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2019/08/22 02:30:58
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
As the title says the Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is odd and doesn't make much sense.
A standard Lieutenant in Phobos Armour comes with a master crafted bolt carbine, paired combat blades, and grav-chutes. Grav-chutes seem like an odd choice for a model kitted out like an Infiltrator Marine but ok I'll go with it. He is also one of the few units with Phobos Armour that does not get the concealed position special rule, even Ripley's Invictor Tactical Loader gets concealed positions, but since he has grav-chute he can deep strike on turn two, which is not ideal but workable.
Alternatively you can give him a heavy bolt pistol and a combat blade. When you do gains the Reiver keyword with fits since that's what Reivers can be armed with, but he loses grav-chutes and gets smoke grenades of all things. He loses his deep strike capabilities but doesn't gain the concealed positions special rule to off set his reduced mobility. This means if you make him a Reiver lieutenant he has to foot slog across the board while his Reiver buddies get to deep strike. I know an argument can be made to stick him in a transport but it seems like an unnecessary tax when he comes stock with grav-chutes. You can also argue that since he is a character marching him across the field is relatively safe but again it seems like he is being penalized for choosing alternate wargear.
A better more logical alternative to a Lieutenant in Phobos Armor:
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour comes with master crafted bolt carbine, paired combat blades, and smoke grenades. He also has the concealed positions special rule.
or
You can instead equip him with a heavy bolt pistol and combat knife instead of a bolt carbine and paired combat blades. If you do he loses his smoke grenades and concealed positions but he gains the Reiver keyword and comes be equipped with grav-chutes.
I'm hoping that it will eventually get addressed, but it is games workshop and I should know better.
2019/08/22 02:39:43
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency
2019/08/22 03:12:12
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
2019/08/22 04:03:22
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
This might be quite likely due to the size of the organisation, for while it is still a small fish globally, within the pond of wargaming it appears big.
And my experiences across both small and large organisations is that the large ones have a much greater incidence of one department not knowing what the other is doing, even down to the individual level across people.
The other issue is that those creating under the position of a job are under pressure to perform and this tends to cause a habitual narrowing of the window of perspective. Whereas those of us playing and scrutinising are free to do so outside of work hours and thus are better placed to spot issues either in a micro or macro sense.
Ever lost your keys and been frantically searching while stressed and under time pressure? But then, once your mind is settled the answer suddenly appears unbidden in your mind? Modern workplaces have this issue all the time and a business mindset operates under the assumption that all human activity that is involved in it's favour (usually this is making profit) can come from conscious free-will efforts.
But the reality is that, neurologically and scientifically, it is well proven that large amounts of our behaviour and thinking are informed without conscious consent. In fact some of our greatest insights come from unconscious impulses of a creative nature. Business only recognises this in advertising, where it seeks to market and manipulate people by appealing to their base desires (which they may not even be aware of), check out people like Edward Berneys for examples of where that leads.
Anyway, the point of this ramble is not to excuse poor rules or ill-thought mechanics, but an attempt to explain the seeming incompetence of a profitable and large(ish) organisation who consistently repeats the same mistakes.
2019/08/22 04:29:14
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Quite simply, the Lts are flipped. The Shadowspear Phobos one should infiltrate and the reiver should have grav chute.They really should support like Troops. It's mindblowing that they have it the way it is (well not actually, models dictate rules.....as dumb as GW can be about this)
I personally don't see many people buying the Reiver Lt. He can't infiltrate, he has no grav chute, he has no real role. Why would you buy him? Watch GW change his rules when they see the sales figures on him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 04:29:56
2019/08/22 04:31:50
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
I mean the best approuch would be to let the wargear be more modular and let folks mix and match, It'd nto be that hard to get a grav chute to put on the reiver Lt
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/08/22 05:20:43
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
bullyboy wrote: Quite simply, the Lts are flipped. The Shadowspear Phobos one should infiltrate and the reiver should have grav chute.They really should support like Troops. It's mindblowing that they have it the way it is (well not actually, models dictate rules.....as dumb as GW can be about this)
I personally don't see many people buying the Reiver Lt. He can't infiltrate, he has no grav chute, he has no real role. Why would you buy him? Watch GW change his rules when they see the sales figures on him.
I'll kitbash my own reiver Lt. & give him the grav-chutes & whatever else. Just trying to figure out which phobos pose to use. the running one(reiver) might work out best for me.
2019/08/22 05:31:30
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
This might be quite likely due to the size of the organisation, for while it is still a small fish globally, within the pond of wargaming it appears big.
And my experiences across both small and large organisations is that the large ones have a much greater incidence of one department not knowing what the other is doing, even down to the individual level across people.
The other issue is that those creating under the position of a job are under pressure to perform and this tends to cause a habitual narrowing of the window of perspective. Whereas those of us playing and scrutinising are free to do so outside of work hours and thus are better placed to spot issues either in a micro or macro sense.
Ever lost your keys and been frantically searching while stressed and under time pressure? But then, once your mind is settled the answer suddenly appears unbidden in your mind? Modern workplaces have this issue all the time and a business mindset operates under the assumption that all human activity that is involved in it's favour (usually this is making profit) can come from conscious free-will efforts.
But the reality is that, neurologically and scientifically, it is well proven that large amounts of our behaviour and thinking are informed without conscious consent. In fact some of our greatest insights come from unconscious impulses of a creative nature. Business only recognises this in advertising, where it seeks to market and manipulate people by appealing to their base desires (which they may not even be aware of), check out people like Edward Berneys for examples of where that leads.
Anyway, the point of this ramble is not to excuse poor rules or ill-thought mechanics, but an attempt to explain the seeming incompetence of a profitable and large(ish) organisation who consistently repeats the same mistakes.
Well reasoned and thought out bit of information to digest there, thank you. Honestly it feels good to have a full answer to a random thought and I agree that. It could very well be the case. With how often this seems to happen with GW rules and models that the model is cool, but has rules run contrary to it, or the the rules are great but for a completely different gear set up the model just doesn't have, or even the rules are strange for the set up in general and the model just seems redundant and without a real point to be made at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 05:32:09
2019/08/22 05:50:03
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
That is literally how they do stuff though. Models first, make up rules later.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/08/22 07:45:00
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
That is literally how they do stuff though. Models first, make up rules later.
Which is certainly pretty stupid (see, for example, the fact that Blood Angels can't give a Sanguinary Priest a Jump Pack) but doesn't really explain things in this case. The things that would be required for the Lt to function in each of its roles aren't things that are represented on the model anyway. Concealed Positions/Grave Chutes don't have corresponding things on the model so it's still bizarre that the Lt load-outs are the way they are.
2019/08/22 08:14:22
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
That is literally how they do stuff though. Models first, make up rules later.
Which is certainly pretty stupid (see, for example, the fact that Blood Angels can't give a Sanguinary Priest a Jump Pack) but doesn't really explain things in this case. The things that would be required for the Lt to function in each of its roles aren't things that are represented on the model anyway. Concealed Positions/Grave Chutes don't have corresponding things on the model so it's still bizarre that the Lt load-outs are the way they are.
Grav chutes are actually represented on models. Those vanes you see in the Shadowspear Lt backpack? Grav chute.
2019/08/22 11:18:18
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Ishagu wrote: Reivers are great in a Repulsor as a cheap assault unit. Stick the Reiver Lt in with them.
They are not great. Against most foes Intercessors are better even in melee, as the sergeant can have a decent weapon. And of course if you have CP to burn, Intercessors can even match the extra attack of the Reiver CC. Build. Furthermore, if I despite this would for some reason put Reivers and a lieutenant into a transport, I would use regular Primaris LT with a power sword, as he obviously is much better in melee.
Phobos lieutenant has crap weapons, his only selling point is that he can deep steike into a position. Except the Reiver buld cannot do even that and has even worse weapons. It is an utter failure.
It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
2019/08/22 11:27:52
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
Exactly. Such an easy way to help by pass this stupid gw policy.
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When I got my Phobos Lt from Shadowspear, I converted him to have a Reiver's helmet because I planned on running him with my Reivers, due to him sharing the same movement options (minus the grapnel). However, when the supposed "Reiver Lieutenant" came, and didn't have a grav-chute, that's completely backwards.
They/them
2019/08/22 14:35:21
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Crimson wrote: Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
I do so wish this was their official policy.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2019/08/22 14:51:49
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
MistaGav wrote: It's all simply because the Reiver Lieutenant doesn't have the Grav chutes modelled or packaged therefore ruleswise it doesn't get to have one. It is completely nonsensical but hey, that's GW for you!
Yes. The no-model- no rules idiocy is getting really damaging to the game. All primaris characters are harmed by it but this lieutenant took a critical hit!
Again, I get that they don't want to give rules for things they do not sell at all, but anything that could be easily kitbashed from the bits of the same faction should be allowed.
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party. The current GW models means that if someone goes third-party, its purely to fit an aesthetic that GW dont cover properly, such as super-Spartan style Space Marines, or female Imperial Guard, or AK47-esque rifles. If someone wanted alternate versions of Grav Chutes, they can go out and get some, but the kit comes with them to start so there is no NEED to do so.
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2019/08/22 14:53:04
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Honest talk here:
The whole Phobos character range, as much as I like it, is just...strange.
We have the Reiver Lieutenant with Smoke Grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, and Combat Blade.
We have the Incursor Lieutenant with Grav-Chute, Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, and Paired Combat Blades.
We have the Captain with the Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo-Cloak, and Bolt Pistol.
Librarian with Camo-Cloak, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword.
It feels, to me, in the timeframe since they wrote up the planned Vanguard rules with Shadowspear? They took a different direction and never course-corrected for the models themselves.
It feels like Incursors were planned to get Grav-Chutes and be a more 'commando' choice than the Infiltrators that they shared a box with...but someone waved them off. It's also strange that their only option is the Haywire Mine, no Adept or Comms guy.
It feels like they realized the Instigator Bolt Carbine, which was Heavy instead of the Assault that it is now, wasn't really going to be amazing by itself...which it still kind of isn't, since it's Assault rather than Rapid Fire.
It feels, to me, that the Reiver LT option originally was going to be open to Grav-Chutes but for some reason they made the Grav-Chutes part of the 'kit' for the Incursor variant.
I've written a submission for the FAQ/Errata, hopefully we'll see some kind of insight as to what's going on. There's just a lot of questions that come up and I feel that it isn't simply "No model, no rules".
2019/08/22 15:00:30
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Kanluwen wrote: Honest talk here:
The whole Phobos character range, as much as I like it, is just...strange.
We have the Reiver Lieutenant with Smoke Grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, and Combat Blade.
We have the Incursor Lieutenant with Grav-Chute, Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, and Paired Combat Blades.
We have the Captain with the Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo-Cloak, and Bolt Pistol.
Librarian with Camo-Cloak, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword.
It feels, to me, in the timeframe since they wrote up the planned Vanguard rules with Shadowspear? They took a different direction and never course-corrected for the models themselves.
It feels like Incursors were planned to get Grav-Chutes and be a more 'commando' choice than the Infiltrators that they shared a box with...but someone waved them off. It's also strange that their only option is the Haywire Mine, no Adept or Comms guy.
It feels like they realized the Instigator Bolt Carbine, which was Heavy instead of the Assault that it is now, wasn't really going to be amazing by itself...which it still kind of isn't, since it's Assault rather than Rapid Fire.
It feels, to me, that the Reiver LT option originally was going to be open to Grav-Chutes but for some reason they made the Grav-Chutes part of the 'kit' for the Incursor variant.
I've written a submission for the FAQ/Errata, hopefully we'll see some kind of insight as to what's going on. There's just a lot of questions that come up and I feel that it isn't simply "No model, no rules".
Honestly when I read the Phobos Lt sheet I was genuinely confused, I thought I was just reading it wrong because it was after work. Things are odd. We got 2 troop choices from this release, both wearing Phobos gear. It would have been predictable but I thought we'd only get the one troop option. It's worse since they're both extremely similar (infiltrators and incursors)
2019/08/22 15:23:26
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have this idea that GW writers don't know what game they made and just kinda slap a bunch of stuff on the models and then scribble down whatever sounds coolest at the time. I have to believe that to be the case, as if I made up such rules off the top of my head for a friends model, he'd be on me within moments asking why it makes no sense and no one brought that up to them.
I believe you are right.
Personally I've come to think that GW is milking its social media in a very clever way, which is driving sales. Nothing has really changed about the company or its shoddy business practices, but it appears the opposite thanks to the hard work of the community team.
They put out an inferior product in the rules department, but hey, you didn't notice because.... DUNCAN MEMES! LOOK GUYS! WE KNOW MEEMS!!!! AREN'T WE SO COOL AND DOWN TO EARTH AND HIP? Here, now go buy this mono-pose character for 35 USD. And don't mention how our rules make no sense and our points are poorly calculated. Don't like any of that? Well, here is a brand new BOXSET!!! YAY!! Buy it nOw! Want your Space Marine Codex? Cool! Now you have to buy the Codex and 10 chapter books, for a grand total od 300+ dollars! My, my aren't we so clever? Heck, I bet that is why Xenos have basically gotten no support, they're much harder to carve the content up and sell. No one is going to want individual chapter books for Necrons or Tau. Models aren't that different between Septs or Sects. But Space Marines, or Guard, sign us up for that train of money! Let's get ta' carvin' boyz!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:24:01
2019/08/22 15:36:03
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Honestly when I read the Phobos Lt sheet I was genuinely confused, I thought I was just reading it wrong because it was after work. Things are odd. We got 2 troop choices from this release, both wearing Phobos gear. It would have been predictable but I thought we'd only get the one troop option. It's worse since they're both extremely similar (infiltrators and incursors)
It really is weird that Incursors are Troops. I was expecting Fast Attack with Grav-Chutes or Elites.
Of course, I also thought that maybe Incursors would just be Infiltrators with a different loadout.
Personally I've come to think that GW is milking its social media in a very clever way, which is driving sales. Nothing has really changed about the company or its shoddy business practices, but it appears the opposite thanks to the hard work of the community team.
Spoiler:
They put out an inferior product in the rules department, but hey, you didn't notice because.... DUNCAN MEMES! LOOK GUYS! WE KNOW MEEMS!!!! AREN'T WE SO COOL AND DOWN TO EARTH AND HIP? Here, now go buy this mono-pose character for 35 USD. And don't mention how our rules make no sense and our points are poorly calculated. Don't like any of that? Well, here is a brand new BOXSET!!! YAY!! Buy it nOw! Want your Space Marine Codex? Cool! Now you have to buy the Codex and 10 chapter books, for a grand total od 300+ dollars! My, my aren't we so clever? Heck, I bet that is why Xenos have basically gotten no support, they're much harder to carve the content up and sell. No one is going to want individual chapter books for Necrons or Tau. Models aren't that different between Septs or Sects. But Space Marines, or Guard, sign us up for that train of money! Let's get ta' carvin' boyz!
...cool story bruh?
Most of your complaints seem to be predicated upon lacking impulse control or chasing the meta or, for whatever reason, "needing" to have all the rules. I don't need to have the Ultramarines rules as a Raven Guard player. I'm buying two books, tops. I also don't need to have the Index, because most of the stuff in there is garbage and people just like to whine that they "need" it for some weird cornercase unit that they want to spam. I also don't need to have Forge World rules, cause I don't own any of that nonsense.
The only things I "need" to bring with me for my Raven Guard? Marine Codex, Raven Guad book, Big Rulebook...if I want to.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 15:40:51
2019/08/22 15:38:21
Subject: Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Deadshot wrote: The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits.
We all know why they do this.
The issue is that they are severely punishing their own customers because of it.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2019/08/22 15:40:48
Subject: Re:Lieutenant in Phobos Armour is........odd
Honestly when I read the Phobos Lt sheet I was genuinely confused, I thought I was just reading it wrong because it was after work. Things are odd. We got 2 troop choices from this release, both wearing Phobos gear. It would have been predictable but I thought we'd only get the one troop option. It's worse since they're both extremely similar (infiltrators and incursors)
It really is weird that Incursors are Troops. I was expecting Fast Attack with Grav-Chutes or Elites.
Of course, I also thought that maybe Incursors would just be Infiltrators with a different loadout.
Yes, they both infiltrate, both have S4 bolters, one just auto wounds on 6s and blocks deep strike while the other ignores modifiers (including positive ones) and ignores cover. It basically is a simple gear swap so I guess I can't get too mad but it seems like a waste. Incursors could have had more unique weapons but if they were too good they'd show up reivers haha (which they already do imo)
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