Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was running Vitrix for a while. It seemed really good to have such high saves on cheapish models.

In practice, they're not as strong i think. Reasons? A. They don't shoot, and just have to walk into combat. Why not have more shooting? B. I'm not sure why you're worried about snipers.
C. They tend to actually die relatively easily. I know they have high saves, but the low toughness and model count means they give away easy kill points in practice.

Actually, it's significantly harder.

Without cover:

6 unsaved wounds
18 wounds before 3+ or 3++
36 hits before wounding on a 4+
54 shots before hitting on a 3+

...vs...

6 unsaved wounds
12 wounds before a 4+
24 hits before wounding on a 4+
36 shots before hitting on a 3+

Making them 50% tougher.

With cover, they get to be twice as durable.

So I have a 500pt game tomorrow but I've not played Marines at all since the new Codex dropped. I used to run a Tac-heavy Lias RG list but haven't played 500pts at all in years.

I have a rough idea of what he'll be running, mainly as I gave him tips on his 500 list earlier today for another game.

HQ
Company Commander
- Plasma Pistol
- Power Sword
- Laurels of Command
- Superior Tactical Training

Lord Commissar
- Plasma Pistol
- Power Sword

Troops
Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster

Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster

Infantry Squad
- Voxcaster

Elites
Command Squad
- Medi-pack
- Regimental Standard
- Voxcaster

Platoon Commander

5x Ratlings

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapon Squad
- 3x Lascannon

Wyvern

I suggested he drop the Command Squad for a Mortar HWS.

Now I have roughly 2500pts of Marines at my disposal, but not many Primaris units; only 1 squad of Intercessors, Reivers and Hellblasters each.

I think at 500pts my options are quite limited so here's a first attempt.

HQ
Captain
- Power Sword
- MC Bolter

Lieutenant

Troops
5x Intercessors
- Auto Boltrifle

7x Intercessors
- Boltrifles

5x Tactical Marines
- Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support
5x Devastators
- Rockets
- Armoury Cherub

Total - 487


Any thoughts? As to Chapter Traits I'm thinking Long Range Marksmen and Master Artisans. The rerolls from MA will help mitigate the lack of CP since I'm only taking a Patrol.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bryten wrote:
Is it only me who find the combination of Litany of Faith and Victrix Honor guards tempting? In a sniper heavy eliminator meta all those extra mortal wounds on your characters can be denyed on +5 thanks to the litany (from the begining on the battle round if casted successfully, even if you go second you get the protection). Furthermore, as far as i know all attacks against your characters can be intercepted by the Victrix guards on +2 and are turned into mortal wounds that can be ignored on +5 as well by the litany.

Let me know if I interpreted this the wrong way! Thanks

Nothing prevents them from just shooting the vitrix guard first. Yeah they are a little bit beefy but they are plenty of weapons that remove them pretty easily. That is a huge investment just to get picked off by bolters.

Can you math at all? They're not getting picked off by Bolters.

Hardly "picked off", but the thought is probably, "Since they have 3+ invul, the optimal weapon is AP-1, S5+, with up to D3 a shot". Not really sure what that is in a space marine army other than primaris type bolters and assault cannons? Maybe Autocannons/Predator Autocannons?

Regardless, the thought is don't waste heavy weapons on a 3+ invul. It's isn't harder to put down 2 of these guys with intercessor bolt guns than it is to kill 6 tactical marines.

Ty...excellent explanation. Not any hard to kill these guys with anti chaf weapons than it is to kill primaris marines...which do in fact die to weight of fire. 2+ save offers some protection but every army is going to have an easy way to get rid of these guys.

It occurs to me that if you put the Storm Bolter Rapid Fire 4 relic on a Techmarine, and gave them a servoharness with plasma cutter and flamer, then gave him the Paragon of War warlord trait, you'd be pumping out a lot a looooot of wound rolls each turn to try and roll your natural 6s to get your mortal wounds.

 Fifty wrote:
It occurs to me that if you put the Storm Bolter Rapid Fire 4 relic on a Techmarine, and gave them a servoharness with plasma cutter and flamer, then gave him the Paragon of War warlord trait, you'd be pumping out a lot a looooot of wound rolls each turn to try and roll your natural 6s to get your mortal wounds.

Yeah it's pretty nice. I've done that before. Works best on a termi captain though because you will get 8 shots at 24" on turn 1.

Captain on Bike with that does the job fairly well as well. Rapid Fire 4 Relic and Rapid Fire 2 TL Bolter is pretty good for fairly cheap.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Captain on Bike with that does the job fairly well as well. Rapid Fire 4 Relic and Rapid Fire 2 TL Bolter is pretty good for fairly cheap.

Ill have to try that. I always forget I have a biker captain.

For those that haven’t seen, the FW Index FAQ docs have been updated on the Community site.

The Scorpius and Hyperious are no longer WHIRLWINDS so no more shoot twice and/or Chronus.

Not sure if others have noticed this, but the Stormhawk infernum halo launcher rules have changed.

It used to be re roll armour saves of 1 (crap) and is now an additional -1 to hit from FLY key word units. This, in an era of everything having fly, is actually a pretty big change. My go to chapter trait combo at the moment is long range marksmen and stealthy for a -2 to hit, 2+ save flyer. Might have to get a second one.

Good spot. I think that makes Stormhawks even more worth considering. It’s sort of a shame that they’re so much better as Iron Hands than for anyone else though.

Still waiting to see what my Crimson Fist rules will be, but I can’t really imagine they’ll be better for my (currently grey plastic) vehicles than Iron Hands are.

I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.

Two or three things are stopping me:

- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.

I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.

 ewar wrote:
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.

Khornatedemon wrote:

 ewar wrote:
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.

I agree that's the most likely outcome. Also the character dreads will definitely get set to be only one model I think.

I'm fortunate that my marines are my own chapter with a mysterious past... so I play around with a few different chapter tactics. The IH castle is just boring play, same as the guilliman castle was, but at least Bobby could counter punch in the late game which added some interest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ewar wrote:
Greyshield.

Who has ideas for interesting combos?

I'm thinking of an Ultras list which runs pure dakka, probably 300+ bolt rounds in turn 2. Combined with IF tactic for exploding 6s could be very nice, but is it worth 2cps?


Any other ideas?

I didn't get any takers on this question the other day, probably because I posted it at the height of the IH shock.

I'm sure that collectively there must be some good ideas out there for picking the best of the CTs. Is the IH one worth it turn 1? You don't get the super doctrine, so I think probably not, but it might be worth trying out. Actually thinking about it, getting a 5+ overwatch for a turn combined with the UM strat for +3 units firing overwatch would be pretty damned funny.

I actually don’t think the IH castle will be as boring as castles tend to be. It’s inherently quite mobile, relative to most other gunlines.

That said, I tend to think that aura abilities are bad for the game. It’s dull to blob everything together. That’s partly why I like the idea of flyers for IH, because they’ll inevitably zoom off. And it’ll be pretty useful to have them do so, to root out people hiding out of LoS.

Khornatedemon wrote:

 ewar wrote:
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.

Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.

I am starting to think space marines is a superior race.

I posted a rough 2000pt list idea in the lists forum, curious what you guys think of the viability. Short form it’s 2 BA smash caps, loyal 32, and then a bunch of RG jump chars, invictors, and an aggressor blob to ambush up. And of course 30 scouts to put some bolter bodies all over.

I was thinking about RG turn 1 charge list ideas and thought about souping in BA smash captains to get both their wings redeploy, bigger hammers, and their deny overwatch relic. If charging in turn 1/2 anyways I’m not really using the RG doctrine and it’s too early for the White Scar one, so is souping even hurting that much?

As long as it avoids getting shot to pieces before the jump chars can get in cc I think it’s do quite well vs IH, that’s enough melee hits to drop the IH vehicles while avoiding their overwatch and has some charge bonuses to counter the -2”. But I also don’t want to over tailor vs IH and be too weak vs other matchups either.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

 ewar wrote:
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.

Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.

So make the army garbage, got it

Mandragola wrote:
Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.

Two or three things are stopping me:

- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.

I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.

Crimson Fists have the worst Tactic by far. I'd highly recommend going against it unless they're allowed to be ran under Imperial Fists like they originally were.

Khornatedemon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

 ewar wrote:
I wouldn't get too hung up about IH, they'll get nerfed if they're too strong, so no point planning purchases around a rule that will only be temporary (unless you don't mind the pay to win cycle of the big tournaments).

If IH get nerfed it will most likely revolve around feirros and/or the ironstone. I doubt the chapter tactic that makes planes worth using in the army is going to get changed. I know my 2 stormtalons have been loving the new rules and the stormhawk is arguable the better choice now.

Honestly their super doctrine is probably the biggest issue outside of iron stone. It is just flat out too good. It should probably get nerfed to just reroll 1's without the move and shoot penalty removal and just make ironstone single target AND can not stack with other damage mitigation.

So make the army garbage, got it

How would it be garbage...WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Well yeah, that. I don’t exactly have to pay to win to have a pretty optimised IH army under the current rules. My pile of grey plastic shame is extensive. It currently includes three repulsor executioners and at least two or three planes. I’ve also got the whole contents of shadowspear, ~20 intercessors and a redemptor dread.

Two or three things are stopping me:

- Black armour is boring in my opinion. I’m a decent painter and would prefer something more visually appealing.
- I like my Crimson Fists and want to see their rules.
- I’m not sure I’d enjoy the play style – though planes might make the army considerably more fun.

I’ve got this vague idea of painting up some guys as a homebrew chapter. Ever since I saw Primaris I’ve been curious to see how they’d look in camouflage. I’m quite keen to try out both Raven Guard and Iron Hands so I could potentially use some of my grey plastic guys to make something like this.

Crimson Fists have the worst Tactic by far. I'd highly recommend going against it unless they're allowed to be ran under Imperial Fists like they originally were.

It's not the worst - it's just significantly worse than imperial fists.

The 6's with bolt weapons generating an additional hit is REALLY good. Ultras tactic is the worst hands down.

This game is very easy no need for math.

What game you need math ?

Trust your heart and you are right.

Amai wrote:


Trust your heart.

And the heart of the dice!

And the truthiness of your views!

Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

We also have no idea what the CF super doctrine will be (if they get a different one to IF). It might be all kinds of awesome. We'll have to wait and see.

Crimson fists need a few more little tweaks to make them catch up though.

Something unique that wouldn't be over the top would be some kind of buff to the last man in a unit or some such.

Mabey give the last guy standing in a CF unit +1 S and T, and make them hold objectives as though they are 10 models.

Indeed, which is why so much of my plastic is still grey right now. I actually kind of feel like the army is finished and I wouldn't mind painting something different, but on the other hand I've enjoyed using them and it would be cool to keep doing so.

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.

I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.

As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.