BrianDavion wrote:

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.

Lets assume for now, I was being facetious/sarcastic. How many models? Still just the one?

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

Look at 30k. One big core book with all the units available to all the Space Marines. Eighteen 'supplements' containing Legion-specific rules, unique units, named characters, etc., fifteen of which (to date) have been helpfully consolidated into another big red compilation book.

The problem with 40k's approach is that there's so much redundancy between books that GW starts deleting things to justify printing extra books (back in 4e two-special-weapon Tacticals were a thing anyone could have, now it's Space Wolves only, for instance). The second problem is that it requires GW to place certain First Founding chapters on a pedestal above others where if you're a Blood Angel, Dark Angel, or Space Wolf you get a whole range of models and an entire Codex, while if you're an Imperial Fist, Salamander, etc. you get one model and a paragraph in the Ultramarines book about how you also exist. If there was one central Codex and a body of supplements for everyone more people would get rules because GW wouldn't have to justify writing an entire extra Space Marine Codex to throw (Chapter (X)) a bone.

BrianDavion wrote:

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I own reasonable Dark Angels and Wolves armies (about 3000pts each) and some Blood Angels (about 1500pts).

There has always been alot of discussion of the "unique" units that have been given to the Angels and Wolves to make their codex fuller and boost sales, especially since the "basic" marine range has been complete for years (one of the reasons for Primaris).

However looking at the actual units - how many of them are actually in any way unique, how many would not actually be represented in some form in other Chapters both in terms of Lore and game stats.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are only in one chapter? Really?
No other Chapter has Sargeants leading squads in Terminator armour? Isn't that an Iron Hands thing too?
No other Chapter has more flexible teminator squads mixing close and ranged combat versons?
No other Chapter has mutations like Wolfen - isn't that a Black Dragons thing
No other Chapter rides beasts (much as I hate Wolves on Wolves) to battle?

Surely the basic unit templates for pretty much every Unique unit could and should be expanded to include these slight variations, with the relevant Chapter Keyword allowing access to a few other special rules /armoury should cover anything else?

What am I missing here. What would be lost by allowing those units be represeted in other Chapters?

It would also remove the problems of trying to cater for fans of these Chapters wanting everything plus their own "unique" units to make them Marines+ or having to have lesser versions of the same unit so that the three Chapters can retain a sense of specialness.

thanks

WhiteDog wrote:
Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb (plus they all have one extra attack). They are like elite bike.

WhiteDog wrote:
The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I own reasonable Dark Angels and Wolves armies (about 3000pts each) and some Blood Angels (about 1500pts).

There has always been alot of discussion of the "unique" units that have been given to the Angels and Wolves to make their codex fuller and boost sales, especially since the "basic" marine range has been complete for years (one of the reasons for Primaris).

However looking at the actual units - how many of them are actually in any way unique, how many would not actually be represented in some form in other Chapters both in terms of Lore and game stats.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are only in one chapter? Really?
No other Chapter has Sargeants leading squads in Terminator armour? Isn't that an Iron Hands thing too?
No other Chapter has more flexible teminator squads mixing close and ranged combat versons?
No other Chapter has mutations like Wolfen - isn't that a Black Dragons thing
No other Chapter rides beasts (much as I hate Wolves on Wolves) to battle?

Surely the basic unit templates for pretty much every Unique unit could and should be expanded to include these slight variations, with the relevant Chapter Keyword allowing access to a few other special rules /armoury should cover anything else?

What am I missing here. What would be lost by allowing those units be represeted in other Chapters?

It would also remove the problems of trying to cater for fans of these Chapters wanting everything plus their own "unique" units to make them Marines+ or having to have lesser versions of the same unit so that the three Chapters can retain a sense of specialness.

thanks

Perfect post.

WhiteDog wrote:
Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb (plus they all have one extra attack). They are like elite bike.

Why should elite bike be exclusive to DA? WHY SHOULD DA HAVE ELITE BIKE BUT WHITE SCARS SHOULD NOT????

WhiteDog wrote:
The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

Why should those vehicles be exclusive to 1 chapter???
Chapters don't even make their own wargear!!

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.

Lets assume for now, I was being facetious/sarcastic. How many models? Still just the one?

2 actually, but the khan on a bike is honestly reaching it a little, it's just a bike captain with a power spear.

IMHO for MOST chapters the supplements aren't worth buying for just the characters, but the additional goodies (relics, psykic powers etc) certainly are fun, and the fluff, if you're into that is more fluff then most get. that said if I was to judge a winner of the two supplements out right now, it'd be the Ultramarines by a mile. The White Scars is good, IF you wanna play a certain style of armor (rapid moving assault focus) but the Ultramarines have just such an amazingly flexable toolkit and hoenstly, I hope this is the trend, where the other supplements are great for an army that excells at ONE thing, but Ultramarines just have flexability

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.

Lets assume for now, I was being facetious/sarcastic. How many models? Still just the one?

2 actually, but the khan on a bike is honestly reaching it a little, it's just a bike captain with a power spear.

IMHO for MOST chapters the supplements aren't worth buying for just the characters, but the additional goodies (relics, psykic powers etc) certainly are fun, and the fluff, if you're into that is more fluff then most get. that said if I was to judge a winner of the two supplements out right now, it'd be the Ultramarines by a mile. The White Scars is good, IF you wanna play a certain style of armor (rapid moving assault focus) but the Ultramarines have just such an amazingly flexable toolkit and hoenstly, I hope this is the trend, where the other supplements are great for an army that excells at ONE thing, but Ultramarines just have flexability

UM are going to get about the same number of Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Fluff, etc.And a dozen or better datasheets. I don't play WS, I play UM, and I want them to have a roughly equal number of datasheets. I think I'd feel pretty ripped off if I paid the same $50-60 for 6 powers, 18 Stratagems, 6 Obj, 30 pages of fluff and 2 data sheets as someone else paid for 6 powers, 18 stratagems, 6 objectives, 30 pages of fluff, and 12 data sheets.

I'm not one of the people who thinks GW shouldn't charge for their product, but I do think their product should earn what they charge.

WhiteDog wrote:
You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. SNIP....The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Why should elite bike be exclusive to DA? WHY SHOULD DA HAVE ELITE BIKE BUT WHITE SCARS SHOULD NOT????

WhiteDog wrote:
The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

Why should those vehicles be exclusive to 1 chapter???
Chapters don't even make their own wargear!!

 Cruentus wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. SNIP....The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

You're referring to the fluff for the DA that changes every edition? The ones where GW created units out of wholecloth (ravenwing black knight, uparmored landspeeders, even their use of plasma), that fluff?

The DA, in the Angels of Death Codex (2nd ed), makes no mention of plasma, the uparmored speeders, or special deathwing knights. The only difference between their gear was the Ravenwing Landspeeder which had assault cannon and heavy bolter. Which eventually was retconned so everyone could upgrade to it. And their Terminators got to mix close combat weapons. That's about it. Otherwise, they look just like Ultramarines aside from the color of their armor and the robes. In Rogue Trader, the Dark Angels were the same as the Blood Angels, Blood Drinkers, Rainbow Warriors, and White Scars. Just a paint job.

So I'd be a little leery about those fluff justifications, since GW could turn around tomorrow and say that Guilliman has decided to share all those unique pieces of equipment across all of the Space Marine chapters - Baal Preds, plasma, etc.

I think that moving list building to a 30k type set up is probably the best way they could go about it. Then everyone starts out with basic units and strats, psychics, etc. Then each expansion book offers a couple of new units (the unique ones that we see now), or maybe just slightly altered unit profiles, and strats, psychics, etc. for the other chapters. Then they can expand the Marine lines with a unit or three unique to a particular chapter, but have all of the basic stuff codified and standardized across all armies.

The need for bespoke rules for everything and every weapon for every fluff army is one of the major contributors to the rules bloat and confusion we have now.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

 Mmmpi wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

That's not what they want though. They want to run DW knights, Sanguinary Guard, ect with Guilliman giving the full benefits.

captain collius wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No-one's saying "you don't get to have any specially sculpted Deathwing models" or suchlike, it's more of a "great, you can have some cool models, with rules that cover them, and I'll also be able to use them with a different Chapter, and I'll convert them to look more like the elite unit from my Chapter!"

Then those models likely wouldn't sell. It's an argument about wanting to have everything. Allies fixed a lot of wanting the things. In theory. Just use whatever book and write your own army fluff it's just as easy. Also if you combine the lists I'm putting dark angels on lions and blood angels on giant Honey Badgers.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:So, everybody could have their own elite Bike unit - or at least they could last dex. You could take Company Veterans on Bikes and equip them however you liked. Giving them all storm shields was ridiculously cheap. So yeah, DAs have the Ravenwing Knights, but they didn't get the Company Veterans on Bikes. So, we DA players did not get that uber-customizable unit to play with, which made sense thematically because veteran Bikers were becoming Black Knights.

Similarly, there were and have been since the 4th ed DA dex dropped Codex: Space Marines units that were not in Codex: Space Marines. They weren't always such a straight equivalency as with RWBKs and Biker Vets, but they were there. Regular SM players don't get the Dark Shroud? DA players didn't get the Ironclad Dread. Regular SM players don't get the Nephilim and Dark Talon? DA players don't get the Stormtalon and the Stormhawk. And so on. Codex: SM players have not been losing out by not having Codex: DA's toys, at least not more so than the other way around. And, quite frankly, since 4th ed Codex: Dark Angels has tended to be underpowered compared to Codex: Space Marines.

WhiteDog wrote:I can see the merit in a 30k type list building tho, but if this solution is realized by taking DA units away, like many are suggesting here, it is a piss poor solution.

 Mmmpi wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

That's not what they want though. They want to run DW knights, Sanguinary Guard, ect with Guilliman giving the full benefits.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So Deathwing Terminators:

You give the ability to mix weapons in all Marine Terminator Squads
Add an option for fearless
Add Plasma Cannon to options

Also add an option in the DA Armoury for "Watcher in the Dark"
Deathwing Knight Option in armoury

Done. Nothing lost, more options for others

The Elite Deathwing - what in the fluff makes them different from Elite (elite) terminators that other Chapters would have. Why would some Chapters not have Ancients in Teminator armour but called something else.

 Mmmpi wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

That's not what they want though. They want to run DW knights, Sanguinary Guard, ect with Guilliman giving the full benefits.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

Why should those vehicles be exclusive to 1 chapter???
Chapters don't even make their own wargear!!

WhiteDog wrote:
Like your pals you have very little knowledge on the topic you wish to talk about and it's a bit aggravating. You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. The first legion have specific tools because unlike other legions they were crusading beore the agreement between mars and terra and their armory is in the Rock. Wishing to protect their secrets, they also keep mars and all mechanicum at distance, which is why their techmarine don't pilot their flyers - if you will they are the exact opposite of the IH in this regard. This is why they have tons of plasma weapon (that are rare for other chapters because most STC are lost and only a few planets can make them), some anti-grav bikes, a lot of terminator armors (enough not only to completly stuff out their own first compagny, but also all of their successor chapters first compagny). The land speeder vengeance/darkshroud is a bigger landspeeder that only the DA have because they are the one who retreived the STC and those land speeder are mounted with relics that no one can build anyway ... The darkshroud is mounted with a statue from caliban that has been somewhat corrupted by the warp after the fall of the planet.

As for the "elite" bikes and the white scars, those two are totally different. The white scars are a fast attack army : they should have more bike variant than ravenwing, but truthfully there are not enough white scars players to push GW into creating more units to them. The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
So, everybody could have their own elite Bike unit - or at least they could last dex. You could take Company Veterans on Bikes and equip them however you liked. Giving them all storm shields was ridiculously cheap. So yeah, DAs have the Ravenwing Knights, but they didn't get the Company Veterans on Bikes. So, we DA players did not get that uber-customizable unit to play with, which made sense thematically because veteran Bikers were becoming Black Knights.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Regular SM players don't get the Dark Shroud? DA players didn't get the Ironclad Dread. Regular SM players don't get the Nephilim and Dark Talon? DA players don't get the Stormtalon and the Stormhawk. And so on.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

That's not what they want though. They want to run DW knights, Sanguinary Guard, ect with Guilliman giving the full benefits.

No, people know that certain units being exclusive for no good reason is stupid and always has been.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Giving DA units to everyone is taking them away now?

 Cruentus wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. SNIP....The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

You're referring to the fluff for the DA that changes every edition? The ones where GW created units out of wholecloth (ravenwing black knight, uparmored landspeeders, even their use of plasma), that fluff?

The DA, in the Angels of Death Codex (2nd ed), makes no mention of plasma, the uparmored speeders, or special deathwing knights. The only difference between their gear was the Ravenwing Landspeeder which had assault cannon and heavy bolter. Which eventually was retconned so everyone could upgrade to it. And their Terminators got to mix close combat weapons. That's about it. Otherwise, they look just like Ultramarines aside from the color of their armor and the robes. In Rogue Trader, the Dark Angels were the same as the Blood Angels, Blood Drinkers, Rainbow Warriors, and White Scars. Just a paint job.

So I'd be a little leery about those fluff justifications, since GW could turn around tomorrow and say that Guilliman has decided to share all those unique pieces of equipment across all of the Space Marine chapters - Baal Preds, plasma, etc.

I think that moving list building to a 30k type set up is probably the best way they could go about it. Then everyone starts out with basic units and strats, psychics, etc. Then each expansion book offers a couple of new units (the unique ones that we see now), or maybe just slightly altered unit profiles, and strats, psychics, etc. for the other chapters. Then they can expand the Marine lines with a unit or three unique to a particular chapter, but have all of the basic stuff codified and standardized across all armies.

The need for bespoke rules for everything and every weapon for every fluff army is one of the major contributors to the rules bloat and confusion we have now.

 captain collius wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. SNIP....The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

You're referring to the fluff for the DA that changes every edition? The ones where GW created units out of wholecloth (ravenwing black knight, uparmored landspeeders, even their use of plasma), that fluff?

The DA, in the Angels of Death Codex (2nd ed), makes no mention of plasma, the uparmored speeders, or special deathwing knights. The only difference between their gear was the Ravenwing Landspeeder which had assault cannon and heavy bolter. Which eventually was retconned so everyone could upgrade to it. And their Terminators got to mix close combat weapons. That's about it. Otherwise, they look just like Ultramarines aside from the color of their armor and the robes. In Rogue Trader, the Dark Angels were the same as the Blood Angels, Blood Drinkers, Rainbow Warriors, and White Scars. Just a paint job.

So I'd be a little leery about those fluff justifications, since GW could turn around tomorrow and say that Guilliman has decided to share all those unique pieces of equipment across all of the Space Marine chapters - Baal Preds, plasma, etc.

I think that moving list building to a 30k type set up is probably the best way they could go about it. Then everyone starts out with basic units and strats, psychics, etc. Then each expansion book offers a couple of new units (the unique ones that we see now), or maybe just slightly altered unit profiles, and strats, psychics, etc. for the other chapters. Then they can expand the Marine lines with a unit or three unique to a particular chapter, but have all of the basic stuff codified and standardized across all armies.

The need for bespoke rules for everything and every weapon for every fluff army is one of the major contributors to the rules bloat and confusion we have now. [/qut]

One I would love to see the Dark Angels give guilliman the finger and go about doing what they do.

Twoi love the way my army is setup and I don't need Libby dreads or sanguinary guard, or thunder wolf cav. The real problem is if you created 9 codexes for the first founders (and you would then produce nine spiky codexes) they would hopefully hit the balance goal where in we'd like to be playable but compelling to draw people into new armies.

In this scenario you would have 5 elite units to come up with. That's 5 kits that need to pay for themselves. Is there enough interest? Is there enough new ideas? I'd argue if they could they would have by now. Also if you made a combined Marines book that covers all the factions all the kits to sell them the book would be enormous and unwieldy.

Do the deserve a book. Probably. Is it financially viable.... I don't think so.

And we have discussed already in this thread ways of keeping all the "unique" units that mostly involve adding a line or two to unit templates.....

Remember none of these super special units existed that long ago - I still contend that one of the reasons for them AND Primaris was that the base marine range was pretty much complete.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Like your pals you have very little knowledge on the topic you wish to talk about and it's a bit aggravating. You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. The first legion have specific tools because unlike other legions they were crusading beore the agreement between mars and terra and their armory is in the Rock. Wishing to protect their secrets, they also keep mars and all mechanicum at distance, which is why their techmarine don't pilot their flyers - if you will they are the exact opposite of the IH in this regard. This is why they have tons of plasma weapon (that are rare for other chapters because most STC are lost and only a few planets can make them), some anti-grav bikes, a lot of terminator armors (enough not only to completly stuff out their own first compagny, but also all of their successor chapters first compagny). The land speeder vengeance/darkshroud is a bigger landspeeder that only the DA have because they are the one who retreived the STC and those land speeder are mounted with relics that no one can build anyway ... The darkshroud is mounted with a statue from caliban that has been somewhat corrupted by the warp after the fall of the planet.

As for the "elite" bikes and the white scars, those two are totally different. The white scars are a fast attack army : they should have more bike variant than ravenwing, but truthfully there are not enough white scars players to push GW into creating more units to them. The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

Blah blah blah.
That's just bad ad hoc fluff to justify the unique units. Marines aren't running tank factories White Dog, it's not their role, they get standardized gear from the mechanicum. And a ten years head start on 10000 years? As a justification for DA having all the plasma? It's just silly dude. Random Astra Militarum guys get plasma, get real.
I love how to catch people, your best weapon is… plasma, LOLOLOL.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
So, everybody could have their own elite Bike unit - or at least they could last dex. You could take Company Veterans on Bikes and equip them however you liked. Giving them all storm shields was ridiculously cheap. So yeah, DAs have the Ravenwing Knights, but they didn't get the Company Veterans on Bikes. So, we DA players did not get that uber-customizable unit to play with, which made sense thematically because veteran Bikers were becoming Black Knights.

Great, let's get back to having Company Veterans on Bikes and if you want to play fluffy DA you give them all plasma weapons and you use the stratagems from the supplement that represent how they are adept at catching fallen.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Regular SM players don't get the Dark Shroud? DA players didn't get the Ironclad Dread. Regular SM players don't get the Nephilim and Dark Talon? DA players don't get the Stormtalon and the Stormhawk. And so on.

Let's have everyone have both, and remove the annoying inconsistencies from having different version of the exact same things at the same time!

 captain collius wrote:
Mr. Morden and Sgt. Smudge the problem is marine soup is considered to be fairly annoying as Marines have no weaknesses.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Like your pals you have very little knowledge on the topic you wish to talk about and it's a bit aggravating. You should, maybe, read some DA fluff to understand why they have what they have. The first legion have specific tools because unlike other legions they were crusading beore the agreement between mars and terra and their armory is in the Rock. Wishing to protect their secrets, they also keep mars and all mechanicum at distance, which is why their techmarine don't pilot their flyers - if you will they are the exact opposite of the IH in this regard. This is why they have tons of plasma weapon (that are rare for other chapters because most STC are lost and only a few planets can make them), some anti-grav bikes, a lot of terminator armors (enough not only to completly stuff out their own first compagny, but also all of their successor chapters first compagny). The land speeder vengeance/darkshroud is a bigger landspeeder that only the DA have because they are the one who retreived the STC and those land speeder are mounted with relics that no one can build anyway ... The darkshroud is mounted with a statue from caliban that has been somewhat corrupted by the warp after the fall of the planet.

As for the "elite" bikes and the white scars, those two are totally different. The white scars are a fast attack army : they should have more bike variant than ravenwing, but truthfully there are not enough white scars players to push GW into creating more units to them. The ravenwing black knight on the other side are bikes that have a specific role (hunting fallen) and are equiped in order to accomplish this task with ... wait for it ... plasma weapons because the DA have more plasma than anyone else. Maybe you're starting to get the trend.

Blah blah blah.
That's just bad ad hoc fluff to justify the unique units. Marines aren't running tank factories White Dog, it's not their role, they get standardized gear from the mechanicum. !

captain collius wrote:Mr. Morden and Sgt. Smudge the problem is marine soup is considered to be fairly annoying as Marines have no weaknesses.

As for Dark Angels on lions there is absolutely zero justification for it in world. Not that it would stop me.

Also the unit that would sell would be base marine units as everyone using their homebrew would use the most broken units from each.

WhiteDog wrote:If you want to consolidate everything in one codex you will eventually make some units disappear that's called normal logic.
Let's say GW give the dark talon and the nephilim to all space marine : why would they keep the dark talon and the nephilim, AND the storm talon and the storm hawk ? Those units have the same exact tactical role and are thought as substitutes... It's the same for the storm hawk and the stormwolf.

WhiteDog wrote:
They are not the same units, they have the same role and are substitutes. Knights and Wraith Knights also have the same role and the lnly thing that prevent us from switching one from the other is that they come from two different factions. It is the same for those flyers.