+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Stavkat**

Mandragola, I think you need to do some play testing, with your original list. The combo of 6 flying menaces may very well make up for the slightly less protected slightly less beefy HQ...

**bort**

Has anyone thought of a use for Incursors? I’m not sure I get the point unless you really really need that primaris scout without buying the better Infiltrators. The ignore penalties and cover sounds great until you realize their guns can’t hurt anything like Eldar fliers and without a full size unit would even struggle to drop a min Ranger unit. I heard that they could be used to decent effect tying to stack up all those on hit rolls of 6s get an extra melee attack type buffs but then they FAQed it so 6 hit rolls don’t count as 6s for proccing more effects...What else do they do? I don’t see taking the unit for 1 mine unless the base unit was also decent.

**BertBert**

So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.

**Slayer-Fan123**

BertBert wrote:
So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.

I've tested Stalkers and they're pretty darn godly. I'm planning to buy three at this point.

**Mandragola**

Stavkat wrote:
Mandragola, I think you need to do some play testing, with your original list. The combo of 6 flying menaces may very well make up for the slightly less protected slightly less beefy HQ...

So you're saying I have to do the work and not just theorise online? Curses!

bort wrote:
Has anyone thought of a use for Incursors? I’m not sure I get the point unless you really really need that primaris scout without buying the better Infiltrators. The ignore penalties and cover sounds great until you realize their guns can’t hurt anything like Eldar fliers and without a full size unit would even struggle to drop a min Ranger unit. I heard that they could be used to decent effect tying to stack up all those on hit rolls of 6s get an extra melee attack type buffs but then they FAQed it so 6 hit rolls don’t count as 6s for proccing more effects...What else do they do? I don’t see taking the unit for 1 mine unless the base unit was also decent.

Yeah you're about right here. This is a unit that has managed to get nerfed before actually being released.

They're marginally more fighty than infiltrators, but lack the phenomenally-powerful aura that is the main reason to bring infiltrators in the first place. Instead you can get some guys right in the enemy's face... only to find they don't really have any good reason to be there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BertBert wrote:
So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.

I've tested Stalkers and they're pretty darn godly. I'm planning to buy three at this point.

I haven't tried Stalkers but they do look legitimately powerful. If the rumours about Fists getting +1D with heavy weapons vs vehicles are true, then they'll be great. Not sure you want a full battery of three, but you could do worse.

Some people seem to have success with hunters too. I don't understand how.

**DoomMouse**

Made a vid on the stalker the other day if it'd be of use to anyone. They are legit anti air, did the maths on that skyfire strat and it's totally worth it on the stalker (much more impressive than on the hunter)

They're also very durable for the points - essentially a leman russ chassis at around 60% of the cost!

And unlike russes you can stack a hideous number of buffs on them through characters, chapter tactics, doctrines and boosted chapter-specific doctrines (cough iron hands cough)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8uPz6XR4ow

**Mandragola**

Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.

The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.

Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Mandragola wrote:
Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.

The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.

Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.

You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.

**addnid**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.

The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.

Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.

You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.

Indeed, because dreds don't fly. Executioners are very hard to take out because you can't prevent them from shooting by tarpiting them. They can also just fly over a wall and shoot, thus easily avoiding enemy alpha strike on dense terrain tables. Though I do think levi IH dreds are OP, just not as much as executioners (or even regular repulsors).

**Mandragola**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.

The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.

Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.

You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.

Well I wasn't one of those people. An IH repulsor is obviously better than a dread with 24" range guns, no matter how immortal it is.

Imagine an IH leviathan trying to fight an IH executioner in a mirror match. It's kind of ridiculous. Probably neither of them would die, but the person with the leviathan would miss at least one round of shooting because of being out of range.

Anyway we'll see if Imperial Fists can fight back against this. I don't think anyone much else can. Maybe a list based around tons of lascannons would work, though the repulsors themselves have (better versions of) these.

**COLD CASH**

Mandragola wrote:
Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.

The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.

Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.

Yep that game was bonkers, running the worse plasma and annihilating planes left and right!!

**Mandragola**

The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.

I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.

**Lemondish**

Mandragola wrote:
TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.

I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?

Middle of Nowhere GT in literal middle of nowhere Manitoba saw a pretty solid Iron Hands list make it 2nd with triple Stormhawks and triple Repulsor Executioners, so I think you're absolutely right here.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mandragola wrote:
The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.

I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.

I hadn't really looked at the difference between the two Storms. Having access to an additional -1 to hit is pretty darn good though for the price.

**godardc**

Do you all play with the supplements ? Or is there anyone playing with just the codex ?

**JNAProductions**

godardc wrote:
Do you all play with the supplements ? Or is there anyone playing with just the codex ?

There's not really a reason to NOT play with the supplements-it's a straight boost in power (or at least, gives access to more options) with no downsides. Anything you don't like, you can just not use.

**Mandragola**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.

I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.

I hadn't really looked at the difference between the two Storms. Having access to an additional -1 to hit is pretty darn good though for the price.

It really is. Affects pretty much all Eldar, Riptides, other people's repulsors, and pretty much every necron with a meaningful gun. It's a big help.

I did see that two IH armies had drawn against each other at the Middle of Nowhere tournament. Interesting that the one with the Astraeus did so well. I wonder if it went first when they played each other, because otherwise I'm surprised that army was able to compete. I wasn't there though.

I'm not at all sure if I'll actually build this list. It's clearly likely to get nerfed at some point so I don't think I'd go out and buy it. I just happen to have these three executioners sat in a box at home, undercoated, waiting to join an army. I think I'd only need to buy Feirros to make the army at 1750 - such is the state of my grey pile of plastic shame. I'd need a couple more stormhawks for 2k.

**godardc**

Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?

**p5freak**

What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

**BrianDavion**

JNAProductions wrote:
godardc wrote:
Do you all play with the supplements ? Or is there anyone playing with just the codex ?
There's not really a reason to NOT play with the supplements-it's a straight boost in power (or at least, gives access to more options) with no downsides. Anything you don't like, you can just not use.

I suppose not using the supplement would be a good way to reduce your armies power when fighting against armies on the lower end of the power spectrum.

**Ratius**

Has anyone been using drop pods of late with their updated rules?
I have four I'd love to root out and try again.

**godardc**

p5freak wrote:
What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

Maybe we don't have the same codex but in mine it is written 4A (5 in charge) at WS2+ rerolling to hit and to wound with D2 weapon, fighting first.

**Nevelon**

godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?

p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.

I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ Elite to fill a slot, he can work, ~~but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.~~ Edit: woops, Elite, not HQ.

But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.

(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)

**godardc**

Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?

**Nevelon**

godardc wrote:
Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?

Woops, my bad. Yes, they are both elites.

The perils of posting over the first cup of coffee...

**Flavius Infernus**

Nevelon wrote:
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?

p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.

I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.

But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.

(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)

Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.

For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.

**Mandragola**

Agree on the Chapion for Brigade filling. He's kind of the cheapest elite slot that actually does something and isn't pure tax. Having the character keyword makes him far more survivable.

**godardc**

Ratius wrote:
Has anyone been using drop pods of late with their updated rules?
I have four I'd love to root out and try again.

I used 3 of them last week against a TS list in the Narrow the Search mission from CA2018. I was going second. They were quite useful in this very precise configuration, but still paying about 200 pts for 3 deep strikes seems too much.
I did almost a null deployment except for a stormraven and some scouts and then deep striked right around the objective with half my army and seized it without any casualties. Couldn't have done it if I had to follow the Tactical Reserve rules or using rhinos.

I'll use the same list tomorrow against I think a Necron army so I'll be able to tell you more very soon.
Keep in mind I don't play very competitively and to be honest I think there are too many way to avoid deep strike now for it to be viable.

**Xenomancers**

Nevelon wrote:
godardc wrote:
Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?

Woops, my bad. Yes, they are both elites.

The perils of posting over the first cup of coffee...

Chapter champion is quite mean. You can even give him a relic.

**Azuza001**

I run drop pods and find them to be quite amazing. There are a lot of ways to use them now beyond just deep striking some troops up. I typically run 2.

It depends on what I am playing against as to what goes in them. Typically I have a las dev team, a grav dev team, and 2 tactical 5 man squads that can go into them. If I am playing guard I put the dev teams in the drop pods and the tacticals start on the table. This way I can deploy my devs in perfect position to hit his tanks no matter how he deploys. Genestealer cults? Drop pods have tacticals. Deploy the pods in a way to make it very hard to deploy his troops from reserves.

I believe in the right list they can grant you a lot of flexibility vs almost any kind of list. You determine who goes in them during deployment which means your strategy can be effective depending on who your facing.