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Barring an update / eratte to the BRB, rapid fire doesnt round. You have to measure the half inch.

Comprehensive list of all points changes anywhere?

IronVaught wrote:
Comprehensive list of all points changes anywhere?

We've discussed it multiple times already. Go buy the codex.

Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.

Skullhammer wrote:
Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

Skullhammer wrote:
Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.

Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly

If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.

It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.

You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.

That's not how it works I don't think. I still dont have the codex yet nor the supplement, BUT as far as my research said they would only be Successors in name only rather than by rules, which is the factor here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not how it works I don't think. I still dont have the codex yet nor the supplement, BUT as far as my research said they would only be Successors in name only rather than by rules, which is the factor here.

Per the supplements, a successor chapter can link itself to a first founding chapter and get access to their super-doctrine and their strategems. They have to pay additional CP to access the chapter specific relics.

Its the trade off. First founders get the characters and easier access to relics. Successors get flexibility in their CTs.

So, anyone seen the wording of the White Scars Encircle stratagem? It says White Scars UNIT... which means that RAW you can outflank a Leviathan Dreadnought or a Spartan. I suppose that this is going to be FAQ'ed to be just like the Space Wolves version that only allows infantry to use this stratagem though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not how it works I don't think.

You think wrong. Custom chapters can benefit from most of the supplement rules. It is very clearly explained in the supplement.

yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance

That's almost broken to me not gonna lie. My mind is kinda racing around doing....I actually don't even know now.

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that.

Hopefully. I still think that those chapters that have a decent special character chapter master have a big advantage, and even more so in a case of Calgar. There is so much good stratagems now and you can no longer reasonably use an ally CP battery, so the CP are really valuable. I would rather buy my chapter master with points than CP. Compared to a successor Ultras start with four CP more, and it gets even more lopsided if you compare them to a non-ultra successor chapter which do not even get Ultra CP regeneration shenanigans.

I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?

Moebius5 wrote:
I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?

Unfortunately yes.

 Crimson wrote:

Moebius5 wrote:
I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?

Unfortunately yes.

I'm quite happy with that to be honest, you now finally get a reward for staying pure without removing a viable possibility for souping.

Pandabeer wrote:

I'm quite happy with that to be honest, you now finally get a reward for staying pure without removing a viable possibility for souping.

I think it pretty much removed the viable possibility of the soup, but we'll see.

I think souping will be possiable and viable but it'll massivly impact your build souping with marines isn't going to be a matter of "take the loyal 32 and my army is suddenly better for no cost"

So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.

Inceptors actually didn't get an extra attack, only Aggressors go that, and that was probably because someone finally counted how many power fists they have. But yes, Inceptors indeed seem better. They might survive for a while now. They can drop on objectives, clear and hold them. So basically do what Reivers do, except most likely quite a bit better.

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.

Inceptors actually didn't get an extra attack, only Aggressors go that, and that was probably because someone finally counted how many power fists they have. But yes, Inceptors indeed seem better. They might survive for a while now. They can drop on objectives, clear and hold them. So basically do what Reivers do, except most likely quite a bit better.

Awww crap, I assumed. I really hope the Honoured Sergeant Stratagem is able to be taken on multiple squads, my Aggressor Sergeants need some D2 weapons.

That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance

The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.

Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly

If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.

It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.

It's only legal until the time it takes them to FAQ that. Successor chapters of second founding are going to have the same tactics as their founding. Clearly the intent of the rule IMO.

The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.

maybe on the other hand being able to combine the raven guard cover at over 12 inches ability with some of the ultramarines strats. just for example, could be REALLY good

 Xenomancers wrote:
That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.

I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.

Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap

-

Yeah, now they are more survivable to actually get the plasma shots off in the first place.

Gravis can do a lot of things now it couldn't before. Yes, they give up gangbusters now, but I'll risk it.

Think it's worth pretty much always sticking a drop pod in? Figure for 210 (? 200ish) points you can get a pod with 4 grav devs that they will need to screen against from turn 1. It's in that zone that allllmost feels cheap enough to be worth it just for flexibility and affecting your opponent's turn 1 deployment alone, but would be an expensive use if they get screened out until late game.

And if you think the base pod is worth it, think it's worth another 100-150pts to fill it or run it cheaper?

Also, since talking plasma inceptors above, while I'd rather shoot with the grav, those devs are going to die almost 3x as fast as inceptors after landing...

 Xenomancers wrote:
That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance

The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.

Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly

If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.

It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.

It's only legal until the time it takes them to FAQ that. Successor chapters of second founding are going to have the same tactics as their founding. Clearly the intent of the rule IMO.

Yeah I'm not gonna risk playing around with ideas until it's confirmed that's how it works. I'll be sticking with the pure White Scars Tactic on my Minotaurs and Raven Guard on my Raptors.

Unless it's all good. In which case I'll go Stealthy + Long Range Marlsmen on my Raptors, and then POTENTIALLY Hungry For Battle + Whirlwind of Rage on my Minotaurs/Carcharodons.

I got the same impression they did, successors pick their custom tactics and then pick a first founding to copy their super doctrine. I just wasn't near as impressed with the custom tactics as I expected. Basically I'm gonna tinker around with +3" range stuff, but more likely taking a fixed chapter.

...Of course, I'm still just running off preview vids, my codex is still in the mail for a week.