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 godardc wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
+5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though

Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.

How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?

Yes he does !

Kantor’s aura is actually better now. Instead of affecting models within 6” he now affects models in units within 6”. That massively increases the range of the effect.

He’s also switching warlord trait to one that makes every CF model within 6” count as obsec, or double obsec if they have it already.

It’s true that the CF tactic doesn’t trigger all that often, but it’s extremely good when it does. +1 to hit tends to provide at least a 25% damage increase. Where you have penalties to hit, such as with auspex scan or against Plaguebearers, it gets even more powerful. I think my favourite use has been firing hellblasters against a unit of 10 blightlord terminators, though that doesn’t come up too often.

It’s odd that this CT gets criticised so much for being situational when so many other CTs are also situational. The RG CT has almost no effect against assault-focused armies for example, while the UM one does nothing against people who aren’t charging you. The non-situational ones like Salamanders are good, but tend not to benefit Primaris infantry all that much.

The bonuses that Crimson Fists get make them really great against hordes and vehicles. That’s a lot of the armies out there. As someone who’s played Crimson Fists since the first 8th edition book came out, I’m pretty happy with the state of them at the moment.

Anyway there’s no real need to argue about whose tactics are better. I think there’s a use for most of them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - that is a good point. With AP -4 lascannon though...it is almost worthless and very easy to build against. Heck executioners hit at ap-5.

Fists arent going to be favoring lascannons though. Their bread and butter is high ROF weapons where their +damage super-doctrine gets to trigger over and over, and who arent disadvantaged by invulnerable saves pinging off low shot volume weapons.

I'm not sure people who say the CF CT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.

Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - that is a good point. With AP -4 lascannon though...it is almost worthless and very easy to build against. Heck executioners hit at ap-5.

Fists arent going to be favoring lascannons though. Their bread and butter is high ROF weapons where their +damage super-doctrine gets to trigger over and over, and who arent disadvantaged by invulnerable saves pinging off low shot volume weapons.

Yes but other chapters will be favoring lascannons was the point I was making. Plus the next strongest army is probably still eldar who have copious AP -4 also. Sure youll get a 6+ save...still - not that great. 6+ FNP is better in that situation.

Rakdarian wrote:
For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .

Source? Based on this precedence I don't think it will be the case.

Rakdarian wrote:
For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .

It wont. Relentless determination is played at the end of the Movement phase. You cannot disembark, or move at that point. (its the reason you cant move after getting dumped out of a drop pod, and why the pod needs special wording to let its cargo out after it lands for instance.).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not sure people who say the CF CT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.

Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.

He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not sure people who say the CF CT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.

Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.

He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.

Lias is the only one I know of that is decent. Good enough to build a whole army around and still get the good successor traits.

It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?

Dual Chainsword Vets for later chaff clearing and Assault Terminators are a good choice against Knights now that they get an additional attack and that one strat that will let them still hit on a 3+ (aka two hits a Terminator). For the former I'd likely just want White Scars but they're a cheap way to go about getting an advantage from it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?

Terminators?

 godardc wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway

He's saying he would lose access to Calgar and Tigger, which is definitely a good point to remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not sure people who say the CF CT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.

Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.

He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.

Lias is the only one I know of that is decent. Good enough to build a whole army around and still get the good successor traits.

I argue in favor of Huron (probably to be ran as an Imperial Fists successor because it's an artillery list) and using Asterion as a Counts-As White Scars successor, because advancing and charging with a reroll on that charge is pretty darn nasty. I did that recently with a pure Scars list and it did fairly okay actually.

 godardc wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.

Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.

But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway

Only certain relics. Right?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Only certain relics. Right?

They have access to the full list, but only one can be from the first founding chapter.

You can pay 1pc to use the UM ones IIRC
Honoured by Maccragge stratagem

58% is barley better than a coinflip though. It can synergize with a bike Chaplain for extra charge range I guess, but it's still the worst CT IMO. Fortunately the CTs have only been part of the toolbox so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
58% is barley better than a coinflip though. It can synergize with a bike Chaplain for extra charge range I guess, but it's still the worst CT IMO. Fortunately the CTs have only been part of the toolbox so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

They also get the 5+++ from mortal wound shenanigans, even outside the Psychic phase. That's actually a really good value.

Has anyone done anything with White Scars yet ? They seem very rewarding well played.

 godardc wrote:
Has anyone done anything with White Scars yet ? They seem very rewarding well played.

I'm having issues envisioning a build that makes them at all equal to Iron Hands or Imperial Fists sadly. I like me some bikes and melee in my marine armies, but why when you can just blast stuff off the board turn 1 and 2 with heavy weapons?

I went with Raven Guard myself. Similar play-style but less reliant on questionable bikes and I like the anti-character focus.

bmsattler wrote:
I went with Raven Guard myself. Similar play-style but less reliant on questionable bikes and I like the anti-character focus.

Have you got some game so far ? I'm not playing RG but still I'm curious as to how they actually play

Only one so far. I bounced my heavy melee off of a ball of 18 Thunderwolves with Space Wolf character support. I'm not super-experienced, so the artifact that inflicts 'fight last' destroyed me in that fight.

That said, if I had played that game slightly differently I would have won fairly easily. I'm happy with my list, I just need to learn how to play it better.

The amount of pressure that Raven Guard can inflict is pretty immense. For example, my list will put a unit of 6 assault centurions and two units of thunder hammer vanguard veterans with character support into a first turn charge pretty much automatically. If I lose 1st turn, I can fade back after the seize roll to avoid the counter alpha strike.

I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?

I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.

 godardc wrote:
Has anyone done anything with White Scars yet ? They seem very rewarding well played.

I ran a 1k list in a very casual game and was impressed, although I'm very new to 8E Marines and my opponent was working out the bugs in a new Ork list (Speed Freeks box-based), so it was a glitchy game. I ran three different Captains that were all very smash-y, and the ridiculous charge range really shrinks the board and allows you to choose your matchups. Effective HQ delivery, screening, and low model count were my issues.

 Smirrors wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?

I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.

This could work. I think Deredeos are in a really good place now. I definitely think they’ll have a place in my Crimson Fist army. I’m thinking of getting a second one.

Rounding out the last of my templar crusader squads. I've got about 6 bodies. Was thinking of just more bolt-pistol + chainsword boys for my black, mostly footslogging, not-competative-but-geez-guys-I-just-love-building-tactical-marines horde...

...However, I noticed I have a spare lascannon, and 2 plasma cannons, just knocking about...

...What do we reckon to those as just-toss-into-my-collection? I've already got 6 lascannoneers, but no plasma cannon. Or are more just choppy/shooty crusaders better?

Honestly, I'd not build anything Templar-y right now. Wait until the book is out (or magnetize, but plasma cannons might be a little annoying...).