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Probably true about Templars. They lack the units to really make use of the doctrine, which isn’t all that useful anyway.

But pretty much all the CTs are situational. The Ravenguard one is awesome against Tau or IG, but irrelevant against most chaos or GSC armies, and easily negated by Eldar. The Ultramarines one doesn’t come up often at all – units that fly can fall back anyway and stuff that can’t will often be wrapped.

This is part of what makes Iron Hands look so good. Their CT always applies because the bad guys will almost always try to kill your dudes. And it helps to have an always on super-doctrine.

I’ve honestly always found Crimson Fists fine in comparison. It’s just a problem that right now we’ve got no super doctrine, relics, warlord traits and so on. That obviously puts the army way behind the others. Even so I’ve been playing the army in tournaments since the start of 8th and they’ve always done reasonably well – qualifying for the GT finals both of the years I took them. And that was before marines were any good.

That said, they’ve always been a kind of casual tournament army for me – one that will do fine but not an army to go 5:0 with. I could see a good IH or RG army winning events now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.

Because the doctrine, a single relic and one or two strats are all the IH book has going for it. Gut the doctrine, you gut the army.

Also I love how you're still crapping on White Scars, which are the polar opposite. They dont give a damn about their doctrine. Their strength comes from multiple good strats, WL traits and relics, plus the ability to massively punish gunlines by getting in their face at a time and place of their own choosing.

So the whole of 8th people have been crying out for tanks that can fall back and shoot. We get given tanks that can fall back and shoot.

Now all of a sudden it's the worst CT!? You guys are nuts. Big dev cent blobs being able to fall back and shoot? Amazing.

UM CT is a real all rounder. It's almost like it caters to taking a mix of units and a balanced play style....

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
WS have to wait until turn 3 to get any benefit without stratagems out of their super doctrine. Ironhands start turn 1 - reroll1's with heavies is great compared to like (DA reroll 1's if they stay still, Same with the orks ability) and these armys don't also have 3 other competitive traits for their chapter tactic too..GET REAL...Ultras have to wait unitl turn 2 to move without penalty and they lose AP for it.

Because the doctrine, a single relic and one or two strats are all the IH book has going for it. Gut the doctrine, you gut the army.

Also I love how you're still crapping on White Scars, which are the polar opposite. They dont give a damn about their doctrine. Their strength comes from multiple good strats, WL traits and relics, plus the ability to massively punish gunlines by getting in their face at a time and place of their own choosing.

This. Nerf iron stone and feirros if you want but the doctrine still leaves a very mobile shooty marine force. I can see a list based on impulsors/Razorbacks and fliers maybe backed up by some dreads for lascannons being able to work well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ewar wrote:
So the whole of 8th people have been crying out for tanks that can fall back and shoot. We get given tanks that can fall back and shoot.

Now all of a sudden it's the worst CT!? You guys are nuts. Big dev cent blobs being able to fall back and shoot? Amazing.

UM CT is a real all rounder. It's almost like it caters to taking a mix of units and a balanced play style....

No just that one guy is nuts. UM CT is damn fine and their doctrine makes units like aggressors nutty.

To me it seems like most of the chapters we've seen so far look decent, but IH look broken.

There’s a pretty scattergun approach to balancing super doctrines, relics, strats and so on. All codexes feature a lot of “meh” options. Some are great.

IH benefit from a very strong super doctrine that’s active all the time, a great special character and a relic that’s far too powerful. Their strats might not be all that amazing but there’s still some really good stuff in there – letting intercessors tank wounds for characters and a deny the witch on a 4+ strat, for example.

This coincidence of good abilities has kind of always been why some sub-factions get picked more than others, for every army in 40k. If all marines are IH in future is it any worse than all Eldar being Alaitoc and all Tau being… Tau (apart from sometimes a detachment from the world where everyone is a firesight marksman)?

In a way it’s good that marines are getting rewarded for not souping. Let’s just not pretend that the abilities the different chapters get are in any way balanced.

And so, if I’m going to make an army to try and win events, it’ll probably be Iron hands. Maybe Raven Guard and just possibly Crimson Fists. But I can’t even plan a list for now until I get my rules.

I actually picked up Shrike to add to my grey plastic pile of shame last night. No Iron Fathers in stock though – ominously!

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.

Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.

I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.

As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.

Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.

Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.

I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.

As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.

Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.

You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.

5+ Overwatch. DRINK.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.

Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.

I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.

As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.

Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.

You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.

I like how you ignored how I suggested how to use the Fall Back + Shoot aggressively just so you could whine "Woe is me" once more.

Also you still said Vitrix get pelted by Bolters and die. So once again it's pretty damn hard to take what you say seriously. At all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

NO other Chapter Tactic relies on your opponent's army composition. Even Ultramarines, if your opponent runs all guns, can make use of charging to tie up units and then falling back to shoot as something aggressive. Imperial Fists help deny good deployment with terrain.

Crimson Fists, meanwhile, can have a game where you can't even get that bonus to hit because the opponent built their army wrong for you to benefit. Kantor himself might be good, and yeah the Fist Relic is good, but that doesn't make for a good army. They at least functioned when they were under the Imperial Fists rules themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Weird that you all hate the CF chapter tactic. Personally I find +1 to hit is one of the best possible buffs available in 40k. It comes up a lot and dramatically improves damage output against stuff like plaguebearers - though to be honest perhaps we've now got that army beat anyway. In general though it's a lot better for a unit of aggressors or centurions to get +1 to hit than something like one reroll to hit and wound, even when it doesn't always proc. You just take a captain and lieutenant anyway..

Historically, Crimson Fists have always had some pretty good relics too. The Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain becomes a very cheap smash captain - albeit one who can't jump.

We'll have to see what's in the codex when it finally lands, but I've never been sorry with my choice. It does look like Kantor isn't getting the Primaris treatment, which sucks. Means he can still ride in transports with centurions though.

I don't believe it's very bad. It's situationally powerful, and encourages a focus on target priority to maximize it, and an army build that gives you more chances to use it. That ticks both the boxes for me - effective and deep.

I'd say the weakest is still Black Templars.

As for Grey Shield combos, the interesting ones to me are adding the main bunch to a group of successor chapter Intercessors.

Black Templars getting the rewording on their charge makes them significantly stronger as a melee centric army. The Mortal wound 5+++ is just a bonus at that point and excellent for Psyker spam that STILL happens.

You gotta be kidding me. Close to half the armies in the game want to be no where near marines units and fall back and shoot is 100% useless here. +1 LD almost always 100% useless. I'd trade it for CF any day of the week vs literally any opponent just for the 6's generating additional hits on bolt weapons the +1 to hit would be an okay bonus and more useful than fallback and shoot in probably more games than the ability to fall back and shoot at -1 to hit. heck the 5+ overwatch for ironhands is better than the ability to fall back and shoot because things literally wont be able to charge you a lot of times. Try playing ultramarines sometime and lean something - playing ultras is like not having a chapter tactic in most of your games.

I like how you ignored how I suggested how to use the Fall Back + Shoot aggressively just so you could whine "Woe is me" once more.

Also you still said Vitrix get pelted by Bolters and die. So once again it's pretty damn hard to take what you say seriously. At all.

I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.

For vehicles they can fall back and hit at 5+ to hit because they are all heavies...fly keyword is way better for vehicles. Too bad ultras trait offers nothing of interest for a vehicle except the ability to trade ap for +1 to hit...which in most cases will result in the same amount of damage...AND the super doctrine DOESNT EVEN WORK IF YOU FALL BACK...because...that would be TOO POWERFUL or something...it is a laughing stock of balance. It's literally GW listening to cry babies while simultaneously thinking people will buy a new marines army and paint it black like the rolling stones - they wont BTW.

For infantry they can fight reasonably well in CC and do more damage not falling back. For elites like cents and agressors yeah the trait is okay if you somehow manage to get them into combat in the first place...Why someone wouldn't just shoot them to death is beyond me. These are the hardest units in the codex to use too...slow with unrealistic transport options.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
5+ Overwatch. DRINK.

3 army traits in 1 - drink.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.

You quite literally have no clue how to play a Marine army do you. Staying in with those amazeballs S:User AP0 D1 punches instead of using your delicious Calgar aura for 75% accuracy with all your goddamn guns, why didnt anyone else think of that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

3 army traits in 1 - drink.

They could have fifteen traits and it wouldnt matter. What matters is the quality of said traits, and in the case of Iron Hands only one is remotely relevant: the 6+++. Its also massively outclassed by what you can do with successor chapters, but hey please continue to be absolutely clueless. I'm getting my free entertainment for the day.

Removed - kindly use spoiler tags when quoting massive walls of text next time
Ultramarines not being useful for vehicles? Did you literally forget how to read? They got the most relevant part of Fly! BS5+ is still fine for not being tied up. On a Asscanback that's still 4 shots landing for a unit that would need to literally be surrounded to tie up.

Also it isn't a useless strategy because it ties up units without the same exact ability. Either the opponent needs to fall back so they can shoot the unit, or they don't and you fall back and still shoot, ergo the strategy worked either way. Just because you can't do anything with it honestly means nothing to to me because you only know how to sit still and shoot.

You might as well play Tau. Maybe you'll like them better.

Also who cares that you don't get the Super Doctrine when falling back? Iron Hands don't get to fall back and shoot at all with their non-Fly units. White Scars don't get any benefit until T3. Raven Guard have one that completely goes against the preferred weapon type with sniping.

Removed - BrookM


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I ignored it because it reduces your total damage and is therefore a useless strategy. You do more damage in CC than you do falling back and shooting at -1. Plus what game are you playing where people don't just fall back after you charge them and blow you up with other parts of their army? These are unrealistic situations that basically never happen.

You quite literally have no clue how to play a Marine army do you. Staying in with those amazeballs S:User AP0 D1 punches instead of using your delicious Calgar aura for 75% accuracy with all your goddamn guns, why didnt anyone else think of that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

3 army traits in 1 - drink.

They could have fifteen traits and it wouldnt matter. What matters is the quality of said traits, and in the case of Iron Hands only one is remotely relevant: the 6+++. Its also massively outclassed by what you can do with successor chapters, but hey please continue to be absolutely clueless. I'm getting my free entertainment for the day.

He is clueless. He literally said earlier that Victrix, which are 10 points per T4 2+ wound, die to Bolters too easily. What does that tell you?

Bolters are AP-1 or 2 typically....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters per point. I am correct ofc as usual.

I'd really like to put on a workshop for how to play 40k for you guys. t4 models with 3 wounds are not hard to remove with basically any weapon in the game with any amount of AP. The point was you shouldn't include the vitrix - you'd probably be better with an apoth because he can't be targeted. Though...he also still sucks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.

9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save

6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save

Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1 or 2 typically....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters per point. I am correct ofc as usual.

I'd really like to put on a workshop for how to play 40k for you guys. t4 models with 3 wounds are not hard to remove with basically any weapon in the game with any amount of AP. The point was you shouldn't include the vitrix - you'd probably be better with an apoth because he can't be targeted. Though...he also still sucks.

Literally nothing in this statement is correct.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.

9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save

6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save

Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.

Wowzers! You sure you're "correct ofc as usual" there, Xeno?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.

9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save

6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save

Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.

Wowzers! You sure you're "correct ofc as usual" there, Xeno?

But wait, Bolt Rifles can easily be AP-2!

Which drops an Intercessor to a 5+, and the Victrix to... 3+. Because they have a shield.

Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.

9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save

6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save

Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.

Intercessors are 17 points for 2 wounds and victrix are 30 points for 3 wounds. They die at about the same rate. To argue against this is purely argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Vitrix are not viable. That isn't even what I was saying though...I'm just going to remove your victrix with anti chaff than snipe your leader...You can't stop me from doing this. Therefore it is a garbage strategy.

Stalker bolt rifles can even be AP-3 (devastator doctrine) and do 2 damage.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But wait, Bolt Rifles can easily be AP-2!

Which drops an Intercessor to a 5+, and the Victrix to... 3+. Because they have a shield.

Not to mention basic bolters in tactical doctrine plinking off Victrix cover on a 2+ (because any competent player is going to look for that entrenching option). Or just flat out plinking off Victrix on that same 2+ if not fired by marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?

See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters are AP-1....are you a clown? They literally die at an easier rate than primaris marines to bolters. I am correct ofc as usual.

9 shots
6 hits
3 wounds
1 failed save

6 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save

Please assign one of those to Victrix and one to an ordinary Intercessor.

Intercessors are 17 points for 2 wounds and victrix are 30 points for 3 wounds. They die at about the same rate. To argue against this is purely argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Vitrix are not viable. That isn't even what I was saying though...I'm just going to remove your victrix with anti chaff than snipe your leader...You can't stop me from doing this. Therefore it is a garbage strategy.

10 points per 9 shots
8.5 points per 6 shots

Those are, respectively, 1.11 and 1.42 points per shot. That's 1.275 times the effectiveness.

Drop them in cover, and gets worse.
Apply high AP, it gets worse.
Do 2 damage a shot, it gets a LOT worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?

See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?

You sound redic. You are the one suggesting a strategy that is countered ridiculously easily.

Plus the point is if the unit is to tough to crack then you just snipe the HQ's and he has to take mortal taking away the 3++. They are garbage because they can be targeted.

My redemptor dreads don't give a damn about these guys. Literally no army I play would have trouble removing them.

Removed - BrookM

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.

Stalkers do two damage apiece genius. I know it requires functional cognitive capacity, but please actually know the rules for the units you're talking about.

That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Smart players use their weapons intelligently not idiotically like you are suggesting.

Stalkers do two damage apiece genius. I know it requires functional cognitive capacity, but please actually know the rules for the units you're talking about.

You also conveniently forgot about the 5+ FNP in the original example that you tried to gak on.

Character could easily have that 5+ FNP as well.

Really? Where are you getting a 5+++ from normal wounds from?

 Xenomancers wrote:
That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.

Given your blatant and excruciating ignorance, no it isnt obvious. You routinely get basic details of units, rules and actions wrong. If you want people to take you seriously, get your facts in order.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Character could easily have that 5+ FNP as well.

Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.

Sterling191 wrote:
Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.

That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.

You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.