Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.

You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.

The bodyguard rule kicks in after wounds are lost on the target. The baseline FNP would apply, then the bodyguard roll, then the Chappy FNP on the bodyguard mortal.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That is not true. You're only allowed one aftersave-so you can either take your 2+ to shift it the Victrix, or your 5+ FNP.

You cannot, unless they changed it in the latest FAQ, take both.

The bodyguard rule kicks in after wounds are lost on the target. The baseline FNP would apply, then the bodyguard roll, then the Chappy FNP on the bodyguard mortal.

I'm pretty sure that an FAQ forbids you taking more than one Ignore Wounds roll, which FNP and the Bodyguard rule both are.

I'll make a YMDC thread for it.

Here.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm pretty sure that an FAQ forbids you taking more than one Ignore Wounds roll, which FNP and the Bodyguard rule both are.

I'll make a YMDC thread for it.

Here.

FAQ on FNPs:

"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’"

Emphasis mine. The Victrix bodyguard rule isnt on a per wound basis, its explicitly on a per-attack basis (as you only get one swing at that 2+ to invoke the Bodyguard ability regardless of how much damage is involved). The two stack.

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm pretty sure that an FAQ forbids you taking more than one Ignore Wounds roll, which FNP and the Bodyguard rule both are.

I'll make a YMDC thread for it.

Here.

FAQ on FNPs:

"Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’"

Emphasis mine. The Victrix bodyguard rule isnt on a per wound basis, its explicitly on a per-attack basis. The two stack.

Interesting. I also note that it specifies that if the MODEL has more than one such ability-but the Victrix's bodyguard rule isn't an ability of the injured model, it's an ability of a DIFFERENT model.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Interesting. I also note that it specifies that if the MODEL has more than one such ability-but the Victrix's bodyguard rule isn't an ability of the injured model, it's an ability of a DIFFERENT model.

Precisely. Its similar to how Tau Shield Drones get their FNP after invoking Saviour Protocols.

The end result is that if you're trying to snipe out a character with a 5+++ protected by a bodyguard unit packing a 5+++ against mortals, there's a roughly 55% flat probability of ignoring any damage, irrespective of other defensive profiles.

In other words, you aint sniping gak in that scenario without massive firepower.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That was obviously a typo. You are just sour and mean. I know stalkers do 2 damage lol.

Given your blatant and excruciating ignorance, no it isnt obvious. You routinely get basic details of units, rules and actions wrong. If you want people to take you seriously, get your facts in order.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Character could easily have that 5+ FNP as well.

Which would make it even harder to kill the Victrix by forcing them to tank damage as a bodyguard as both FNPs would be applied to your ZOMG STALKER barrage.

Dude I bet you don't talk like this to people in real life. Stop being an internet warrior please. Be nice.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude I bet you don't talk like this to people in real life. Stop being an internet warrior please. Be nice.

That is good advice.

Something you should follow too. (And me as well-I've had unneededly high levels of sass in this thread.)

The Chaplain buff strategy does produce 5+++ to mortals on the honor guard unit so you can effectively get 2 FNP rolls if the character has a FNP.

However for the cost of the chaplain - your opponent could just include another unit of snipers.

I guess it's 9 eliminators and a 10 man stalker bolter that you are trying to defend against. This chaplin vitrix combo might bye you one turn if you could keep the victrix out of LOS from being picked off.

My personsal opinion. Drop the victrix and chaplain. Bye yourself 2 razorsbacks with TLHB and hide behind them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget his broken Stalker Bolt Rifles with Iron Hands, where the Victrix still have the 3++ and the Intercessors have only the 6+ at that point.

I'd just snipe the leader in that case and if he fails a save the victrix has to take 3 mortals to prevent the wounds completely ignoring the 3++. LOL

Yeah, because the Honour Guard having cheap wounds for the HQ wasn't part of their point, huh?

See how ridiculous you sound? Is this really the hill you wish to die on?

You sound redic. You are the one suggesting a strategy that is countered ridiculously easily.

Plus the point is if the unit is to tough to crack then you just snipe the HQ's and he has to take mortal taking away the 3++. They are garbage because they can be targeted.

My redemptor dreads don't give a damn about these guys. Literally no army I play would have trouble removing them.

Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.

Also defending the Redemptor? LOL

Slayer are you honestly saying the redemptor isn't good? Or what are you saying...I have no idea.

What I'm saying is its going to be non sniper weapons killing the victrix. I think an apoth is probably a better investment than the victrix. It leaves them with a conundrum. Target the character you want to kill and risk him getting healed? Or go for the apoth first? Razorback or Rhino works a lot better IMO.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.

Oh what's the wording on the bodyguard ability? Necron one at least isn't "may" or "can". Lychguard HAS to protect character if character takes wound.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well if something is legit that dangerous from the sniping, like Stalker Bolt Strat or Eliminators or Vindicare, then yeah I'll gladly take Mortal Wounds on a Guard. If it isn't dangerous, like Scouts or Ratlings, the HQ can probably tank. I'm not forced into Mortal Wounds.

Oh what's the wording on the bodyguard ability? Necron one at least isn't "may" or "can". Lychguard HAS to protect character if character takes wound.

It says can.

Aw jeeze.

Whenever I see that Xenomancers has picked some new hill to die on, it means I have to ignore the forum for a few days and wait until everyone's done arguing in circles.

rooster92 wrote:
Aw jeeze.

Whenever I see that Xenomancers has picked some new hill to die on, it means I have to ignore the forum for a few days and wait until everyone's done arguing in circles.

Probably because the hill he chose to die on was a really fething bad one.

I have seen custodes succumb to bolter fire on Winter SEO so no doubt about that.

Xenomancer i would suggest you use your energy on rebalancing 40k and posting the results in here. Lets do a fan based edition on this game ?

Maybe add some new factions / chapters as well. I already have a skaven faction in development.

I would hope you could start with space marines as i see them most interesting. And let me say, the 8th edition is the most interesting edition so far, the gameplay is easy and it introduces neat things like strategems. I was only vaguely interested in 40k before.

I will also jest you and say that you will make the game even more unbalanced.

I start with a suggestion, instead of tuning down the most powerful relics we take 2-3 most powerful relics in each chapter and put them under restriction that they can be only taken once for each army with a specified strategem that costs 2 or 3 CP. If there are not enough strong relics, we shall invent new ones. Lets use the existing mechanisms and not invent new ones, but invent new content instead. I shall also express my opinion that most of the units, relics and so are fine as they are but there are probably several either under or overwhelming ones in the current setup (which is ever changing).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude I bet you don't talk like this to people in real life. Stop being an internet warrior please. Be nice.

That is good advice.

Something you should follow too. (And me as well-I've had unneededly high levels of sass in this thread.)

Indeed, I'm kinda suprised a mod hasn't intervened. Some of you are being pricks.

Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(

I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.

Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?

bmsattler wrote:
Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(

I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.

Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?

Nope, you can go custom as long as they're listed a Successor. So your best bet is Stealthy and the extra 3" on range weapons.

bmsattler wrote:
Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(

I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.

Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?

As a successor you lose access to special characters and half the relics. You can take one of the RG only relics with a 1 CP strat as a successor. That is it.

Thanks for the replies guys. I really appreciate it!

 Blood Hawk wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
Another question for those of you with codexes. My Raven Guard book is still on order. :(

I'm looking to take the Raptors Successor chapter of the Raven Guard. What will taking the Raven Guard chapter tactic allow me to use? Strategiems, warlord traits, relics? Raven Guard super-sniper doctrine? I know I lose the special characters for Raven Guard, but its not clear what else.

Do I lose everything if I don't take Inheritors of the Primarch?

As a successor you lose access to special characters and half the relics. You can take one of the RG only relics with a 1 CP strat as a successor. That is it.

Which is overall worth it if you're not going Shrike. Lias is still a fantastic option, having 3 Drop Pods basically baked into his cost. Then you can go, as I've been saying like a record on repeat, Stealthy + Marksman

This might have been missed, but successor chapter or no, I wouldn't get the +1 to hit/wound from Raven Guard would I?

bmsattler wrote:
This might have been missed, but successor chapter or no, I wouldn't get the +1 to hit/wound from Raven Guard would I?

If you're pure Raptors, then you still get the bonus.

Rather than debate the survivability-per-point of the Victrix Guard, I'm going to say this: as an Ultramarine player, I have not yet found space for them when making a competitive list. I have to spend so many points on characters now to fuel my detachment/CP/buff needs that every extra point needs to go to stuff that can reach out and touch the enemy. I play most often using NOVA missions, so the L's and 1st floor ruins blocking LOS means that if I need to hide my characters, I have ways of doing it that don't involve spending more points. I haven't played against Raven Guard yet, so that may change my perspective, but against most armies I can't see it being a worthwhile investment. If the enemy is targeting your Ultramarine characters and you aren't playing against Eliminators or Stalker-heavy Imperial Fists, something has already gone horribly wrong. And regardless of how survivable they are, small bodyguard units are great targets to pick up points with secondaries.

If Victrix were available to my White Scars successors I'd use them in every list.

If you're actually super aggressive with your Ultramarines instead of gun lining like Iron Hands and Imperial Fists you might get more value out of them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If Victrix were available to my White Scars successors I'd use them in every list.

If you're actually super aggressive with your Ultramarines instead of gun lining like Iron Hands and Imperial Fists you might get more value out of them.

Victrix Guard in a White Scars successor list are a different animal. Ultramarines aren't meant to play like White Scars, Iron Hands or Imperial Fists. They are about mobile, aggressive shooting-based deathballs that make charging them essentially pointless through massive Overwatch, decent counterpunch and the ability to fall back and shoot. I want to spend my points on units like Aggressors or bolt rifle Intercessors that receive maximum benefit from Scions of Guilliman and can still hang in melee if they need to.

Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.

Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?

Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.

 ewar wrote:
Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.

Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?

Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.

No. For a super-doctrine to be active the entire army must be either the first founding chapter, or a single successor chapter.

yellowfever wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude I bet you don't talk like this to people in real life. Stop being an internet warrior please. Be nice.

That is good advice.

Something you should follow too. (And me as well-I've had unneededly high levels of sass in this thread.)

Indeed, I'm kinda suprised a mod hasn't intervened. Some of you are being pricks.

Yup. Pretty much the entire lot going in circles should take an extended forum break.

 ewar wrote:
Not sure if this is better in YMDC or not, but figured some here might know the answer.

Is there a way to get Guilliman into a SM army (that isn't a true blue UM) and keep the super doctrine?

Seems to really limit him if using him costs me my super doctrine, even as UM successor.

Honestly, Guilliman might not be worth it anymore in a pure UM list. The change to his aura and his warlord trait mean that taking him over Calgar+Lieutenant really hurts an army's CP pool, which is much more important now with all the great stratagems available. Pointswise, I think he's probably worth the 80 points over Calgar+Lieutenant if you need the extra beatstick, but the opportunity cost is just so high. Calgar can also utilize a stratagem for +3" aura range if necessary, which Guilliman lacks the keywords for.