrators do ~9 wounds to a knight (with max character buffs). That's worse than a drop podding grav dev squad (with the strat and character support) will do in the new codex. Against Guard they kill ~27 (so nearly 3 IS squads!) and against Orks with a KFF they manage to kill 13. They ruin Primaris marines, sure, but what thing common in the meta are disintegrators good against? Claiming they are 15 points in a vacuum is either very ill informed or extremely disingenuous.
Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units. Very expensive suicide units. Using a 36" gun is not a suicide run. Yes, they suffer vs IG and demons. So does every weapon in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 15:24:45
Martel732 wrote: Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units. Very expensive suicide units. Using a 36" gun is not a suicide run. Yes, they suffer vs IG and demons. So does every weapon in the game.
Ravagers are nto tough and are easy to kill at range. I wasn;t saying they suffer against IG and demons. I was saying they suffer against everything except primaris and, maybe, nobs. In fact I didn't even mention demons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 15:31:48
Martel732 wrote: Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units.
Not sure if that's going to be true still. With 3Ws per model now and Impulsors being available, I actually think it will be loads easier to ensure Plasmaceptors come in will enough support not to be vaped (except probably by their own hand rolling 1s)
Martel732 wrote: Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units. Very expensive suicide units. Using a 36" gun is not a suicide run. Yes, they suffer vs IG and demons. So does every weapon in the game.
Ravagers are nto tough and are easy to kill at range. I wasn;t saying they suffer against IG and demons. I was saying they suffer against everything except primaris and, maybe, nobs. In fact I didn't even mention demons.
Ravagers are frustratingly hard to kill. I don't know what yours are getting killed by, but most lists don't have the best tools. Lascannons and other low RoF high AP don't do it.
I'm mentioning demons. Because they are a very important data point. Even still, the S5 2 damage with 3 shots is decent vs PB.
Martel732 wrote: Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units.
Not sure if that's going to be true still. With 3Ws per model now and Impulsors being available, I actually think it will be loads easier to ensure Plasmaceptors come in will enough support not to be vaped (except probably by their own hand rolling 1s)
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I'm confident that most lists can still remove a handful of T5 models with no invuln very easily. "Support" in 40K doesn't stop you from being vaporized for the most part. Unless its Azrael. Ignore the stupid marine "support" units, and vaporize the inceptors. Not hard.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/16 15:38:54
Martel732 wrote: Ravagers are frustratingly hard to kill. I don't know what yours are getting killed by, but most lists don't have the best tools. Lascannons and other low RoF high AP don't do it.
I'm confident that most lists can still remove a handful of T5 models with no invuln very easily. "Support" in 40K doesn't stop you from being vaporized for the most part. Unless its Azrael. Ignore the stupid marine "support" units, and vaporize the inceptors. Not hard.
That just looks like viewpoint bias to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 15:43:59
Martel732 wrote: Fundamentally, plasma inceptors are suicide units.
Not sure if that's going to be true still. With 3Ws per model now and Impulsors being available, I actually think it will be loads easier to ensure Plasmaceptors come in will enough support not to be vaped (except probably by their own hand rolling 1s)
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I'm confident that most lists can still remove a handful of T5 models with no invuln very easily. "Support" in 40K doesn't stop you from being vaporized for the most part. Unless its Azrael. Ignore the stupid marine "support" units, and vaporize the inceptors. Not hard.
Agreed, if they get targeted, they'll still probably die. My point was that they don't have to be the only threat up close anymore, so there could be other targets distracting from them, like Hellblasters that just jumped out of Impulsors
- Why is poison such utter gak? So almost ever 'tough' unit had its wounds increased - often double or triple what they were before - and yet poison remained exactly the same (and it wasn't even good before). Oh yeah, Brilliant wheeze that.
Poison didn't remain exactly the same, it got worse. This is because Venoms went from 12 shots at 36" to 6 shots at 36" and 12 shots at 18". As this is one of our main poison delivery methods (the splinter cannon) it is a pretty big hit. On top of that alot of equivalents in other codexes had their firepower doubled. So everyone else doubled at optimal range, we halved. 12 Shots used to be impressive, especially at the range Venoms could act at. Now Assault Cannon Razroback have that (in 7th they had 4 shots I think!). The increase in toughness on targets you mentioned is then the cherry on top.
Are DE strong at the moment? Yeah, they are, but they are getting weaker as updates come out. They are MUCH weaker than a year ago and some of the boogieman units are no longer that strong. Particularly anything with disintegrators, which are now just worse grav cannons most of the time, how many people are maxing grav cannons again?
FFS a grav cannon is heavy (DE ignore heavy penalties) and cost 28 points prior to this codex. For 1 more shot. with 12" less range. Marines would spam dissie cannons if they could. It is easily the best weapon for the cost in the entire game.
It's not even a weapon I take anymore. What is it good against? A minimum cost for 3 grav cannons is what? 149 points, minimum cost for 3 Disintegrators is 125. Disintegrators can't be taken on infantry. Are they better than grav cannons? Yeah, sure they are, but not that much better. They are worse than plasma guns.
Disintegrators cost 40 points each (including the ravager chassis), more if you take them on anything else. That's... not great. Plasma Inceptors are 59 (so 50% more) and have more shots, at a higher strength. They aren't considered to be awesome, though they are ok also.
You seem to really over estimate the disintegrator. Except for taking them on a crappy transport for 75 points per disintegrator, you are limited to a max of 15 in the army. Those 15 cost you 780 points (they do come with RWJF missiles as well, and a rubbish pop gun). Those 15 disintegrators do ~9 wounds to a knight (with max character buffs). That's worse than a drop podding grav dev squad (with the strat and character support) will do in the new codex. Against Guard they kill ~27 (so nearly 3 IS squads!) and against Orks with a KFF they manage to kill 13. They ruin Primaris marines, sure, but what thing common in the meta are disintegrators good against? Claiming they are 15 points in a vacuum is either very ill informed or extremely disingenuous.
They are good against everything but the cheapest chaff in the game - where they are actually still pretty good there because they have ap-3 so no save. There is a reason tons of eldar armies take 3 dessie night fighters - it's not because dessies aren't good at killing things ether. It's a lot better than a plasmagun, a lot better than a star cannon, it outperforms darklance against vehicles. It's literally a plasma gun with none of the drawbacks. It doesn't slay you - it has good range - and has ROF out to its max range. Are you seriously coming into a thread about marines and talking about base unit costs? Do you know how superior the ravager is to every tool I have in space marines? Wound numbers are the same. T is lower and armor is lower but weapons tend to drop marine units to a 5+ save anyways. Ravagers have 5++. On demand -1 to hit. Better threat range. Way less cost than a predator with the ability to move and shoot with no penalty can always be exactly 36" away from their intended target. Maybe 2-3 units can shoot at a rav at any time realistically. That is not enough to kill it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 16:20:25
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Units need to be costed within the ally structure. Or, wait for them to be spammed in settings where data is collected. You need only raise the price till they are no longer spammed. GW goes overboard like with the flyrant triple nerf.
So you see the issue, but you think the fix should be rendering mono codex armies worse because the alliance system sucks ? I can't really say how head in the sand such a fix is. Especially when they already appear to notice the issue as they have been trying to slow roll fixes and nerfs to mix faction forces for awhile now. The latest codex being the ideal sign of that. If they keep pushing these changes to make it less attractive to mixed faction, and more rewarding to mono faction and fix the CPfubar they have going on, it'll be golden, without nerfs.
I have disagreed with a great many of the nerfs they rolled out. The only reason I at all agree with Gmans nerf is the fact that he unavoidably is factored into Marine costing, he's a monster they had to control or else make the only good marine lists Gman centric which sucks from a game play and fluff point of view. We will see what shakes out and if marines turn out better from it all, we'll see.
I disagree with the point raise on cultists as well, if you can dig through past stances. If your BA suck, it isn't Guards fault, as a lot of armies are better than BA, armies that function better without allies even. Look at some of the better nerfs you have seen, many of them are about limiting allies interactions with each other. Unless GW is dim they will start to see, allies make the game difficult to balance, especially with such a large pool of books in imperium armies. No amount of them nerfing Guard will make weaker armies any better, as guard arent the top right now. All you seem to do is want to be spiteful, even after acknowledging their cost isn't what knocks the game off course. I know you'll just respond with the same one sentence response but at some point you have to target the actual issues and not keep scape goating because Guard give you night terrors.
Now on topic of this post, the new marine book could be to blame for them being weaker. Though I don't think that'll be the case. We will need to see though, especially with how the changes alter actual game play and not just mental gymnastics. Until it shakes out, we just don't know for sure. Though we can all say one build to rule them all in a book is an issue to be dealt with, I just hope it shakes out better with the fixes in there.
Your both correct in that simplisticly Martel is correct when he says hoard infantry IG especially are too cheap, butnyour also correct in saying that it's more complex than that.
GW fundamentally fails or systematically undervalues time and time again the value of just having a model stand somewhere in 8th editions rules. This also contributes to a large part ibto why people feel Assualt armies don't work due to the requirements of movement and positioning.
Without this base value being set and then improved stats and abilities being costed on top of the basic value you end up with the mess that is 8th edition hoards, vastly different stats and power levels cosring effectively the same.
This was made even worse with GW's "Hot Fix" (actually makingnit worse) CP system changes which also rewards cheapest slot choices with a significant difference in CP generation.
The Marine's cidex shows the first step along the path to fixing aome of these issues with trying to balance 8th edition mono codex vrs souping. However untill they address the CP system I'm not entirely convinced that they have enough design space to improve certain codex's monobuild without making them the new Yannari.
This, is all I was trying to say and I agree. It's an issue that needs to be fixed and I hope eventually it is. as the current game as it stands ends up punishing monodex with high availability for allies to try and limit issues but really then only pushes you into soup which is what they tried to get away with changing Gman. Gman and friends led to a codex needing to be skewed in case you used Gman, which led to one way to play effectiely which sucks. So, they need to handle their CP and allies issue or else trying to balanced abuse just pushes people to abuse soup as it ends up as the only viable option, same as Gman lists ended up being.
I would much rather this thread be used for discussing the differences between old vs new codex and helping confirm/deny changes, rather than the continued angry bleating from the usual suspects about why the codex isn't good because this one clutch list wasn't made stronger or complaining about guard/knights/whateverthefeth.
Thousand Sons 
World Eaters
Imperial Fists 405th Company 
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ing 
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
