+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Xiber**

protomane0 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.

So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks

I am with you in this one, because if we agree that wording stops vanguards to take double pistols, they also should not be able to take pair of lightning claws which is absolutely ridiculous!

**Xirax**

Anyone found any gems while play testing the newly pimped marines? What feels good on a paper doesn't neccesarily perform. I fear that all around S4 weaponry will be the most lack lustering fact..

**X078**

Marines will be marines, they now hit harder but die about as easy. I predict that when all the currently '”competitive” and mostly undercosted units such as FW dreads like leviathans, ww scorpius, Thunderfire cannons (ffs new model) etc has had its day in the sun together with oldmarines and standard primaris, the army will move to vanguard units for competitive, to get people to buy in to that. Well atleast thats my view

**godardc**

Xiber wrote:
protomane0 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.

So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks

I am with you in this one, because if we agree that wording stops vanguards to take double pistols, they also should not be able to take pair of lightning claws which is absolutely ridiculous!

Are dual pistol vv any good now ?

**urzaplanewalker**

I have a tourney on Saturday to practice for a team tourney next month. Here is what I'm thinking of taking:

Brigade (White scars):
Captain in Gravis (will be made chapter master with Armor indom)(Warlord)
Kor'sarro Khan
Prim Chaplain (might get pimp cane relic or +1 adv/charge relic)
Prim Librarian (might get +1 stormspeaking relic)
Prim Lieuten (Might get white scar scimitar relic or +1 adv/charge relic)

Troops
2xIntercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & thunder hammer
3xIntercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & power sword
1x6 man Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & thunder hammer

Elites:
Prim ancient (will take +1 str banner)
Redemptor dread with dakka and rocket pod
Reiver squad (probably engineers)

Fast Attack:
3xDakka Inceptors

Heavy supp:
2xElims with sergeant improved gun
Thunderfire Cannon

That's 2k points on the nose. What do you guys think?

**Mandragola**

That doesn’t look like much anti-tank to me. I think you could have trouble against something like knights. Vast dakka will massacre hordes though.

**urzaplanewalker**

Mandragola wrote:
That doesn’t look like much anti-tank to me. I think you could have trouble against something like knights. Vast dakka will massacre hordes though.

I did worry a bit about anti-tank, but math hammering it out, I can kill a knight in shooting around 80% of the time if I shoot my whole army at it (even if it has a 4++). Also, if the knights get in charge range of me, I can easily kill multiple knights in melee (Especially on turn 3).

**Xirax**

My take on brigade is:

Spoiler:

I agree we both lack anti-tank which will hurt and one redemptor is the only antitank weaponry target, so hide it well!

**grouchoben**

When can you ever shoot your entire army at one target, urza?

**urzaplanewalker**

grouchoben wrote:
When can you ever shoot your entire army at one target, urza?

When it's a giant model that I can easily see through 2nd story windows that normally deploys right on the deployment line as close as possible to try and get into melee with me asap and all my guns can advance and fire at 24"/18"(these have a 12" movement). I'm pretty sure I can put my whole army in range T1 if necessary or hide entirely and do an alpha T2 by walking through walls.

**Mandragola**

Hmm. The 2k knight army I’m thinking of taking to a tournament soon has a Castigator, two crusaders, a warden, the rusty 17 and 85 spare assassin points. It has no particular reason to want to advance towards your stuff, though I imagine I’d run out of skitarii pretty soon.

**Xirax**

Maybe we should start making a list for changed and workable unit/combo's which have truly seen combat experience. If you got a 'wow' or 'this feels potent' effects on any units or combo's please share. What we really need in the tactics thread the 'good' tactics we have tested and want to share. It's almost a week since the codex came out we must have some real comments. My comments hopefully comes in a day or two

**ERJAK**

X078 wrote:
Marines will be marines, they now hit harder but die about as easy. I predict that when all the currently '”competitive” and mostly undercosted units such as FW dreads like leviathans, ww scorpius, Thunderfire cannons (ffs new model) etc has had its day in the sun together with oldmarines and standard primaris, the army will move to vanguard units for competitive, to get people to buy in to that. Well atleast thats my view

People will play whatever's the best and while vanguard certainly aren't bad, I wouldn't say they're 'the best' either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
grouchoben wrote:
When can you ever shoot your entire army at one target, urza?

When it's a giant model that I can easily see through 2nd story windows that normally deploys right on the deployment line as close as possible to try and get into melee with me asap and all my guns can advance and fire at 24"/18"(these have a 12" movement). I'm pretty sure I can put my whole army in range T1 if necessary or hide entirely and do an alpha T2 by walking through walls.

Your biggest weakness is gonna be going second because of how limited your defenses are. Even with decent LoS and cover you'll be losing a pretty decent chunk of models.

**Roboute**

I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

**schadenfreude**

Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.

From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.

This is a sign of a well written codex.

**Roboute**

schadenfreude wrote:
Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.

From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.

This is a sign of a well written codex.

Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.

**Asherian Command**

Roboute wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.

From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.

This is a sign of a well written codex.

Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.

I am not. Space Marines needed the buff, and chaos also gets alot of angels of death rules, including bolter discipline and charge + 1 attack. So Raptors and many other close combat units get a massive buff.

Spoiler:

Is the list I am planning on playing with soon, seems fun!

The groups that still need a buff are Grey Knights and Regular Chaos. Deathguard are still very competitive.

**JNAProductions**

Roboute wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
Roboute wrote:
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).

From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.

From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.

This is a sign of a well written codex.

Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.

Thanks. I'm not upset about the buffs SM got-I'm more upset about the CONTENT. CSM got maybe three things-cool things, sure, but not many.

Space Marines got SO DAMN MUCH.

**Asherian Command**

I mean I am still waiting for my wolves to get something.... Phobos really doesn't fit their strategies, neither does it for black templars...

**Crimson**

Asherian Command wrote:
I mean I am still waiting for my wolves to get something.... Phobos really doesn't fit their strategies,

Considering that Wolves were the only chapter who routinely fielded non-neophyte scout squads, and the phobos are just that except with better gear, I think it fits them absolutely perfectly.

neither does it for black templars...

Reivers fit the Templars well, but yeah, the rest of the phobos units really do not.

**Asherian Command**

Crimson wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
I mean I am still waiting for my wolves to get something.... Phobos really doesn't fit their strategies,

Considering that Wolves were the only chapter who routinely fielded non-neophyte scout squads, and the phobos are just that except with better gear, I think it fits them absolutely perfectly.

neither does it for black templars...

Reivers fit the Templars well, but yeah, the rest of the phobos units really do not.

Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.

**Crimson**

Asherian Command wrote:

Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.

Eh. Reivers are your Primaris Blood Claws and Intercessors are your Grey Hunters. They just need to give the Wolves access to the Veteran Intercessor stratagem and the new sergeant weapons so they can make their Intercesors badass in melee.

**Asherian Command**

Crimson wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.

Eh. Reivers are your Primaris Blood Claws and Intercessors are your Grey Hunters. They just need to give the Wolves access to the Veteran Intercessor stratagem and the new sergeant weapons so they can make their Intercesors badass in melee.

Yet they don't have that in the codex, space wolves would not follow the codex, and would use reivers (with chainswords) as a troop choice and infilitrators / vanguard units would be the elites in their army.

Instead its just a blanket (this is what they are cause they are space marines)

**Eihnlazer**

Check my White scars list in the army list forum for my take on them. Im pretty sure its a top 10 army atm.

Instant pressure from turn 1, no single optimal targets, board saturation, not worried about deep strikers, amazing dakka.

It wont take out 2 knights a turn, but it should kill at least 1 and some screening units.

**DISCO LEMONADE**

I give it 3 months before the Invictor gets nerf-hammered

**BrianDavion**

DISCO LEMONADE wrote:
I give it 3 months before the Invictor gets nerf-hammered

nah folks'll just learn how to counter it.

**Sterling191**

It’s a first strike weapon. At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business

**Azuza001**

Yeah t6 is an easy t to counter. Everything short of a las gun wounds it on 5's at least, it has no invunerable save, and it starts so close up that sure it may kill something t1 but anything that can fight decently (not even tooled for it just good enough) can kill it in cc easily.

Eamples :

Tau : boroadsides or riptides can deal with it without a second thought.
Orks : um... everything but gretchen should be able to kill it in cc.
Chaos : autocannons, deamons, deamon princes, even a large rubric blob would make it dead.
Imperium: waaaay to many things to count.... assault cannons, autocannons, sternguard vets, vanguard vets, guard with grenade launchers, mutlilasers......
Eldar: yeah, just too many as well.... reapers will love these guys.... avengers + doom will ruin them..... yeah.....

They are a new toy that will sell but i don't see them competitive.

Ro

What do you think about stormtalons now? with ironhands or ultras doctrine??

**tksolway**

schadenfreude wrote:

GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.

The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.

It's never been optimal to get your PAGKs into CC. With only 1-2 attacks, you'll end up easily overwhelmed by numbers, since you are always outnumbered to begin with. The key to playing GK is maximizing your Stormbolters, and ensuring you get get the charge at the right time. Giving up a turn of shooting because you charged at the wrong time/place, can tip the balance of the game.

From this explanation you can see why the GK has had so much trouble in the current meta as well. SBs are not anywhere near as powerful as they were in previous editions, not having any AP is a problem, especially when most of your opponents are hitting you with -1 and -2 weapons on your low body count.