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If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Thoughts on Crimson fists with double repulsor? My 2k list is basically

Smash captain
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)

5x Intercessors
1 X scouts

Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
4 aggressors
2 X eliminators

Executioner
Normal repulsor with lascannons

??

I usually run a list similar to this but instead take an invictor warsuit and a ven dread with lascannons and ML. Only issue is it makes my list very static and a second repulsor could draw fire from the executioner and contemptor?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.

The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.

/rant

So I finally retired a 20 terminator list with an okay record (11-0-4 W/D/L)

Was running 10 shooty, 10 SS/TH as salamanders. I feel I did pretty well but it was a really bulky list to maneuver and in the end wasn't my style of list.

Still the Salamander terminators have some fun combos
2CP for Fury of the first and Crucible of battle for 40 bolters with +1 to hit +1 to wound and RR1's is pretty fun.

Stacking Fireshield, Drake Skin, and Self sacrifice on the assault terminators make them incredibly hard to shift and make the shooty terminators untargetable.

Wise Orator chaplain with canticles of hate and litany of faith is a must.
Teleport homers are worthless in almost all games because they are just so easy to remove.

Anyone else tried to make terminators competitive? My conclusion is that they're close but just not there.

Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.

Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.

Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.

Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.

Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.

Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.

Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.

Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.

Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.

While terminators may compete with centurions/aggressors they don't act in the same. The same logic doesn't actually apply here.
Lets take the units you put forward
- Aggressors have a 3+ armor. This means that having cover and getting a 2+ is a massive benefit. This is not the same for terminators, especially for SS/TH variants
- DevCents are excellent shooters, but poor in CC. They want to (like aggressors) maintain range and therefore benefit more from the cover and -1 to hit. Terminators are a danger close unit, your paying for CC and you need to use to make points back. 12" isn't going to happen all the time (although it will still help with crossboard shooting true)
- Assault Cents have good shooting, excellent CC, but poor delivery methods (with the new restriction on FAQs) but in CC they don't get their cover save benefit, there are plenty of AP1 weapons where this actually matters.

Ravenguard has merit. The cover bonuses are great but they can also be worked around fairly easily.

Terminators may compete with the Aggressors/Cents, but they don't operate in the same manner. Your Logic isn't sound, neither is your statement. Assuming that Terminators must play like Aggressors and Centurions shows the lack of experience with the units.
And really, your going to tell me that giving 40 Boltshots and 4 Krak Missiles +1 to wound for 1 CP is not a good trade?

Anyways, has anyone who has actually played terminators have any other perspectives to add

Nothing to add to that breakdown. Worth an Exalt.

I can say I plan to proxy some in for my Fists for the hell of it, especially now that the artillery and stalker bolt rifle gunline isn't as effective (thank Dorn, that playstyle was boring).

I'll share experiences, but my local is limited to 1200 point CA19 matches while I'm traveling for work. Probably won't be worth much for you.

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any other Chapter basically. Salamanders don't offer anything besides gimmicks. Iron Hands give the shooting ones a better defensive bonus (with the Overwatch bonus and all), Raven Guard make both variants more efficient with their Invul, White Scars TH/SS can Advance and charge (and have stuff to make that even quicker), and of course the Ultramarine shooters can't be tied up if they charge and decide to go away.
Blood and Dark Angels variants still suck though.

Ignoring AP1 is pretty big deal on a 2+ and 2+/3++. Like I've found that alone has stopped them from getting wiped out by lootas or autocannon style weapons.

Have you tried running mass terminators as any of those, because frankly it sounds like your just speculating and going on your weird anti-sally tirade again.
I was looking for someone who has some play experience in the matter.

Raven Guard is the same thing basically on a 2+, except it benefits the regular ones more the moment you run into AP-2. As well, having run mass Aggressors and Centurions, the things Terminators compete with in the first place, the same logic does apply. This has been done with Chapter variants on my end, so I am EXTREMELY confident in the statement i have given.

While terminators may compete with centurions/aggressors they don't act in the same. The same logic doesn't actually apply here.
Lets take the units you put forward
- Aggressors have a 3+ armor. This means that having cover and getting a 2+ is a massive benefit. This is not the same for terminators, especially for SS/TH variants
- DevCents are excellent shooters, but poor in CC. They want to (like aggressors) maintain range and therefore benefit more from the cover and -1 to hit. Terminators are a danger close unit, your paying for CC and you need to use to make points back. 12" isn't going to happen all the time (although it will still help with crossboard shooting true)
- Assault Cents have good shooting, excellent CC, but poor delivery methods (with the new restriction on FAQs) but in CC they don't get their cover save benefit, there are plenty of AP1 weapons where this actually matters.

Ravenguard has merit. The cover bonuses are great but they can also be worked around fairly easily.

Terminators may compete with the Aggressors/Cents, but they don't operate in the same manner. Your Logic isn't sound, neither is your statement. Assuming that Terminators must play like Aggressors and Centurions shows the lack of experience with the units.
And really, your going to tell me that giving 40 Boltshots and 4 Krak Missiles +1 to wound for 1 CP is not a good trade?

Anyways, has anyone who has actually played terminators have any other perspectives to add

The units are absolutely comparable. They're supposed to be survivable (which is debatable but it is how GW sees them), they throw out a bunch of Bolter shots for the points (which is again debatable on the Terminator end) and lastly they strike at a higher Strength value with fists/drills. The only difference is different deployment how efficient said units actually are.

Terminators only have the natural Deep Strike, which isn't too much an advantage since multiple Chapters have ways to fix deployment and make units go places. Ultramarines for example can redeploy three units for a measly 2CP. If you wanted to take advantage of that natural Deep Strike you gotta wait until T2. So yeah it's pretty easy to make the comparison as much as you want to deny it for whatever reason.

Also no being stuck as Salamanders to get +1 to wound for a unit is not worth the trade off of having the utility of any other Chapter.

Deepstriking on the board T2 isn't equal to redeploying in deployment. Assuming they are is another indicator of a lack of experience with the units, because A) they can't get shot at (nor can they shoot) if they aren't on the board and B) they can't react to enemy movement pass the first turn.
Between not actually refuting the fact that Terminators operate differently and assuming that First Turn Redeploy is similar enough to DS really shows a lack of understanding on game mechanics.

But that's beyond the point, I'm interested in new perspectives when it comes to stuff like this (which your 'Salamanders suck' is stale, and has failed to convince pretty much anyone on this board)
So I'll give you another chance and frame this more like a challenge -
Pick whatever chapter you like, and see what you can do with them rules wise. And I'll compare them to what I can do with mine. I'm legitimately curious to see what you come up with.

Also @ Lemondish, GL and don't forget that sweet CQB Bolter Strat on them if they ever get stuck in.

Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.

Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.

It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.

It's not exactly the same but I was very surprised when IF centurions that I has assaulted just shooted in assault thanks to their stratagem: even devastator centurions can be surprisingly good in assault if they can shoot ! :p

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.

Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.

It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.

Oooh I like that, Terminators really do excel when the enemy can get stuck in, and this really does get in their face and locks stuff down. What are the restrictions on the no escape stratagem?
5++ FNP against mortals is also necessary. I've lost more terminators to mortal wounds than all other weapons combined, so having the default 5+ FNP really helps.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.

Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.

It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.

Know what else gets into the opponent's screening units? Artillery. TFCs are already a unit that should be taken, and the Scorpius will have the requirement met of taking another Elite slot. Could do regular Whirlwinds as well but meh.

I run 10 assault terminators (th / ss) and 6 aggressors in my salamander list myself. I make them a successor chapter for extra 3" range and master artisans then walk them up the middle of the table. Terms get +1 toughness and -1 to hit cast on them from a lib while a chaplain is there to grant +1 to wound on the aggressors. Finally master apothecary gives them all a 6+++ and the aggressors a 5++ with the terms using the salamander defensive strat to protect the aggressors.

It's expensive and slow (I also play death guard so I am ok with playing a slow, methodical list style) but t2 that squad typically has the center of the table and nothing wants to go near it or deep strike near them. 11" flamers from the aggressors that can get a maximum of +3 to wound at ap -1 thanks to doctines.... that's an incredibly nasty overwatch or auspex scan waiting to hit. Only downside I have found is its cp intensive and if someone brings along something to mess with your cp like an assassin or raven guard it can get harder to pull off.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.

Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.

It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.

Know what else gets into the opponent's screening units? Artillery. TFCs are already a unit that should be taken, and the Scorpius will have the requirement met of taking another Elite slot. Could do regular Whirlwinds as well but meh.

You know, it would have taken you less effort to not post that at all than pointing out what everyone already knows. None of those units are Terminators. The discussion isn't about optimizing the list to the greatest extent, because if it were "don't take Terminators" is all that has to be said.

Plus, tying up multiple enemy units in melee on turn 1 is a whole different dynamic than just shooting them off the board with artillery. TFCs and Scorpiuses aren't threatening to tie up your big guns on turn 2.

Then again, you don't recognize anything other than min-maxing as a tactical discussion, so this is going nowhere.

Vilehydra wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Could give Black Templars a shot. With a "reroll one or both" charge roll and the +1" to charges/advances Warlord Trait you've got the best odds of any Terminator I know of making it in from Deep Strike that isn't dependent on being in range of a Chaplain (of course, you take both, but still). 5++ save against Mortal Wounds helps shore up that particular weakness, and once you've dropped in you can give extra attacks or 5+ FNP (or both) from Chaplains.

Using a Phobos Captain with the shoot-and-move warlord trait, some forward-deploying Phobos units, and the Devout Push stratagem, you can have one Phobos unit move up, shoot screens, move 6+D6" from the warlord trait, and then use Devout Push to pile in as long as you can get within 1" of an enemy with a 3" pile-in move, letting you "charge" after running (you get no +1A from shock assault, but you also get no Overwatch). This can get you well into the enemy screening units on turn 1, letting you distrupt them and creating an opening for your Terminators to exploit the next turn. Combine with other forward-deploying units (Scouts, more Phobos stuff, Invictors) and you can create a right mess in multiple places along the enemy lines, tripointing as many units as you can and saving the no-fallback Stratagem for one enemy unit that could otherwise get away.

It's probably not going to race through any tournaments any time soon, but you can cause a surprising amount of disorder on turn one for your Terminators to capitalize on.

Oooh I like that, Terminators really do excel when the enemy can get stuck in, and this really does get in their face and locks stuff down. What are the restrictions on the no escape stratagem?
5++ FNP against mortals is also necessary. I've lost more terminators to mortal wounds than all other weapons combined, so having the default 5+ FNP really helps.

2 CP, "Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, when an enemy INFANTRY unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield ROle and is within 1" of any BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn."

Lemondish wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.

The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.

/rant

You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.

Played a 2k tournament this weekend with my crimson fists and things did not go well, lost 1-1-4 being my final score.

Made a few conclusions, venerable dreadnoughts are a bit crap might as well spend the points on another invictor who are great.

Eliminators need to be maxed out ! Only took 2 squads and they were absolutely class. Killing multiple characters and blowing up a few vehicles which were chugging along too.

Infiltrators are a waste of time and points, so expensive and they just sit there doing nothing

Scouts are an easy kill point for the enemy and skills be deployed at the back!

Obviously to most experienced tournament players this stuff will be bread and butter but to me it was a great learning curve.

Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.

What did the list actually look like?

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Played a 2k tournament this weekend with my crimson fists and things did not go well, lost 1-1-4 being my final score.

Made a few conclusions, venerable dreadnoughts are a bit crap might as well spend the points on another invictor who are great.

Eliminators need to be maxed out ! Only took 2 squads and they were absolutely class. Killing multiple characters and blowing up a few vehicles which were chugging along too.

Infiltrators are a waste of time and points, so expensive and they just sit there doing nothing

Scouts are an easy kill point for the enemy and skills be deployed at the back!

Obviously to most experienced tournament players this stuff will be bread and butter but to me it was a great learning curve.

Not sure why you'd think experienced tournament players would agree here. Infiltrators and scouts are some pretty common mainstays for good reason.

May I ask what you did with your Infiltrators?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.

What did the list actually look like?

Smash captain Reid powerfist and imperium's sword
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)

4 X 5 intercessors (2 with stalkers 2 with bolt rifles)
1 X 5 infiltrators
1 X 5 scouts

Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
5 aggressors
2 X eliminators
Invictor warsuit
Venerable dread with lascannons and ml
Repulsor executioner heavy laser

The real problems I was having was that the infiltrators do zero damage and I never know to forward deploy then or to put them in my deployment zone to stop deep strike. My scouts I used badly and kept forward splitting then to grab midfield objectives but they always die rapidly.
Venerable dread I normally love but it just didn't do enough damage.

By far the best 3 units were

Smash captain with relic PF. He was an absolute monster starting in the board then flying out and murdering everything, his kill tally was impressive, think I need more units like him that can move quick.

Eliminators were one of the most effective units by killing multiple characters and even popping a gorkanaught causing it to blow up and kill 3 trukks and a defkopta. One hundred percent including a third unit in the army.

Third would be between the aggressors and the repulsor who were both great.

Things I'm going change -

- Drop the infiltrators, techmarine with master of the forge, venerable dread and scouts. This would force me to simply take a battalion and vanguard rather than double battalion. However I felt most of the CP I used weren't that well spent anyways so I don't mind having less.


- Added to the list - third squad of eliminators, another invictor warsuit so I've got 2 running around at the start of the game. A second aggressor squad is going into the list and finally I'll try to boost one of the intercessor squads up with the remaining points so I can hold objectives better.

DanielFM wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.

The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.

/rant

You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.

IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.

That's alot of dakka.

Rogerio134134 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists aren't a good Chapter to begin with, so that's part of your problem. Their bonus to hit is too specific and relies on the opponent's army choice AND composition. That's not a good combination. Running them as generic Imperial Fists successors choosing to Ignore Cover is awesome if you're doing a lot of Intercessors. Also Ven Dreads aren't bad, you're simply using them poorly is my guess.

What did the list actually look like?

Smash captain Reid powerfist and imperium's sword
Pedro
Primaris lieutenant
Techmarine (warlord)

4 X 5 intercessors (2 with stalkers 2 with bolt rifles)
1 X 5 infiltrators
1 X 5 scouts

Relic contemptor with 4 lascannons
5 aggressors
2 X eliminators
Invictor warsuit
Venerable dread with lascannons and ml
Repulsor executioner heavy laser

The real problems I was having was that the infiltrators do zero damage and I never know to forward deploy then or to put them in my deployment zone to stop deep strike. My scouts I used badly and kept forward splitting then to grab midfield objectives but they always die rapidly.
Venerable dread I normally love but it just didn't do enough damage.

By far the best 3 units were

Smash captain with relic PF. He was an absolute monster starting in the board then flying out and murdering everything, his kill tally was impressive, think I need more units like him that can move quick.

Eliminators were one of the most effective units by killing multiple characters and even popping a gorkanaught causing it to blow up and kill 3 trukks and a defkopta. One hundred percent including a third unit in the army.

Third would be between the aggressors and the repulsor who were both great.

Things I'm going change -

- Drop the infiltrators, techmarine with master of the forge, venerable dread and scouts. This would force me to simply take a battalion and vanguard rather than double battalion. However I felt most of the CP I used weren't that well spent anyways so I don't mind having less.


- Added to the list - third squad of eliminators, another invictor warsuit so I've got 2 running around at the start of the game. A second aggressor squad is going into the list and finally I'll try to boost one of the intercessor squads up with the remaining points so I can hold objectives better.

Hmm, about what I expected. My notes to try and keep things the same are:
1. Autobolt for the Intercessors instead of the Stalkers. Take advantage of exploding 6s.
2. If you don't face too many Deep striking armies, you cam exchange the Infiltrators for extra Scouts.
3. You're going into Double Battalion. While our HQ dudes are good, the Techmarine doesn't help much. Repairing doesn't work when the opponent will just utterly kill a vehicle one at a time. Iron Hands are the exception as they can bring stuff up two brackets sometimes without too much investment. Lose the Techmarine.

Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?

Probably that we need access to so many toys that it becomes hard to actually fit them in.

bort wrote:
Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?

They don't break doctrines for sure so not that at least.

bort wrote:
Hey, what ever happened to using those Inquisitor psykers in Marine lists? It was the hot idea for like 1 week and then I've never seen a single list doing it. Were they determined not good, FAQed to break doctrines, everyone doing best in faction needing pure lists...what?

I know for me it becomes a fluff issue. There are just not that many chapters, in the grand scheme of things, that would pal around with their primarily rivals for supremacy in being beholden only to the Emperor.

How's this for an idea?

Black Templars Assault Centurions and a Chaplain. Run Assault Centurions forward turn 1 (4+3.5"), pop Devout Push (+6" since Chaplain's using the litany), pop Devout Push again in enemy Fight Phase (+6" again). You've now got your Assault Centurions in position for T2 to start doing nasty things. Add Apothecary and/or extra Chaplain for 5++ or 5+++ saves, add the 4+ invuln relic, etc. etc. We've seen what Assault Centurions can do, would this be decent enough?

Could use it on Aggressors as well, but why would you when Assault Cents exist?

Thoughts on inceptors?? Really think my list lacks something that can attack then enemy in the backfield and cause problems.

Thinking of putting in a squad of 4 will bolters and a squad of 3 plasmas into my army and dropping them in with my smash captain turn 2 and just causing havoc in the backfield.