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My initial thought is that each First Founding Chapter should get a thread of their own, or at the very least the Big 4 Non Codex Compliant ones should keep theirs. I know I have been following the Dark Angel one for some time and it definitely feels like different information then this thread.

If there were 10 separate threads though then no one should actually post in Space Marine general and that probably isn't going to happen.

Gonna be interesting to see if other Codex Supplement chapters get units and such of their own down the road, eventually separate discussion areas may be necessary.

This might have already been answered but would the assault intercessors be eligible for the veteran intercessors stratagem?

A 10 man unit in the assault doctrine in the first round of combat would then put out 51 ap-2 attacks

edit: nvm. Megathreads might survive after all

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
This might have already been answered but would the assault intercessors be eligible for the veteran intercessors stratagem?

A 10 man unit in the assault doctrine in the first round of combat would then put out 51 ap-2 attacks

I would say no. The Stratagem targets an INTERCESSOR squad.

Assault Intercessors have the ASSAULT INTERCESSOR keyword instead.

Death by comma.

That might well change with the new codex though, with the cuŕrent datasheet assault intercessor sergeants can't take melee weapons other than a chainsword. Which is clearly rid... oh. Oh no. No, please don't...

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
That might well change with the new codex though, with the cuŕrent datasheet assault intercessor sergeants can't take melee weapons other than a chainsword. Which is clearly rid... oh. Oh no. No, please don't...

Inquisition got him.

But seriously - I expect the Veteran Intercessor stratagem to completely disappear given the new data sheet for Veteran Intercessors in the codex table of contents. My hope is that this is a new kit, because honestly I would be hard pressed to see the value in an Elite unit of Intercessors with +1 A and +1 Ld unless they had some unique options. Plus, it would be a fine new base for a Deathwatch Veteran Primaris Kill Team, so I'm super hopeful.

Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?

I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.

Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?

I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.

Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?

It's not a Stalker bolter. It's a Heavy bolt rifle, the regular version of the master-crafted Heavy bolt rifle the new Gravis Captain carries.
We know nothing about the stats, hopefully closer to a Heavy bolter than to a bolt rifle. Primaris-only Imperial Fists players would love them so much.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Where did you see the table of contents? I assume from the codex video on Saturday?

I’ve seen references to “Heavy Intercessors” to with an image of a Grav captain with Stalker bolter being shown.

Surely we’re not getting that many new kits along with Indomitus the quad bike, turret, bike chaplain, tech marine drop pod bunker thing and the new Gladiator tank?

Nothing about the stats, only that they exist. If I were a betting man, I'd say it's likely the alternate build we'll get out of the Eradicators box.

But based on the table of contents pulled from the video, these are the new units that aren't yet available in any way:

Captain with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle
Primaris Chaplain on Bike
Primaris Techmarine
Heavy Intercessor Squad
Veteran Intercessor Squad
Invader ATV Squad
Storm Speeder Hellstrike
Storm Speeder ???? (text is difficult to decipher)
Storm Speeder ????2: Electric Boogaloo
Firestrike Servo
Gladiator Lancer
Gladiator Reaper
Gladiator Valiant
Hammerfall Bunker

We know of 8 of the above, though no dates for anything. We don't know specifics on anything else except that the blurry picture from last year is likely showing the Storm Speeder, the blurry picture of a bulky BA Intercessor from the codex flip through is probably a Heavy Intercessor, and of course the picture of the Captain with the MC Heavy Bolt Rifle. We also don't really know what Veteran Intercessors means.

Conservatively, it is a datasheet replacement of the Stratagem.

But I personally hope it is a new kit that launches with the supplements and stands in as a way to add some DW Veterans with greater wargear selection.

Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?

Keep in mind that when they kill your impulsor, you can no longer re-roll the 1s to see if your guys inside die.

Aeri wrote:
Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?

For Primaris only, yes.

Lemondish wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?

For Primaris only, yes.

But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?

For Primaris only, yes.

But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.

Or move impulsor to position, weather, disembar, move and charge. You can't charge if you disembark out of impulsor that moved first. If you do it regular disembark you can stay inside safety of impulsor.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Is the impulsor really the best way to Deliver our melee Units?

For Primaris only, yes.

But surely we’d still have to weather a turn of shooting before charging. Presumably we’d have to disembark to cover then charge the following turn? Bit more possible with new Bladeguard I suppose with storm shields.

The Impulsor advances 14+D6" in your turn 1.
It weathers enemy fire on the enemy turn 1.
On your turn 2 you disembark 3" and move 6".
Said unit has now moved ~23+D6" and is free to charge, and has never been under fire directly assuming the Impulsor didn't get destroyed in the previous enemy shooting phase.

Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:

-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs
-Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine

True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...

Speaking of HBs, I'm kind of expecting them to eventually see a change in profile. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, to be honest.

No reason a Twin Heavy Bolter should cost the came as a Heavy Onslaught Cannon when the profiles are identical and you're gaining only 6" in range at the cost of half the shots.

At D2 they'd be pretty much identical, so that's what I'm expecting to see. Just not sure how they plan to roll out a change like that since it will apply to every Imperium army.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:

-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs
-Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine

True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...

I have been looking at the same thing...grav/missile dev cents barely went up in price, net, after the weapons costs are taken into account. I think a lot of folks saw the "headline" massive price increase on the bodies, and didn't do the math on the net of bodies plus weapons. I definitely plan to use mine in that build.

 Verthane wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Noticed some interesting things about how Centurion Devastators are affected by new points and rules:

-Centurion Devastators get the infantry discount for heavy weapons, but don’t suffer the move & shoot penalty.
-Hurricane bolters and centurion missiles now cost the same, so there’s no longer a premium for taking the MLs
-Grav cannons and heavy bolters now cost the same, so there’s no reason to take the HBs (unless you really need the extra range)
-Centurion MLs, as d3 blast weapons, benefit from max hits against any target of 6+ models
-(Not a change, but a synergistic thing) Centurion ML’s are assault weapons, so they are AP-3 during tactical doctrine

True, you’re still talking 85-90 ppm, so not sure if it’s worth it. But I’m leaning Salamanders right now, and Shen has to stand somewhere...

I have been looking at the same thing...grav/missile dev cents barely went up in price, net, after the weapons costs are taken into account. I think a lot of folks saw the "headline" massive price increase on the bodies, and didn't do the math on the net of bodies plus weapons. I definitely plan to use mine in that build.

Not only that but the lascannon/missile dev cents are actually cheaper.

I'm trying to integrate in Outriders and a Captain on a bike with my armor heavy 1500 point list.

What would be the best role for 3 Outriders, (do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)

* Edit: Iron Hands

Stormraven - decked out with dakka and carrying an Ironclad Dreadnought.

Land Raider Achilles - used to carry Assault Centurions in a past list, now just love it on the table.

Techmarine - Used to be Iron Father, but now there for repairs on Achilles.

18 Intercessors - 9 with Stalkers. I want more of them on the table and I want my snipers, but the points bump hurt.

3 Outriders - ??

Captain on Bike - ? (what load out for him......best load out and economic load out?)

Its mainly for casual play so I am looking for that blend of fun and competition. I have never run bikes in any of my lists....and I have been playing since 3rd edition. :-)

 Da-Rock wrote:
I'm trying to integrate in Outriders and a Captain on a bike with my armor heavy 1500 point list.

What would be the best role for 3 Outriders, (do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)

* Edit: Iron Hands

Stormraven - decked out with dakka and carrying an Ironclad Dreadnought.

Land Raider Achilles - used to carry Assault Centurions in a past list, now just love it on the table.

Techmarine - Used to be Iron Father, but now there for repairs on Achilles.

18 Intercessors - 9 with Stalkers. I want more of them on the table and I want my snipers, but the points bump hurt.

3 Outriders - ??

Captain on Bike - ? (what load out for him......best load out and economic load out?)

Its mainly for casual play so I am looking for that blend of fun and competition. I have never run bikes in any of my lists....and I have been playing since 3rd edition. :-)

"(do they need a Captain on a bike......does the list need one?)" No,but the New Chaplain Primaris on Bike will be a nice buff(still no needed).

Outriders seem pretty good all on their own, maybe with FB Bikers/Attack Bikes or new Primaris Invader(Really Cost/haves/wants) as shooty back-ups; but even if we do get a cpt/lt on a bike sooner the Chaplain is the best buff character with litanies.

They are still in the strange place that all Bikers are at: generally good CC abilities but have better shooting buffs/good guns. Twin Bolt Rifles + Bolter Discipline = 12 shots at all times when not engaged on a really fething durable platform(and even two of the worst litanies for a chaplain-sitter will still do wonders with them) that can be doctrines @ ap-2 for 2 turns before committing to melee... if you really really wanted to hold them back for... reasons.

Basically, 1st turn is the only time they perform... less good, but reserves fixes that as does a slight shorter deployment. You want them shooting double shots for the first 2 turns, and you can charge them in in the second(as their guns churned up to better AP), and they are likely to stomp many units in combat, but in third you can get their chainswords churned up the same as the bolters on those heavier armored targets. Reserving their charge until turn 3/4 is both viable and easy with the range on the guns and effect of Bolter discipline without them feeling like a waste of points(vs, say 8 JP Assault Marines used in the same fashion, or 6/7 with the sgt having a real weapon). They effectively function like a Dreadnaught with 12W, only degrading in shots for every 4 wounds and being just a little easier to wound, but having far more attacks on the charge. Iron Hands only adds to the durability.

Really you need more Ranged anti-tank more than anything to make use of Dev doctrine.

Thanks for input....helps a lot.

I am toying with ideas of Imperial Fists, but its not clear to me who works best.

If I had more bikes I would look at White Scars.

I look at the options for more anti tank

What do you think of this Invictor Datasheet someone found in a new box?

Heavy Bolter changed to 1 shot with S5/AP-1/2D — unknown if this is going to be a new weapon for the Invictor, or an updated heavy bolter profile.

Ironhail Heavy Stubbers listed as Heavy 8, S4/AP-1/1D (was Heavy 3 S4/AP-1/1D) — the old instruction book showed the full datasheet, so I don't know if this one is including the shots for both stubbers, but I doubt they're going up to 8 shots each.

Twin Accelerator Autocannon is S7/AP-2/2D (was S7/AP-1/2D)

Incendium Cannon is S6/AP-1/1D (was S5/AP-1/1D)

Hmm was expecting heavy bolters to go 2D, but figured they would keep their 3 shots. They'd keep pace with Onslaught at 3 shots and 2D, which would make the points hike actually make sense.

But then you'd have a ton of 2 damage shooting from the Invictor, so mayhaps they went with a bespoke weapon to remove that balancing issue.

Doubt Heavy Bolters will become one-shot.

More likely they've revamped the Invictors old Heavy Bolter with it's funky Pistol-rule into a "Really Heavy Bolt Pistol"
(Or it's simply a typo.)

If a HB was only 1 shot then a stalker bolt rifle would actually become better due to the extra AP. Sorta seems silly to me.

MinscS2 wrote:Doubt Heavy Bolters will become one-shot.

More likely they've revamped the Invictors old Heavy Bolter with it's funky Pistol-rule into a "Really Heavy Bolt Pistol"
(Or it's simply a typo.)

broxus wrote:If a HB was only 1 shot then a stalker bolt rifle would actually become better due to the extra AP. Sorta seems silly to me.

Totally agree.

While on the other hand, if the normal heavy bolter does go to 2D, it totally explains the massive points increase, especially on vehicle mounted versions.

And since that was a pervasive rumour that went hand in hand with the multi-melta shot bump, I do wonder if there's more to that as well.

There is always the chance that the Invictor's Heavy Bolter is becoming the new "Heavy Bolt Rifle" from the Heavy Intercessors/Gravis Captain with Heavy bolt Rifle.

still kinda meh compared to a unit with Stalker Bolt Rifles as said: Trading +1S for -1AP.

As the Heavy Intercessors are likely an "alternate build" with Eliminators, a 5-man Stalker Bolt Rifle unit would just plain be better for the points(10W vs 9W, Might cost more than 100pts for the Heavy Intercessors, 5 shots with better Ap vs 3 Shots with better Str, etc). They would have to also gain "Total Obliteration" or similar rule to make them anywhere near worth taking over Stalker Ints.

My Silly Crusade Order of Battle (50+10 PL, +1 Warlord Trait, +1 Relic, 1 Req Point Remaining):

HQ
Primaris Captain - Burning Blade + Storm Shield
Phobos Libby - Ride the Winds + Stormwreathed (yes, it's a White Scar army)

Elite
Judiciar (Warlord) - Trophy Taker
Primaris Apothecary (had 3 PL to spare!)
Redemptor Dread - Rocket Pod, Onslaught Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Storm Bolters

Troops
5x Assault Intercessors (Sergeant w/Plasma Pistol
5x Intercessors (1 Aux GL & Sergeant w/Chainsword)
5x Intercessors (1 Aux GL & Sergeant w/Power Sword)

Fast Attack:
3x Outriders

Heavy Support:
3x Eliminators (all w/Bolt Sniper Rifles)
3x Eradicators
5x Hellblasters (Sergeant w/Plasma Pistol)

No idea how this would even perform, but I just thought it would be fun.

Huh. I had missed that the Judiciar is Elite slot, not HQ.

What are the Intercessors bringing to the fight? Assault bolters for more WS benefits, or going for rifles or stalkers?