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But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '

Let's take a more interesting example, the famed Bestial marines entry.
They would still be very unique, by fluff and models! The Death Comparny would still be very different from the Wulfen and from the Black Dragons! Because both are genuinely different and flavorful. They would then be made different rulewise because of different CT, and in the case of wulfen and DC, by the extra stratagems and other stuff from the supplement.
As for the Deathwatch Knights, if they are just "terminator but more elite", then they aren't very characterful in the first place. If they are more than this, explain how, I'm sure it would still set them apart.

I like my BA having Death Company and I suppose Sang Guard. Love the Libby Dread. Space Wolves are a little OTT for me, but it's cool they got their own stuff. I like a lot of the DA special stuff. Haven't read the full 7 pages of what's probably whinging over semantics and arguing with people who're talking about completely different things, so forgive me if this has been suggested:
Make the unique units for each chapter part of their Chapter Tactics. Upgrade x number of units from the main Codex with chapter specific rules. That way anyone making a successor chapter can be a bit different than just the paintjob and someone coming up with a whole new homebrew fluff for their force can play with something thematic to them, whilst the min/maxers can field the most broke combo they can come up with.

I'm sure Blood Angels can't be the only chapter in the Imperium who flipped over the pistol requisitions form and saw that Mars makes meltas in pistol form. If Khorne Berzerkers can be aware enough to theoretically take 2 plasma pistols in a squad, you'd think some other guys might as well. There must be plenty of ways to justify Death Company rules across other chapters as well. Wolf Rage, Charged Bionics, Imperial Bravado, whatever. It'd be a nice easy excuse to make new models, or sell more kits for kitbashing purposes too, but unless Primaris get some actual options that's kinda moot.

I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

This debate reminds me of discussion about class vs point based character building in RPGs. Some people prefer things to come in neat pre-chosen packages, whilst others want a smorgasbord of options from which they can freely mix and match.

 Crimson wrote:
I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

This debate reminds me of discussion about class vs point based character building in RPGs. Some people prefer things to come in neat pre-chosen packages, whilst others want a smorgasbord of options from which they can freely mix and match.

I feel like the Chaos Knights boons and flaws table mightv be a good way to go about this kind of customisation. Wouldn't be a bad thing to see as a White Dwarf article or Chapter Approved extra. Of course, only for open or narrative play.

 Crimson wrote:
I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

This debate reminds me of discussion about class vs point based character building in RPGs. Some people prefer things to come in neat pre-chosen packages, whilst others want a smorgasbord of options from which they can freely mix and match.

as a GM I find class based to be infinatly easier to manage to write a balanced adventure around

 Crimson wrote:
I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

In the Cursed Founding Chapter Approved rules, they literally did - they were called Abominations.

 Crimson wrote:
I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

This debate reminds me of discussion about class vs point based character building in RPGs. Some people prefer things to come in neat pre-chosen packages, whilst others want a smorgasbord of options from which they can freely mix and match.

That's exactly it!
Except for one meaningful difference. RPG have a number of classes. But they don't have things like “the Bard class, the Cleric class, the Fighter-and-Barbarian-and-Monk-and-Sorcerer-and… class” like we have with the Space Marine codex who is supposed to represent thousands of extremely different chapters.
That's basically why the current system is flawed. At the very least, we should have “class” marine codex, with all the “fighter” chapters in one book and all the “shooter” chapters in the other book and you can decide to build your own fighter chapter or your own “shooter” chapter. Here it's “Your own chapter” or “the Dark Angel, or a descendant that is so close to them it might as well be the very same chapter”…

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I could easily see my Cursed Founding chapter having Wulfen style mutated psycho marines.

This debate reminds me of discussion about class vs point based character building in RPGs. Some people prefer things to come in neat pre-chosen packages, whilst others want a smorgasbord of options from which they can freely mix and match.

as a GM I find class based to be infinatly easier to manage to write a balanced adventure around

By extension, do you think a series of books with a smaller, defined list of units - rather than a giant mass of units from 4 books - might be easier to balance?

Assuming, of course, that the studio writing the rules was good at such things - and even if they weren't, would you think it should be easier for them that way?

You guys are just describing the New SM codex and its supplements.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
You guys are just describing the New SM codex and its supplements.

I would say that's the joke...if it was funny and not true.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
You guys are just describing the New SM codex and its supplements.

How is that in any way like the OP?

 BroodSpawn wrote:
But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '

Dark Angel special rules:
All models in terminator armor gain the DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE keywords

Models in DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD may exchange its storm bolter and power fist for two lightning claws or Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Alternatively, the entire unit may exchange their weapons for Mace of Absolution and Storm Shield and gain the DEATHWING KNIGHT keyword. Terminator sergeants in DEATHWING KNIGHT units are equipped with Flail of the Unforgiven and Stormshield.


done.

redboi wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '

Dark Angel special rules:
All models in terminator armor gain the DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE keywords

Models in DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD may exchange its storm bolter and power fist for two lightning claws or Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Alternatively, the entire unit may exchange their weapons for Mace of Absolution and Storm Shield and gain the DEATHWING KNIGHT keyword. Terminator sergeants in DEATHWING KNIGHT units are equipped with Flail of the Unforgiven and Stormshield.

done.

Seems legit - what is lost?

On a purely technical level with no context, not much. You get what you want, I get what I want. I assume however that you've restricted that option to only Dark Angels armies, so why would you have it in a generic SM list since everyone outside of the DA wouldn't be able to use it. But considering that's not explicitly stated I have to assume that now the Space Wolves have access to 'Deathwing Knights'.

Or have you decided that gaining the Deathwing keywords should be accessible to non-DA armies. And if that's the case you have, again, lost in the flavour and theme of the units and armies it's related to. Ultramarines should not have Deathwing Knights just because you want to condense options into a single datasheet that players will then decide has only one way of being built.

Or are you going to ignore the flavour problem again, which you consistently do because it doesn't fit in your narrative that evre Marine unit should be available to every Marine army, ignoring the 30yrs+ of stories and theme that has been developed

he doesn't care. if GW ditches the varient marine armies that means GW will magicly give other "more worthy" armies new stuff. nevermind that the example of Primaris Marines suggests this wouldn't be the case. AT ALL

 Mr Morden wrote:

redboi wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '

Dark Angel special rules:
All models in terminator armor gain the DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE keywords

Models in DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD may exchange its storm bolter and power fist for two lightning claws or Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Alternatively, the entire unit may exchange their weapons for Mace of Absolution and Storm Shield and gain the DEATHWING KNIGHT keyword. Terminator sergeants in DEATHWING KNIGHT units are equipped with Flail of the Unforgiven and Stormshield.

done.

Seems legit - what is lost?

The feeling that it is a different unit that is organised differently by the Chapter. It just feels like they picked up a different weapon that day, which isn't reflective of the lore.

To some people that won't matter, to others it matters a lot.

But Deathwing aren't organised differently than equivalent units in most other Chapters.

[Indomitus-armoured] Deathwing being able to mix weapons while nobody else can is an arbitrary gameplay mechanic, and nothing to do with any lore.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
But Deathwing aren't organised differently than equivalent units in most other Chapters.

[Indomitus-armoured] Deathwing being able to mix weapons while nobody else can is an arbitrary gameplay mechanic, and nothing to do with any lore.

I'm talking about Deathwing Knights. They are entirely different marines.

In that they have maces instead of hammers, sure. But other than that they're currently rules-wise just the same as other Terminator units.

Even under their previous rules when they were more different, that basically translated into +1WS and them being the only Terminators who could form a shieldwall for some reason (as though these guys couldn't do the exact same thing).

 Lord Damocles wrote:
In that they have maces instead of hammers, sure. But other than that they're currently rules-wise just the same as other Terminator units.

Even under their previous rules when they were more different, that basically translated into +1WS and them being the only Terminators who could form a shieldwall for some reason (as though these guys couldn't do the exact same thing).

No, I mean they are different guys in the chapter, in the lore. Combining the Datasheets diminishes the feeling of uniqueness - that they are this other special unit within the Deathwing.

As I say, that won't bother everyone but it's important to some people.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
[Indomitus-armoured] Deathwing being able to mix weapons while nobody else can is an arbitrary gameplay mechanic, and nothing to do with any lore.

I'm fairly sure that the Terminator squads in the more Codex-adherent Chapters being split into Assault and Tactical units is a thing in the lore. The Unforgiven are the primary exception, with the Wolf Guard being a lesser one (given that the Space Wolves don't actually have a 1st Company). I would need to go back through some books to get references, though.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
[Indomitus-armoured] Deathwing being able to mix weapons while nobody else can is an arbitrary gameplay mechanic, and nothing to do with any lore.

I'm fairly sure that the Terminator squads in the more Codex-adherent Chapters being split into Assault and Tactical units is a thing in the lore. The Unforgiven are the primary exception, with the Wolf Guard being a lesser one (given that the Space Wolves don't actually have a 1st Company). I would need to go back through some books to get references, though.

I think it's muddier than that. If you go back to the early days, Terminators are often mixed teams with different specialists. Look at Space Hulk etc.

I dark Angels and I would be in favour of consolidation IF gw stops to expand the miniatures cross-chapter without restraint.

My issue isn't the fact that other Chapters may have "my" units (honestly, why White Scars shouldn't have a Land Speeder Lieutenants?), but instead the availability of all units where before those chapters didn't have many specific choices.
DA for example didn't have Veterans: their veterans where always in Terminator. It was a neat and characterful oddity. Same with Bike Scout, etcetera.

I hate the fact that DA now have veterans, or bike scouts, or additional configurations of Land Speeder: because restrictions foster creativity.

So, as long as any extra choice will require a sacrifice, I would agree with a more consistent consolidation.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I dark Angels and I would be in favour of consolidation IF gw stops to expand the miniatures cross-chapter without restraint.

My issue isn't the fact that other Chapters may have "my" units (honestly, why White Scars shouldn't have a Land Speeder Lieutenants?), but instead the availability of all units where before those chapters didn't have many specific choices.
DA for example didn't have Veterans: their veterans where always in Terminator. It was a neat and characterful oddity. Same with Bike Scout, etcetera.

I hate the fact that DA now have veterans, or bike scouts, or additional configurations of Land Speeder: because restrictions foster creativity.

So, as long as any extra choice will require a sacrifice, I would agree with a more consistent consolidation.

Personally i would like DA to be kept separate, however the trend has been taking away their uniqueness lately, especially with the primaris line homogenizing the chapters and them gaining more and more units from codex astartes. Honestly with the current codex there is no reason DA couldn't be consolidated into a few extra pages of rules by a savvy rules writer.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I dark Angels and I would be in favour of consolidation IF gw stops to expand the miniatures cross-chapter without restraint.

My issue isn't the fact that other Chapters may have "my" units (honestly, why White Scars shouldn't have a Land Speeder Lieutenants?), but instead the availability of all units where before those chapters didn't have many specific choices.
DA for example didn't have Veterans: their veterans where always in Terminator. It was a neat and characterful oddity. Same with Bike Scout, etcetera.

I hate the fact that DA now have veterans, or bike scouts, or additional configurations of Land Speeder: because restrictions foster creativity.
.

DA vets should absolutely exist. It doesn't mean they come from the Veteran 1st company (in the DA case, the Deathwing), they represent parts of the Command Squad from each Company that also form the Champion and standard bearer.

 Stux wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
[Indomitus-armoured] Deathwing being able to mix weapons while nobody else can is an arbitrary gameplay mechanic, and nothing to do with any lore.

I'm fairly sure that the Terminator squads in the more Codex-adherent Chapters being split into Assault and Tactical units is a thing in the lore. The Unforgiven are the primary exception, with the Wolf Guard being a lesser one (given that the Space Wolves don't actually have a 1st Company). I would need to go back through some books to get references, though.

I think it's muddier than that. If you go back to the early days, Terminators are often mixed teams with different specialists. Look at Space Hulk etc.

In 2nd edition Ultramarine/Codex Terminator Squads could mix weapons, too.

 Mr Morden wrote:

redboi wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
But to get to that level of choice you have to water down and make uniform all forms of chapter unique unit so they're generic enough for everyone. There would be no Deathwing Knights as they'd be just a different colour of a melee terminator unit used by everyone else. At that point you're still removing flavour even if you say 'but they still exist they're now just a variant of this basic thing now instead of being uniquely interesting '

Dark Angel special rules:
All models in terminator armor gain the DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE keywords

Models in DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD may exchange its storm bolter and power fist for two lightning claws or Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Alternatively, the entire unit may exchange their weapons for Mace of Absolution and Storm Shield and gain the DEATHWING KNIGHT keyword. Terminator sergeants in DEATHWING KNIGHT units are equipped with Flail of the Unforgiven and Stormshield.

done.

Seems legit - what is lost?

Combining datasheets achieves nothing. The Dark Angels Codex has one datasheet for Deathwing Terminator Squad and one datasheet for Deathwing Knights Squad. It doesn't also have a Terminator Squad datasheet and an Assault Terminator Squad datasheet so there is no efficiency but plenty more wordage in the sheet. The Dark Angels book is quite manageable in terms of units.

What you lose is a distinction between Dark Angels and other Chapters. Choosing to collect, paint and play a Dark Angels force means you gain access to some unique things (Deathwing, Ravenwing) and lose access to others. Its part of the enjoyment - the point of a distinct army. If you really want to play with Ravenwing Black Knights then go ahead and play with Ravenwing Black Knights in a Dark Angels detachment or army. Nobody is stopping you, anymore that they are stopping you playing with Tau Commanders or Ork Lootas. It just takes a certain amount of commitment.

But why do 4 Chapters get detailed units and differences, while 996 don't?

Whereas if you had a generic Space Marine codex and the ability to pick bonuses and penalties (or extra units and restrictions) from the whole list, you could represent a lot more chapters.

I do understand it'd make balancing harder, but honestly, given the fact that balance is apparently an 82nd concern for GW instead of #1 or #2 or something like that, they might as well let you have lots of customization.

The reasons why they devoted time to those 4 and not the 996+ is because that's what the writers at various times decided to work on. You're complaining that people in the past put extra work in to differentiate an army of MArines from another army of Marines and now you want them to ignore and retroactively cancel out all that work just so you can make your super-special-awesome chapter that has 'Not-Deathwing' backed up by 'Not-Wulfen'.

How is that even a question?