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bmsattler wrote:
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.

Pandabeer wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.

I mean, the dude can get a Jump Pack unless you're hellbent on Primaris for whatever reason.

Pandabeer wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.

chaplain dreadnought you mean

I’m not seeing anything hugely awesome about teleporting RG characters. They’ll still be trying to do 9” charges that way. They already have quite a lot of options for getting close to the enemy.

The chaplain idea is interesting but it would require the 3+ roll from him and then the libby power to go off. Much more reliable to have a guy with a jump pack or bike who you can move to where he’s needed after he does his bit of praying.

Teleporting can still win objective games though. It’s pretty cool in maelstrom missions, or for grabbing things like linebreaker.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
For the Raven Guard's teleport a character power, the Land Raider Excelsior is a character. Admittedly, you're probably better off with the Termite Drill if you want a deep-striking transport, but that amused me.

You know what would be an awesome target for that teleport power? A chaplain. Instantly solves all of his mobility problems.

I mean, the dude can get a Jump Pack unless you're hellbent on Primaris for whatever reason.

But the power can get him to effectively Deep Strike turn 1 while still getting his Litany off, which let's you do charges from Pods much better.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Wow raven guard have the worst super doctrine of the lot so far. Can't believe how underwhelming that is compared to iron hands. I mean, sure, eliminators will be buffed (and they're already great) and you'll not have much trouble killing lord discordants, knights and tank commanders.

But only from turn 2 onwards. It's pretty awful compared with TWO major buffs to every single big gun on the board that apply straight away on turn 1

+1 to hit and +1 to wound is double the wounding hits done to characters. Not to mention double any MW generated by sniper type rules. Considering most synergy buffs are on characters this is a big deal.

Also you basically just listed three very powerful meta units which get spammed in tournament lists- having an easier time dealing with them is only a good thing.

A lot of people are discounting how powerful removing the opponents character models is. We haven't even seen the full warlord traits, relics, and stratagems yet. White scars by looking at their combat doctrine buff are a write off, but looking at the other stuff are really good for example.

I agree the RG one has some interesting implications, building a list to remove your opponent’s buffs and making them play different than expected instead of stacking your own buffs and outpowering like usual.

If combining chapters, again remember you won’t get either super doctrine, so I’d probably look at combining chapters where you don’t care about the super as much. Like an RG shooty backfield with a WS assault group. WS’ power seems kinda subpar due to the turn 3 limit, but their ability to get in charge range turn 1 is crazy strong. Snipers to remove things too far to charge could be a good fit.

Scary thought. Such is the size of my grey pile of plastic shame, I could basically build a sizeable iron hands army with things I've already got. I've got three repulsor executioners undercoated metal, a couple of redemptors (one unbuilt, one with a Kantor blue base coat I could easily paint over), 20 intercessors, 9 suppressors and assorted infiltrators, intercessors and characters. If I got the codex, a couple of upgrade sets, some black paint and maybe the special character guy, I'd be good to go.

Iron hands invictors are really very good. All those heavy weapons with an extra -1ap and no penalty for moving and shooting. I don't have any of those yet though.

I could even use my captain in Phobos armour... maybe.

Mandragola wrote:
Scary thought. Such is the size of my grey pile of plastic shame, I could basically build a sizeable iron hands army with things I've already got. I've got three repulsor executioners undercoated metal, a couple of redemptors (one unbuilt, one with a Kantor blue base coat I could easily paint over), 20 intercessors, 9 suppressors and assorted infiltrators, intercessors and characters. If I got the codex, a couple of upgrade sets, some black paint and maybe the special character guy, I'd be good to go.

Iron hands invictors are really very good. All those heavy weapons with an extra -1ap and no penalty for moving and shooting. I don't have any of those yet though.

I could even use my captain in Phobos armour... maybe.

I'm in a very similar position regarding the pile of shame! All my assorted primaris units leftover from buying box sets for other armies now have a useful purpose and some good rules to go with them. They might finally be graced with a coat of paint.

RG super doctrine and catechism of fire have some interesting implications. For example, a squad of aggressors targeting a character knight that is now the closest model.

The aggressors are now hitting on 2+ wounding on 4+ with AP-1

Not always going to be useful as it requires the target to be the closest for Catechism of Fire to come into effect. But I could definitely see it coming into play with proper board control and screen clearing

regarding iron hands, make sure when facing iron hands guys to remember that while you don't suffer the -1 penaty for moving every other pentalty applies, don't try to let an iron hands player move his executioner full speed and fire his main gun twice. I'm sure some people will try to pull that

True. On the other hand, they always get to reroll 1s for their plasma cannon things.

It’s a pretty major bonus for tanks not to need to gather up around a Captain and lieutenant. You could just run a couple of chaplain dreads as your HQs and work with the built in rerolls. Techmarines would be another good choice - preferably with conversion beaners.

Techmarines with chainswords and storm bolters look like a decent budget HQ for 47pts. Wish conversion beamers had jumped to the codex...

I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines

My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)

 WisdomLS wrote:
I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines

My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)

Iron hands Iron Fathers should already be both rolled into one so no need to choose?

Ice_can wrote:

Iron hands Iron Fathers should already be both rolled into one so no need to choose?

I imagine that's exactly what the new special character will be, sup'd up techmarine with special gear and a captain's re-roll bubble. As its their chapter bonus I suspect he might give a re-roll wounds bubble instead though which would be pretty insane.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines

My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)

Would love to see your list! I'm trying to work one out over in the Army List forum, but would be great to see another or get your advice!

 Sledgio wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines

My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)

Would love to see your list! I'm trying to work one out over in the Army List forum, but would be great to see another or get your advice!

Here you go, its basically a way to field all of my dreads at once :-)
Surprisingly effective on the couple of times I've played it and that was before the new codex, add it the ironhands rules and I think it will be a nightmare for certain lists to face. The obvious issue it has is getting locked in combat, deepstriking orks & cult units will cause it massive problems. I have played it with some screening scouts before but they just died being the only thing there to point infantry weapons against. More a fun list that competitive but puts out alot of hurt.

Can't decide what to run it as, full iron hands or a successor - Master artisans is amazing on the dreads then add something else for flavour. The overwatch from pure IH great but the 6+++ is wasted on a few units and the damage chart stuff only effects a couple so likely a successor is better, perhaps an extra 3" range or always in cover over 12"?


Ironhand Successor Spearhead Detachment

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought Storm Bolter, DCCW, Lwin Lascannon
Techmarine Chainsword, Boltgun, Conversion Beamer
Venerable Dreadnought Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought 2x Storm Cannon Arrray, 2x Heavy Flamer, 1x HKM
Thunderfire Cannon 2x Servo Arm, Plasma Cutter, Flamer
Thunderfire Cannon 2x Servo Arm, Plasma Cutter, Flamer

Ironhand Successor Vanguard Detachment

Chaplain Dreadnought Storm Bolter, DCCW, Assault Cannon
Techmarine On Bike Servoarm, Chainsword, Twin Bolter, Boltgun
Dreadnought Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought Multimelta, DCCW, Stormbolter
Ironclad Dreadnought Dreadnought Chainfist, 1x Heavy Flamer, Hurricane Bolter
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought 2x C-Beam Cannon
Relic Deredeo Dreadnought Anvillus Autocannon Battery, Twin Heavy Bolter, Atomantic Pavaise

2000
10 Dreads & 4 Techmarines :-D

RG bonus vs characters is being really underestimated IMO. The meta is full of lord discordants, tank commanders, and knights. Furthermore beat stick characters tend to end up exposed to fire after killing something. For example a smash captain with a thunder hammer and storm shield will be hit on a 2+ and wounded on a 3+ with bolt guns. 35/36 shots will hit with a captain's aura and 2/9 hits will be an unsaved wound with the -1 ap from tactical doctrine. Bikes often also have the speed to get close to an enemy character and can end up being super deadly against T3 now with them only needing a 2+ 2+ to cause a wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people keep saying sniper MW on 5+, no it's MW on 4+ with a chaplain.

 schadenfreude wrote:
RG bonus vs characters is being really underestimated IMO. The meta is full of lord discordants, tank commanders, and knights. Furthermore beat stick characters tend to end up exposed to fire after killing something. For example a smash captain with a thunder hammer and storm shield will be hit on a 2+ and wounded on a 3+ with bolt guns. 35/36 shots will hit with a captain's aura and 2/9 hits will be an unsaved wound with the -1 ap from tactical doctrine. Bikes often also have the speed to get close to an enemy character and can end up being super deadly against T3 now with them only needing a 2+ 2+ to cause a wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people keep saying sniper MW on 5+, no it's MW on 4+ with a chaplain.

If they're the closest model and you succeed on a 3+.

Not impossible-but far from guaranteed.

The chaplain bonus really isn’t a factor. You only get +1 to wound the nearest target, which is unlikely (though not impossible) to be a character you’re sniping at.

But also a chaplain costs more than a whole new eliminator squad, has to give his bonus out at the beginning of the battle round (which is awful) and fails to do it 1 time in 3.

And unfortunately, a ravenguard chaplain with the relic Crozuis won’t do more mortal wounds either, because those only trigger on an unmodified wound roll of a 6.

I’m wondering what troops iron hands should use – if any. Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles might actually not be terrible, with no movement penalties and -3 ap all game. Dakka can be found elsewhere.

You might be better off going with things like infiltrators to keep the baddies away from all your tanks, and also to have some guys who can occupy midfield. These could be backed up by Invictor suits, which look fantastic for iron hands (as basically all their guns are heavy).

Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Sledgio wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
I think the re-roll ones part of their tactic is perhaps there to help you play with let captains and more techmarines

My all dread and techmarine list is loving it :-)

Would love to see your list! I'm trying to work one out over in the Army List forum, but would be great to see another or get your advice!

Here you go, its basically a way to field all of my dreads at once :-)
Surprisingly effective on the couple of times I've played it and that was before the new codex, add it the ironhands rules and I think it will be a nightmare for certain lists to face. The obvious issue it has is getting locked in combat, deepstriking orks & cult units will cause it massive problems. I have played it with some screening scouts before but they just died being the only thing there to point infantry weapons against. More a fun list that competitive but puts out alot of hurt.

Can't decide what to run it as, full iron hands or a successor - Master artisans is amazing on the dreads then add something else for flavour. The overwatch from pure IH great but the 6+++ is wasted on a few units and the damage chart stuff only effects a couple so likely a successor is better, perhaps an extra 3" range or always in cover over 12"?

Spoiler:

Ironhand Successor Spearhead Detachment

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought Storm Bolter, DCCW, Lwin Lascannon
Techmarine Chainsword, Boltgun, Conversion Beamer
Venerable Dreadnought Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought 2x Storm Cannon Arrray, 2x Heavy Flamer, 1x HKM
Thunderfire Cannon 2x Servo Arm, Plasma Cutter, Flamer
Thunderfire Cannon 2x Servo Arm, Plasma Cutter, Flamer

Ironhand Successor Vanguard Detachment

Chaplain Dreadnought Storm Bolter, DCCW, Assault Cannon
Techmarine On Bike Servoarm, Chainsword, Twin Bolter, Boltgun
Dreadnought Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought Multimelta, DCCW, Stormbolter
Ironclad Dreadnought Dreadnought Chainfist, 1x Heavy Flamer, Hurricane Bolter
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought 2x C-Beam Cannon
Relic Deredeo Dreadnought Anvillus Autocannon Battery, Twin Heavy Bolter, Atomantic Pavaise

2000

10 Dreads & 4 Techmarines :-D

That's an impressive amount of Dreads at 2,000! Interested as to why you take the Hurricane Bolter on the Ironclad? Just for a little more screen-clearing? How do two Thunderfire Cannons fare against hordes?

What's the best loadout for a Leviathan? I get the feeling that double Stormcannon Array is usually the way to go, since it's the cheapest gun with the best rate of fire and longest range, but the other options seem interesting as well. (Basically fusing two Venerable dreadmoughts with double autocannons together.)

Also, do people ever have issues deploying it into a gunline, since it has such short range? Being able to move and shoot will help some, but a mere 24" isn't all that long.

The best is indeed the stormcannon array. You can give it an extra 3" with long range marksmen.

I was just thinking how a deredeo giving my gun line a 5++ would be sweet and then they go and give the iron father char the same ability. As long as he isnt super expensive he has to be an auto include.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/12/preview-iron-father-feirrosgw-homepage-post-2/

 p5freak wrote:
The best is indeed the stormcannon array. You can give it an extra 3" with long range marksmen.

I'm a dedicated Iron Hands guy.

Oh wow that's awesome.

His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.

Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.

My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.

Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.

Mandragola wrote:
Oh wow that's awesome.

His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.

Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.

My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.

Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.

He kills a lot more than calgar does shooting. His weapon is a lot better. Considering its +1 Str +1 AP +1 Shot at max range of 30 and gets doctrine bonus turn 1. Calgar is at best a turn 3 melle option - more of a deterrent but its a strong one. Really this guy does just about as much damage in melee as calgar he just can't take the hits as well. Ironhands can still take a chapter master stratagem I believe.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Oh wow that's awesome.

His aura is actually far better than the Deredeo's. That requires units to be wholly within 6" of the dread, which is difficult with big stuff like tanks. This guy's aura works even if just one bit of a vehicle or a single member of a squad is in range.

Doesn't look like he hands out rerolls to hit though - not that iron hands need them.

My only issue with these guys is that I think an all black army would be boring to do. I'll keep waiting to see what my Crimson Fists get. If it's anything like what Iron Hands have, I'll be pretty happy.

Edit: of course the points cost is going to be really important. He's essentially a defensive character who makes your army a bit tougher. He doesn't kill all that much himself either in shooting or melee (though he's not too bad). If he costs a lot you'll probably be better off just buying another vehicle instead.

He kills a lot more than calgar does shooting. His weapon is a lot better. Considering its +1 Str +1 AP +1 Shot at max range of 30 and gets doctrine bonus turn 1. Calgar is at best a turn 3 melle option - more of a deterrent but its a strong one. Really this guy does just about as much damage in melee as calgar he just can't take the hits as well. Ironhands can still take a chapter master stratagem I believe.

While I agree his shooting is superior he is nowhere near the level of calgar in melee. They're not even playing the same game in terms of legality up close and melee counter punch. Calgar has more attacks, hit's harder, hits essentially every time (2+ re-rollable versus flat 3+) and is on similar levels of overall durability depending on what hits him. I think Iron boy is comparable for sure and overall in the same ballpark (albeit less strong IMO), but he's not the fighter boss that Calgar is.