+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Dynas**

Xenomancers wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.

There are 2 ways.

1 stratagem allows you to pick your doctrine for an infantry or biker unit.
Tiggy's warlord trait allows you to put 1 unit in the tactical doctrine I believe at the start of the turn within 6".

So you can get both of them in the tactical doctrine turn 1 with that build. No problem.

OK thanks. So i can take master of strategy and use the extra WLT to put it on a chaplain for example. Or i guess it wouldn't really matter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Are there anyways to get Tactical Doctrine T1? Im looking at taking Ultramarine Aggressors (2x6) with Chaptaer anceient, chaplian, Calgar and tiggy as a death ball in the middle of the board. Would like to be able to get into Tac Dotrcrine T1.

There are 2 ways.

1 stratagem allows you to pick your doctrine for an infantry or biker unit.
Tiggy's warlord trait allows you to put 1 unit in the tactical doctrine I believe at the start of the turn within 6".

So you can get both of them in the tactical doctrine turn 1 with that build. No problem.

OK thanks. So i can take master of strategy and use the extra WLT to put it on a chaplain for example. Or i guess it wouldn't really matter.

**Vilehydra**

UM may have access to a strategem/relic/WL trait that does so but I'm not sure. Otherwise I don't think so.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?

**ultimentra**

@Walrus I would say magnetize. Sometimes you won't have the CP but you'll have the points. Sometimes you'll have the points to spare but don't want to give up more CP. I find myself in the later camp where I don't like spending all of my CP before the game starts.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Oh I've got the models for both, I'm just tinkering with lists at the moment.

**Dynas**

So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?

**BrianDavion**

Dynas wrote:
So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?

you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.

**Dynas**

Also, if you give honored sergeant mastercrafted weapon to an agressor does it increase the dame of boltstorm gauntlet both melle and ranged. So Damage 2 shooting and Damaged D3+1 in melee.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Dynas wrote:
So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?

you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.

Hmm. So i have old Tact Sgt banner bits, i guess i could put that on a basic Terminator and he is effectively the same.

**Neophyte2012**

Dynas wrote:
Also, if you give honored sergeant mastercrafted weapon to an agressor does it increase the dame of boltstorm gauntlet both melle and ranged. So Damage 2 shooting and Damaged D3+1 in melee.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Dynas wrote:
So is there anything different between chapter Ancient and the Ancient with terminator armor other than paying 3 points for the 5++ invul? Is there a Terminator with Banner model?

you also get a 2+ armor save and a native ability to deep strike. and IIRC the only model in terminator armor is actually in the dark angels termy command squad box.

Hmm. So i have old Tact Sgt banner bits, i guess i could put that on a basic Terminator and he is effectively the same.

I think that is FaQ_ed to have that +1 DMG only on either shooting profile or the melee profile, but not both.

**Xirax**

LVO top 8 is terrible to read.. 1 ork, 1 eldar, 1 imperium soup (BA, IH, admech), 2 RG cent spams, 4 IH with three triple chap dread, 40 stalker intercessor, levianthan lists..

Boris IH list in the other hand looks fun list. Nice to see it in there.

Hope GW understands that SM isn't broken, just certain builds..

**Neophyte2012**

I want to discuss how to do screening the best as Space Marines. Especially against the opponent like Kraken Genstealers, Hormagants, Shining Spears, Harlequin Jetbikes, etc..

The most severe difficulty of deploying a screen of cheap units is being "taken hostage". As far as I know, the way to avoid being taken hostage is space your screen unit a bit. However, against horde units with 20+ models which can spread out forming a real long frontage so your units cannot avoid being taken hostage unless you spaced your units really far enough.

If you spaced your unit far enough away from each other, then there is no real meaning screen. Since your opponents can reliably swept more than 30", potentially covers more than 40", so a large hole on your frontline means enemy unit can and will penetrate through the screen to directly charge your big gun units in first turn.

So how should us deploy our screen against fast moving charging units, some even can fly.

**Slayer-Fan123**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?

That depends. Are you planning to get a Relic on the TH dude? Keep in mind you get access to the more supporting Relics since the TH is an awesome weapon on it's own, whereas you spent your Relic slot on the Sword. I'm also not a fan of the sword in general with Teeth of Terra existing. Against many targets, the three extra attacks are just better, and the times you are wanting the D3, the TH is gonna wound more often.

**Ilgoth**

As my next army, I am looking to form Primaris White Scars. I have never played pure marine army, so I am seeking some advice here.

I am always bit thematic with my list approach. I like flyers. Any tips with such direction? I would love to include some Infiltrators (because the sculpt is lovely).

I don't have many models yet, so no restriction with that.

**Azuza001**

Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.

**Ilgoth**

Azuza001 wrote:
Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.

Local scene has "fun friendly" campaign thing going on everynow and then, and we have more serious tourneys like once in three months. Would be using these for both, hopefully. Just afraid I don't get them painted before Fall, which could easily be 9th edition time? Will see.

Fall back / shoot / charge is indeed neat, sadly just contradicts with where to my understanding Astartes is a gunline army? Jump infantry is a good tip there. I am unsure how good these new Repulsors are? What would be do's and don'ts with them?

**Flavius Infernus**

Agreed: most competitive White Scars lists I’ve seen are built around outflanking centurions.

But, back when the WS supplement first came out, a lot of people were pointing out that a White Scars intercessors spam list could be really powerful, based on the fact that each melee attack does +1D once you get to assault doctrine. So you would just blanket the board wtih 60+ intercessors, shoot for two turns, then pile in and smash everything in close combat after turn 3.

I never saw anybody try it, though.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Black Templars Smash Captain; Thunder Hammer or relic Power Sword? Hammer is S8 vs. S5, Sword hits on 2+ rerollable instead of 3+ rerollable, S5 becomes a much lesser problem with the Vigilus stratagem giving rerolls to wound, and the sword also gets more value from the super doctrine. The hammer is 40 points whereas the sword is 1 CP and 4 points. I'm leaning sword just for thematic reasons, but from an optimization perspective, which would you take and why?

That depends. Are you planning to get a Relic on the TH dude? Keep in mind you get access to the more supporting Relics since the TH is an awesome weapon on it's own, whereas you spent your Relic slot on the Sword. I'm also not a fan of the sword in general with Teeth of Terra existing. Against many targets, the three extra attacks are just better, and the times you are wanting the D3, the TH is gonna wound more often.

Assuming you're using the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem from Vigilus, but no Doctrine and that the Smash Captain in question has the Vigilus warlord trait, the Thunder Hammer does slightly less than one more wound against T8 3+, while the sword does slightly less than half a wound more against T5 2+ (Centurion statline). They're pretty close in performance since although the Thunder Hammer has better strength, it also only hits 28/36 instead of 35/36 due to the -1 to hit.

The Teeth of Terra does slightly more than half the damage of the sword against a T5 2+ target under the above conditions. It does way worse against T8 3+ as well. It's better at mulching through T4 3+ 2W (i.e. Primaris Marines) since D2 and D3 might as well be the same there, but I'm not seeing the dominance of the Teeth of Terra. Smash Captains are generally taken to punch out the ridiculously tough targets, no?

**Dynas**

Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?

**Blood Hawk**

Dynas wrote:
Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?

Assault centurions are basically the better version of aggressors. However they are more expensive and slower. Assault centurions are great with chapters like WS or RG since they can put them in reserve with strats. Most competitive lists are using Assault centurions with long range marksman for 11" range flamers.

For ultramarines, they do have arguably the best aggressors so it may be better to run them over centurions.

To be honest though assault centurions are probably on the short list for Marine models that will probably be nerfed in the not so distant future.

**Flavius Infernus**

Dynas wrote:
Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?

For Ultramarines, aggressors synergize better with the chapter tactics than with other chapters because Ultramarines aggressors get to shoot twice, even when you move, while in tactical doctrine. So Ultramarine aggressors are automatically better than the aggressors of other chapters, who have to use strats or stand still to get the double shots.

Centurions get the better armor save (which gives them some kind of save against everything except -4AP lascannons), the extra wound, and assault centurions get Str10 with no -1 to hit penalty.

But aggressors are a little faster, a little cheaper, and a little less survivable.

So overall they are pretty well balanced in terms of points versus capabilities, with both actually being pretty underpriced compared to other armies and other SM units. But if I were playing Ultramarines, I’d prefer aggressors, both because of the extra shots and also because Ultramarines don’t have a good way to get centurions up the board.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ilgoth wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
Primaris white scar looks like it would be a challenging list to make and play. Is it for fun/local friends type of scene or semi competitive? One thing I have found works well in white scars is jump infantry. Fall back / shoot / charge is really good.

Local scene has "fun friendly" campaign thing going on everynow and then, and we have more serious tourneys like once in three months. Would be using these for both, hopefully. Just afraid I don't get them painted before Fall, which could easily be 9th edition time? Will see.

Fall back / shoot / charge is indeed neat, sadly just contradicts with where to my understanding Astartes is a gunline army? Jump infantry is a good tip there. I am unsure how good these new Repulsors are? What would be do's and don'ts with them?

With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.

**Ilgoth**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.

So given my thematic WS list would decently stacked with Intercessors and then some gunships / interceptors for my flyer love - what there would be missing? I assume these flyers aren't the top tier units since I barely ever see them on lists.

Tactical warsuits, eliminators and aggressors maybe? Hellblasters seem weak to me.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ilgoth wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

With White Scars I would take advantage of Assault Weapon wielding Primaris in that case. Assault Bolt Intercessors are already good, so that would allow them to shoot at almost full strength and charge. Aggressors are excellent as always. As well, i know you're wanting all Primaris overall, but White Scars Vanguard are awesome and i highly recommend them. I like all Chainswords on them.

So given my thematic WS list would decently stacked with Intercessors and then some gunships / interceptors for my flyer love - what there would be missing? I assume these flyers aren't the top tier units since I barely ever see them on lists.

Tactical warsuits, eliminators and aggressors maybe? Hellblasters seem weak to me.

Absolutely take Aggressors. The Warsuit looks good and doesn't sacrifice much if it advances and charges, but I've not tried them myself. Hellblasters I'm not a fan of outside Dark Angels because Azrael.

**BrianDavion**

For as thematic WS Primaris list one thing people are forgetting that is absolutely a "proably worth taking" are impulsors. Grab a pair of impulsors, load em up with hellblasters, move forward and absolutely shread your opponent fast.

**Xenomancers**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Dynas wrote:
Seeing all these Assault Centurions, are they better than Aggressors. Looking at pure Ultramarines chapter. The Scions of guilliman seem to work well with them. Am i missing something for having ultramarine centurions over aggressors?

For Ultramarines, aggressors synergize better with the chapter tactics than with other chapters because Ultramarines aggressors get to shoot twice, even when you move, while in tactical doctrine. So Ultramarine aggressors are automatically better than the aggressors of other chapters, who have to use strats or stand still to get the double shots.

Centurions get the better armor save (which gives them some kind of save against everything except -4AP lascannons), the extra wound, and assault centurions get Str10 with no -1 to hit penalty.

But aggressors are a little faster, a little cheaper, and a little less survivable.

So overall they are pretty well balanced in terms of points versus capabilities, with both actually being pretty underpriced compared to other armies and other SM units. But if I were playing Ultramarines, I’d prefer aggressors, both because of the extra shots and also because Ultramarines don’t have a good way to get centurions up the board.

Honestly Cents compare pretty favorably with aggressors even if they are shooting twice. Because they have natural ignore cover. Plus if you can get them in melee or flamer range it's not even close. They also have longer range by 6 inches with the hurricane. Aggressors are certainly good too I just think assault cents are even better. It is nice that you can slot a 3 man aggressor in for 111 points. That is dirt cheap for the attention they will get and if they are ignored can do some real damage.

Really these units aren't underpriced. They are both slow - have no invune saves and fire a bunch of str 4 shots. Not exactly the end of the world. Their melee stats are purely defensive and easy to avoid - so realistically they shouldn't pay much for them. It is the strats that let you ignore this weakness that are broken. Realistically - those strats are just going to be used on other units and make those units appear broken too if they go about this nerf the wrong way. Even assault terminators start looking pretty broken if you can charge with them turn 1 practically automatically.

For my own experience the assault cents do pretty well for the points they are a good mid line counter charge unit. If opponent wants to kill them before they do anything - it is pretty easy without me spending 2 cp to make them tougher. My personal opinion they should not be infantry. That would also fix any additional issues people have with their cost.

**Ilgoth**

BrianDavion wrote:
For as thematic WS Primaris list one thing people are forgetting that is absolutely a "proably worth taking" are impulsors. Grab a pair of impulsors, load em up with hellblasters, move forward and absolutely shread your opponent fast.

This is a good point, and I think I might go with this route.

For flyers, what you guys think which one to take: Stormhawk Interceptor or Stormtalon Gunship?
- interceptor cheaper, and higher toughness
- gunship has more firepower

I don't have experience in these guys at all. Any game experiences with these? Some good pointers to make an educated decision?

**Odrankt**

Hey everyone. Just have a quick question to ask.

My brothers friend has gotten back into the hobby with his Imperial Fist army but he is kinda blown back by the Codex, Supplements and Psychic Awakening. He asked me if I could make him a 1k list but I don't play marines so have no idea how to make a list for them.

So, just wondering,can anyone recommend a 1k Casual-competive imperial Fist list for him to use. I know he has a lot of the older units and some of the newer stuff like the Primaris Marines from Dark Imperium and 1-2 redemptor dredos. He will more than likely be playing against my brother Tsons and Tzeetch daemons so the +1 damage doctorine won't have much affect but he like wysiwyg.

Thanks in-advance for the help.

**godardc**

I'm trying to get a powerful classic marine list, seeing as my usual opponent are getting though, like primaris Imperial Fists.
I think going drop pods, jump pack characters, thunderfire and grav dev is a good beginning. I'm actively avoid crap vehicles, except dreadnought.
I'm taking plenty of scouts too ofc
What's would be good others units according to you ?
Playing as Ultramarines for the moment.

**Ilgoth**

Odrankt wrote:Hey everyone. Just have a quick question to ask.

My brothers friend has gotten back into the hobby with his Imperial Fist army but he is kinda blown back by the Codex, Supplements and Psychic Awakening. He asked me if I could make him a 1k list but I don't play marines so have no idea how to make a list for them.

So, just wondering,can anyone recommend a 1k Casual-competive imperial Fist list for him to use. I know he has a lot of the older units and some of the newer stuff like the Primaris Marines from Dark Imperium and 1-2 redemptor dredos. He will more than likely be playing against my brother Tsons and Tzeetch daemons so the +1 damage doctorine won't have much affect but he like wysiwyg.

Thanks in-advance for the help.

Imperial Fists are on top right now, so you have lot source materials. You could easily get a decent start going, if you just grab a good 2000 ITC list and trim it down to 1000. This also makes sense since you know what he owns.

For troops, I think he should run Intercessors with Stalker's.

**Dynas**

I'm looking at imperial fist as well, mainly because I love a well painted yellow scheme. And I like the idea of defenders of terra. And they seem to be pretty competitive. Here is my list. I am a bit overwhelmed as well. There are so many relics and WLT and supplements. I read somewhere you can get like 4-7 WLT? and even have some characters with 2?! how is this done? Also, im not finding the Grey Shield thing in the Vigilus INdomitus Crusaders. It doesnt show in Battlescribe which leads me to think im doing something wrong.

Is this list to character heavy? I want the librarian and apocathary to go in the center of the cents and heal them up (and get the 5++) invul. Scouts are cheap obj secure bodies. Stalker bolt rifles for main gunline with Lt and Garadon. Tech Marine hangs out with the Thunderfire and whirlwinds. The thunderfire shoots twice. Can the Relic Whirlwind shoot twice? The keyword is "RELIC WHIRLWIND" but the stratagem is just whirlwind.

Spoiler: