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footfoe wrote:
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.

They already have a character that does the same thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

footfoe wrote:
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.

They already have a character that does the same thing.

Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.

If its a Primaris character, you could also give him the +3 inch aura relic to make that +1 BS more comfortable to fit in.

bmsattler wrote:
If its a Primaris character, you could also give him the +3 inch aura relic to make that +1 BS more comfortable to fit in.

Sadly techmarines are locked to normal marines atm, but if you were running black templar parking lots you could use their relic I suppose.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

footfoe wrote:
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.

They already have a character that does the same thing.

Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.

I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.

 Smirrors wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.

It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW

Likewise unfair to see them priced up because RG and WS can teleport them. And same to Aggressors.

I’m assuming Assault Cents will go up if basically everyone except UM runs them. I dunno about Aggressors unless Cents go up by so much that GW doesn’t want everyone swapping to Aggressors and doing the exact same builds. Everyone says Aggressors are undercosted and too good and then no one takes them. If Cents only go up by like 5pts, then I’d hope Aggressors are unchanged, if Cents went up by more I’d guess Aggressors would need to go up by 2-5 to keep them about even.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

footfoe wrote:
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.

They already have a character that does the same thing.

Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.

I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.

While true, Techmarines are WAY cheaper. That's something to consider.

FAQs are out -

Sallies
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/d4999d16.pdf

Fists
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ded8a1f1.pdf

Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

footfoe wrote:
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.

They already have a character that does the same thing.

Funny to think about this, but Feirros went from OP as heck to kinda gimpy in such a short time. He only gives one unit BS2+ where as the new forge master (less than half his cost) gives a 6 inch aura of +1 to hit for vehicles and auto repairs three as well for 45 points. If you want to make him really durable as well just put him on a bike with a gorgans chain now snipers wound him on a 5+.

I didn't realize this was an aura....Not OP at all. Fair to say it's not really needed. It could be interesing to run a bunch of plasma cannons on dreads and overcharge with outfear of overheat. Overall though - Reroll all hits is just as good.

While true, Techmarines are WAY cheaper. That's something to consider.

It only affects vehicles though. The majority of vehicals I run are BS 2+ anyways. Executioners are really the only bs3+ vehical I ever run anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bort wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.

It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW

Likewise unfair to see them priced up because RG and WS can teleport them. And same to Aggressors.

I’m assuming Assault Cents will go up if basically everyone except UM runs them. I dunno about Aggressors unless Cents go up by so much that GW doesn’t want everyone swapping to Aggressors and doing the exact same builds. Everyone says Aggressors are undercosted and too good and then no one takes them. If Cents only go up by like 5pts, then I’d hope Aggressors are unchanged, if Cents went up by more I’d guess Aggressors would need to go up by 2-5 to keep them about even.

There will be 0 cost increases on space marine units. There will only be rules nerfs - just like iron hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
FAQs are out -

Sallies
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/d4999d16.pdf

Fists
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ded8a1f1.pdf

Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.

Great fixed some broken mechanics. What about the other broken issues. Guess we have to wait for errata.

Kdash wrote:
FAQs are out -

Sallies
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/d4999d16.pdf

Fists
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ded8a1f1.pdf

Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.

Well, not a surprise, Waac raw lost again. Now that everything is settling down I'm curious to see what Salamanders armies will look like

For me, the biggest thing is their write up note on the Sallies FAQ.

Just another re-iteration of “we do play test… not really :wink:”

I like the +1 to hit even on vehicles that are BS2+ to help counteract negative to hits.

Techmarines seem like the big winners. Being able to build your own MoS is nice, and lets Primaris get double prayers. Chief Librarian will be nice for my 32k force w/ no Primaris, but on the other hand 1-3 CP for the upgrade/WLT/Relic is steep.

 godardc wrote:

Kdash wrote:
FAQs are out -

Sallies
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/d4999d16.pdf

Fists
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ded8a1f1.pdf

Big nerfs to Self Sacrifice and Siegebreaker Cohort.

Well, not a surprise, Waac raw lost again. Now that everything is settling down I'm curious to see what Salamanders armies will look like

As a Salamanders player myself I might whittle down my flamestorm aggressors from 6 to 4 or 5 but i dont think this changes too much in terms of how i'll play.

Still planning running 3 flamer invictors and the flamer aggressor squad

Kdash wrote:
For me, the biggest thing is their write up note on the Sallies FAQ.

Just another re-iteration of “we do play test… not really :wink:”

yeah it's really suspect how they printed self sacrifice and didn't expect people to "abuse" it. Even the most casual player could think of the combo right away. IIRC it didn't even exclude characters, so you could just have everyone within 6" of an infantry character be untargetable. Like that would be the FIRST thing you think of, it's not some obscure rule interaction.

What are they doing? This is a brand new book that already has substantial rule changes in an FAQ.

Everyone is speaking about IF but what about the CF ?
Do you think IF are better / more competitive ?
I'm not an IF player nor a tournament one, just curious. The CF bonus seemed good to me at first but there are many way to get +1 to hit at the end of the day so idk

CF bonus is just too situational to rely on, and by comparison to what it replaces (ignore benefit of cover, which is in effect an additional +1 AP against most targets, and hard counters certain abilities that trigger from the benefit of cover) it just doesnt do enough.

Quick question for people that use index entries (I never do) Is it still legal to take index entries with SM 2.0 and get all the supplement/codex benefits?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.

I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.

I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.

That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.

I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.

That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.

Yeah, but you could layer the buffs on a 6man squad abit. Tigurius -1 to hit, tranhuman strat to only wound on +4 when neeeded and ++5 invul from the Apoths makes the aggressors quite tough. Could pull some heat from the rest of your army atleast.

Edit: You can potentionally also ress 2 aggressors every turn if you can make the squad to survive

That's the return of the Deathstars !

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bryten wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.

I agree! Also the relic for Apoths that gives ++5 to individual models within "1 is really sweet. As an UM player I could easily fit my aggressors around him. Another thing I thought abt is to give the aggressor sgt the master crafted relic and kill him on purpose next to banner as often as possible and then ress with Apoths the turn after.

That is just mean. Risky though - if the squad gets wiped you are in trouble.

Yeah, but you could layer the buffs on a 6man squad abit. Tigurius -1 to hit, tranhuman strat to only wound on +4 when neeeded and ++5 invul from the Apoths makes the aggressors quite tough. Could pull some heat from the rest of your army atleast.

Edit: You can potentionally also ress 2 aggressors every turn if you can make the squad to survive

You cant ress multiple models in a multiwound unit with one apo since they only come back with 1 wound so you have to heal him.

Not sure if its that good. Its an elite unit you spend 2 extra CP on and you will still need your 4 HQs. The apo cant really do much without the unit by it self so a bit much of all eggs in one basket.

The techmarine for IH on the other hand saves you 2cp from a CM so costs +- 0 in cp and helps you fill out a cheap detachment. Or lets you have 2 chapter masters if that is what you want or combine against hit modifier lists. +1 to hit is better than a CM for bs 3+ vehicles or against eldar for 2+.

The chaplain and techmarine upgrades both look really strong and not hard to get much value out of.

Apothecaries seem in such a weird spot. You look at them and think they should be an auto include in all these Cent armies, and yet no one takes them. I assume cause you can’t recover a wiped out unit and there is no good way to deliver the Apoth with the Cents.

bort wrote:
Apothecaries seem in such a weird spot. You look at them and think they should be an auto include in all these Cent armies, and yet no one takes them. I assume cause you can’t recover a wiped out unit and there is no good way to deliver the Apoth with the Cents.

They have a Biker option in the Index. That's pretty darn expensive though as that's never gotten cheaper I'm assuming.

That and due to become Legend status, right?

bort wrote:
That and due to become Legend status, right?

And we really don't know what Legends is gonna bring to the table just yet. We have some ideas but until we actually get real info it's pointless to speculate.

If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would work well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?

Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?

Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.

While you shouldn't want to spam either of them (They are pricy troops and better used supplementally) I'd probably go for infiltrators. There are just some match-ups that marines can nearly auto-win with properly deployed infiltrators. Incursors have some okay CC potential with the dual combat blades but its not worth the utility of just having a hard counter to melee heavy deepstrike lists (Blood letter bombs, GSC Ambush, RG/WS Assault Centurions, etc.)

 Bilge Rat wrote:
If I have the choice to spam either infiltrators or incursors, which one is likely to be generally more useful? I had thought mass infiltrators with communications arrays would work well as long as I had the appropriate characters on the board. However, a sample vanguard list that GW had on their site a while back used a larger number of incursors. I feel that the mines and modifier ignoring are too situational, but am I wrong?

Chapter is probably Iron Hands. I know that won't synergise with either, but let's go with it for now.

I keep hearing buzz about combining the Incursor paired combat blades with Gene-Wrought Might and/or Whirlwind of Rage, but I’m not sure how those would interact and I’ve never seen anybody actually try it. You still have to come up with the 6’s on your dice either way.

It seems to me like the points and abilities are pretty well balanced across all three primaris troop choices, so nothing feels like a clear standout in terms of value for cost and whichever you choose is going to be some kind of tradeoff. So maybe a take a mix?

I would say, though, that 10 points feels like a lot to spend for rerolling 1s on a unit that doesn’t have a lot of shots to begin with, especially if you’re buying comms for a bunch of 5-man Infiltrator units rather than one or two 10-man.

It will be really interesting what what happens to legends. Australias biggest tournament in January has already ruled out index so no bike options for us other than captain. Given that index/legends options wont get points readjustments it kind of makes sense to bar them from competitive 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It only affects vehicles though. The majority of vehicals I run are BS 2+ anyways. Executioners are really the only bs3+ vehical I ever run anymore.

Being able to +1 will be really beneficial to airwings that have both stormhawks and stormtalons.

Against flyers before negative mods, stormhawks hit on 0+ with icarus stormcannons and 1+for krak missiles and assault cannons. With rerolls thats going to hurt. And it makes the icarus hit on 3s with ground units.